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Old March 20, 2006, 07:44 AM   #51
XavierBreath
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Yes in this thread we all have been assuming that they had firearms and wanted to shoot us. You need to understand that when you turn your back on somebody who does decide to shoot at you, their accuracy is much better than if you retreat while firing back.
No where in this scenerio did it say these attackers were armed with firearms. They might be armed with a knife, a pipe, fists. You assume a gun. You might be wrong.

Most people can run faster forwards than backwards. If you retreat straight backwards, you are presenting just as easy a target as you would running straight forwards. The key is erratic movement, not which way you are facing. I'll guarantee you that you cannot run down the street backwards, hopping fences backwards and shooting your gun accurately as fast as an assailant can catch up with you, or as fast as they can find cover and put a bullet in you when you fall over a fire hydrant.

If a person's only tool is a hammer, every fastner looks like a nail.
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Old March 20, 2006, 08:50 AM   #52
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Answer to 3 on 1 Situation

MOVE!

Tim Burke, bclark1 and British Soldier all have the right idea. Quick lateral movement is most important, preferably toward cover and in a direction that will stack number two and/or number three behind number one so they are in each others way. Once you reach cover, continue to increase the distance between you and your adversaries as long as you can keep the cover between them and yourself. Unless they've already chosen to disengage, they will try to out flank you if you stay right up against it.
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Old March 20, 2006, 09:27 AM   #53
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XB, The thread started with a "depends on weapon" tilt. It evolved into the discussion of which order is most approriate for engaging multiple firearm armed attackers. Either way I'm not a marathon runner and most people aren't either. You might run like a deer but I certainly don't. Running (as in sprinting) is not an option for many.

Quote:
If you retreat straight backwards, you are presenting just as easy a target as you would running straight forwards.
If you aren't returning fire this is true. If you are returning fire it is absolutely false.

Quote:
The key is erratic movement, not which way you are facing.
The key is "duress". Placing your oppenent/s under the threat of death, while gaining distance and seeking cover. Thats a common similarity among many professionals. The difference in shooting ability between someone with and without fear of death is said to be tremendous. Statistics agree that your ability goes down hill under stress.

Please don't mistake my not making a sprinting retreat with not being willing to make a hasty withdrawl prior or during any conflict. I will alway try to retreat if possible. Against armed (don't care how) attackers the best,safest, and correct way is to do so while engaging the them.
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Old March 20, 2006, 09:28 AM   #54
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Capt38, Well said.
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Old March 20, 2006, 02:54 PM   #55
XavierBreath
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OK threegun. I agree to disagree with you.

FWIW if you examine what I have said which you disagree with and what Capt38 has said which you support, you may find that Capt38 and I are in agreement.

But you win. OK?

Watch out for those fire hydrants.
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Old March 20, 2006, 06:05 PM   #56
threegun
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Given these quotes for tim burke I just assumed that Capt38 was shooting as he moved since he said that tim had the right idea.

Quote:
by tim burke In practice, I'd move, and take what shots were offered to me.
Quote:
by tim burkeIf you are facing 3 armed guys and you aren't an IPSC Grandmaster, then I'd recommend that you shoot on the move
I don't want to be right simply because you no longer want to debate. Why not ask some of the gun "experts" if turning and running is better than control retreat while firing at you opponent. You do what you feel is correct........I just wanted to help. I was thankful when I was told the correct way. Some of us get upset when corrected........I apologize for upsetting you.
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Old March 20, 2006, 06:37 PM   #57
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XB, Why do you carry? Since the vast majority of attacks end in the attacker simply leaving you unhurt, why carry. You yourself said that by simply running it will give the badguy.........
Quote:
two choices........pursue you, or find another victim.
So that is why I ask the question why do you carry?
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Old March 20, 2006, 06:59 PM   #58
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3gun

I had to login just to post this: in my close to 2 years lurking here, I've found XB to be one of THE most valuble members of this board.

There's no reason to make it so personal. His advice is sound. You seem to agree also with the retreating part. Calm down. Why carry? Why, I'd think most everybody carries for the same reason, to protect oneself.

Sorry, but I got real irked when I saw you attacking XB.

Severian, logging off until I'm again moved to speak (it'll next be in the rifle section, as I'm planning to get some type of AR by this summer)
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Old March 20, 2006, 07:12 PM   #59
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If I may........

Quote:
XB, Why do you carry? Since the vast majority of attacks end in the attacker simply leaving you unhurt, why carry. You yourself said that by simply running it will give the badguy.........
Quote:
two choices........pursue you, or find another victim.

So that is why I ask the question why do you carry?
For that 1 in a million chance that you cant outthink, outrun, or outplay an assailant. They are for saving your life not your dad-gum manhood.
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Old March 20, 2006, 08:05 PM   #60
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Thank you gentlemen.

I had written a rebuttal, but I have chosen not to waste my time. After a prior post review, it seems the ignore button is the proper response.
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Old March 20, 2006, 09:28 PM   #61
Edison Carter
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If a man CAN'T move when faced with 3 attackers, he is in trouble.
If a man WON'T move when faced with 3 attackers, he is a fool.

If you think it's more important to shoot badguys, than to avoid
getting shot, maybe you need to reevaluate your priorities.

If you have not done the Tueller drill at 7, 5, and 3 yards, you can't
possibly understand how 3, 2 or even one dedicated attacker can
pummel you, or stick a knife in your chest, before you can draw and fire.
You WILL lose, you MAY die. About the 20th time you get beat over
the head with a rubber stick, maybe you'll be smart enough to MOVE!
At least that was my experience.

Walking laterally? Walking backwards? Yeah, whatever... walk on your
hands if you think it'll work for you. I don't trip over as many things
when I walk in the direction my body is pointing... but YMMV Whatever
your THEORY, try it out with a friend who is either armed with an air
pistol, or a rubber stick and THEN tell me your way is better.

The bad guys are not going to be obvious from 20 yards away.
They'll come from behind cars, or one will be "innocently"
panhandling, or they will converge from concealment. Even if you
think you are so good that you'll see them coming, the chances are
really good that one fine nite, you'lll be surprised with 3 thugs within
3-5 yards.

Maybe you feel fine with a tie in a real gunfight, none for me, thanks.


EC
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Old March 20, 2006, 09:39 PM   #62
tshadow6
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mult. bad guys

I was trained to shoot each bad guy once, then shoot them all again. If you leave one guy un shot, he has time to reach you and kill you.
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Old March 20, 2006, 10:28 PM   #63
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Not attacking anyone, just asking questions and debating differences. XB has been very respectful to me and I believe I have been the same to him. I have 15 years of tactical education and never has it been recommended or even suggested to turn and run. If I can't recommend what I understand is the correct course of action the why have a forum? Is it better to remain quiet while a fellow ccp holder does what most pro's say not to do? Prehaps I should offer a 3 sentence disclaimer on how my post is not intended on harming, insulting, degrading, bla, bla, bla. Just a debate or an exchange of ideas to see which is right, better, ect. Anyway turning and running is not recommended by most professionals and that is a fact. If you accept it cool if not cool to.

P.S. XB please don't bruise so easy dude, I meant you no harm.
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Old March 20, 2006, 10:53 PM   #64
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threegun,
I will give you one tidbit if you are willing to click and read. You may go here to learn more about my view if you are interested in challenging your own thoughts.

Unless you are a LEO, I believe you have been sold a false bill of goods. Shooting instructors are unable to sell DVDs and classes on survival. They are able to sell DVDs and classes on shooting. Thus, they teach shooting, not survival. There have been many who learned that shooting skills are not the same as survival skills. Most of them never get the chance to tell what they learned to late.

You have neither bruised me nor upset me. You are simply being ignored.
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Old March 20, 2006, 11:03 PM   #65
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Ima thinkin that the first rule would be to shoot and move and cover to take away the advantage. Probably realize that you might take a hit.
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Old March 20, 2006, 11:08 PM   #66
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XB Thanks

for your thoughts on your site -- good stuff and simple to understand.
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Old March 21, 2006, 07:08 AM   #67
threegun
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XB, We completely agree (after reading your link) up and until you suggest that I should turn and run from someone armed with a gun. The reason that I have chosen to carry is because I don't want you or anybody else controlling whether I live or die. I don't want to have to hope that the BG doesn't decide to shoot as I turn and run. We do know that if he does shoot while my back is turned his aim is better. Yes distance and cover are friends but so is duress.

If my prewarning sensors are functioning then retreat, running away, hiding, whatever are all desireable to confrontation since the escape is before my life is in danger. If all my pre warning sensors failed and 3 armed attackers got within striking distance of me I will engage them while retreating to cover. This we might disagree on but thats okay. By carrying I have chosen to risk death on my own terms to preserve my life. I believe you have also chosen to risk death by carrying. We just have different terms thats all.
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Old March 21, 2006, 10:53 AM   #68
Glenn E. Meyer
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Loren Christensen (a police writer) in his book Far Beyond Defensive Studies quotes a study (without reference though) that if one decides to run, one might as well run straight line away as it was found in trying to hit a running target most shooters were so crappy that zig-zagging made little difference.

This makes sense if a person is running at an angle to the shooter as lead times screw up most.

Second, for controversy's sake, there is a school of thought that the standard cliche of moving to cover is counterproductive. The reasoning is that moving to cover takes time in which you are not shooting or shooting crappy. Thus, another doctrine is to take cover behind your bullets or 'take the fight to the BG' by just shooting them as fast as you can. Cover may be far away or not really cover to most rounds.

The original scenario is ill determined anyway.

Facing three opponents - well:

1. Are they behind cover?
2. Are you behind or really near cover?
3. Did they catch you by surprise?
4. Do they have guns drawn?
etc.

All determine responses, such that there is no one answer.

It is also informative to have done such exercises with opponents that shoot back. Matches against three cardboard warriors are fun but not really enough, IMHO.

I have some limited experience for a fat old civilian in this.

I found:

1. If you come around the corner and there are four opponents with various weapons at a few yards- they just kill you. What a surprise - you get a round off and then you are hosed. When you turn to run, you are hosed in the back. The practice rounds hurt and it is a lesson to remember.

Oh, one should have pied the corner and seen them - unfortunately, I was behind shot up where I was so speed was important. Sometimes, you just are screwed.

2. If you have cover and concealment and the BGs have to come to you, you can pull it off.

3. If you come around a corner and two guys approach you rapidly and start shooting (Steve Moses and Lee, IIRC) - you fight and then sort out the wounds. This was payback for shooting Lee when he was trying to show how at gun point you can avoid the shooter by a move. The mistake was that I was left handed and he moved into my response rather than away. Thus, in FOF, rather than approach me for the typical interaction - Steve and Lee just shot me as I walked into the room. I managed to get good hits on both but took a graze to the noggin and one in the arm - might have made it. I was then out of ammo and was going to continue by beating them with my gun (using a technique Steve taught) but we stopped then.

I have said repeatedly, the identification of the best target because of what gun they are carrying, is absolute ninja bullcrap. You don't have time to do it unless you are secretly observing them.

You don't want to have to reverse directions to shoot someone based on gun type. When you shoot multiple targets, reversing direction is a slow down as you use the gun's bounce to get you down the line.

Also, these scenarios seem to have the implicit assumption that the dudes just stand there like bowling pins. If they spread out and move as they shoot at you, that's trouble.

Moving in a direction off line so that you reduce your vulnerability to the entire set of shooters makes sense - so move at speed. Retreating - does that mean moving backwards? You are such a target. Our Tueller drill exercises shows that consistently, the off line movements are the way to go.

Let's face it - you are going to DIE, DIE, DIE with any competent shooters. You are doomed!!!
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Old March 21, 2006, 11:47 AM   #69
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Glenn, Standing your ground to hide behind your bullets? I agree that it would allow you to put the most accurate fire thus putting the most duress on your opponent/s. Then you lose the bonus survival points for distance between you and attacker/s. You also lose bonus survival points for getting to cover if available. So confusing?????? I'm going to continue to retreat while firing while backing towards cover if availible as practiced mucho times. When in doubt do what the professionals do.

Your FOF had you getting beaned while retreating so running is out. Seems maybe, perhaps, possibly, your 1-1-1 is the way to go. Give everyone involved a superfast leak then finish as needed. Duress by fire,pain,and possibly non functioning circuits. Thank Glenn
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Old March 22, 2006, 01:44 PM   #70
David Armstrong
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I have 15 years of tactical education and never has it been recommended or even suggested to turn and run.
Perhaps, as has been discussed elsewhere, your "tactical education" is lacking some important elements.
Quote:
Is it better to remain quiet while a fellow ccp holder does what most pro's say not to do?
Given your admitted lack of professional training I'm not sure where you come up with claims regarding what most professionals say. A large number of courses I've attended have included the instructor saying something to the effect that if you can run away then you should run away, as that is the best chance for your continued survival unless the BG is armed with rifle or shotgun.
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Old March 22, 2006, 02:42 PM   #71
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David, As you are well aware much of my tactical knowledge came from men who have attended some of the most prestigious schools around. I also watched video's from several top instructors years ago. Read some books too. Never did anyone ever advocate turning your back and running from an armed attacker. They did suggest running if doing so was out of the line of fire but never turn and run. Well maybe things have changed in 3/4 decade.

Let me ask you David if you have professional instructors telling you to turn and run from armed attack and pro's telling you to retreat while engaging the threat and seeking cover, which do you believe? Who is right? Sucks to pay the big buck only to have to completely opposite views on such and important decision. I mean its not like some pro's advocating dropping the mag compared to a tactical reload, this is heavy.
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Old March 22, 2006, 04:55 PM   #72
David Armstrong
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David, As you are well aware much of my tactical knowledge came from men who have attended some of the most prestigious schools around.
Sorry, but I am not aware of that at all. What I am aware of is that you brag that you have never had any formal training and that you have never participated in FoF, yet you seem to think you have a good grasp of tactics in spite of many highly qualified people disagreeing with you.
Quote:
Sucks to pay the big buck only to have to completely opposite views on such and important decision.
Not for me. It simply points out that there are multiple solutions to problems and that one should not get locked into a one-size-fits-all response.
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