The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old March 17, 2006, 02:14 PM   #26
invention_45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2006
Location: Broward County
Posts: 972
3gun: you're right about the slow motion effect really being your brain running faster than it ordinarily does. It's from adrenaline.

So you have a lot of thinking time you wouldn't imagine you'd have in a second or two.

That's why training, knowing the law, deciding the whether-to-shoot issues are so important. This super processing power should be used to make tactical decisions, not strategic ones.

That's one of the reasons I like the scenarios that get posted, often by Doug.38. Sometimes they make me think through things I hadn't before, and probably should have settled before the shooting starts.
invention_45 is offline  
Old March 17, 2006, 03:26 PM   #27
Anthony2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 360
Of course confrontation is last resort!!!!

Personally, I would double-tap the closest threat first...all the while keeping in mind that the remaining BG's will be closing the distance rapidly...and address each accordingly.

Solve a potential armor problem...Practice double-tap head shots!

After all the survivors tell the tale...if the BG's don't survive ...
__________________
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."-Voltaire

"Baaa or Freedom!" - Ted Nugent

"Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth." - Ghandi

"The Addiction to Guns, The only addiction to ever SAVE a life!"- Me
Anthony2 is offline  
Old March 17, 2006, 03:30 PM   #28
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 3,058
I would put one in each, then repeat. One hit is better than no hit, I think
too many of us think of stopping power in terms of a lightning bolt, better to
think of it like pulling the plug on an electric motor-it will run for a few seconds but will shut down PDQ. Granted in a gunfight everything looks different-the muzzle of a .25ACP pointed at you looks like a 12 gauge and time seems to slow down.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old March 17, 2006, 03:34 PM   #29
Musketeer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2005
Posts: 3,731
Stephen Wenger's book I believe addresses this question. He is also a regualr poster on www.Packing.org

The bottom line is you want to get one in each ASAP. At least if they are not down they are seriously hinderred. He documents at least one officer who, when facing multiple attackers, duly applied two tot he first while the second killed him. It may only take a second or less to put that second round into the first target but you are assuming you have that time. You want to even the odds up as fast as possible while minimizing the chance that you get shot. For that reason you apply one to each and then repeat as needed. MOVING would also be a very good idea.
Musketeer is offline  
Old March 17, 2006, 06:15 PM   #30
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Anyone time a draw and fire on 3 targets or a 1-1-1 ? I saw a video posted on sightless in philly and the guys shot a 2-2-2 drill in 2.14 seconds. Thats pretty good if the hit were decent. I'm curious as to the difference in time.

We all know that putting an adversary under duress will see his skills erode in a hurry so maybe a 1-1-1 is better than a 2-2-2 against three armed opponents. I'm gonna start a thread with just that question.
threegun is offline  
Old March 18, 2006, 11:13 AM   #31
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,611
You cannot speed up basic object recognition times. A lot of the slowing down effects people report are after the fact memory reconstructions.

Novices in the world of visual perception don't understand the reaction time processing models.

I will repeat, that if you are faced with multiple opponents, your best bet is to starting shooting rather than wasting a 1000 milliseconds for evaluation of guns. Shoot one and move on.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 18, 2006, 11:17 AM   #32
OBIWAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,340
With the emphasis on MOVING

There are too many variables for any hard/fast rules

Moving off the line of fire (hopefully towards cover) will pay the most dividends

As for those that are double tapping each one.....how do you like that revolver now?
OBIWAN is offline  
Old March 18, 2006, 12:09 PM   #33
Tim Burke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 1999
Posts: 551
Quote:
You cannot speed up basic object recognition times.
Not only can you not speed it up, I suspect once you have a definitive threat you will have a difficult time even assessing the other 2 until you have somehow dealt with the first threat. The oft cited tendency toward tunnel vision is not necessarily affected by multiple potential targets.
Quote:
A lot of the slowing down effects people report are after the fact memory reconstructions.
How do they know this? I've experienced the slowing down of time, and the novelty of it registered on me as I was experiencing it. I've also experienced gaps in my memory after the fact... and I'm sure that is ripe for the brain to "create" the filler to smooth out the memory.
__________________
TB., NC
Tim Burke is offline  
Old March 18, 2006, 12:28 PM   #34
Tim Burke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 1999
Posts: 551
Your capabilities effect the correct answer for you...

You know, you can evaluate the original question somewhat objectively if you know what you are capable of doing.
For instance, let's say you are capable of a 1.4 second draw, .2 second splits on the same target, and .3 second splits transitioning to another target.
If you go 2-2-2, it will take you 1.4+0.2+0.3+0.2+0.3= 2.4 seconds before you get the first shot on the 3rd target. If you go 1-1-1, it will take you 1.4+0.3+0.3= 2 seconds to get a hit on the third target. Now, what percentage of BGs will be incapable of making the shot in 2 seconds, but can make it in 2.4 seconds? Probably a significant percentage, and if one of them is 3rd in line, you are going to regret going 2-2-2. Now, if you are a speed demon, and you can do a 0.5 second draw, 0.15 splits, and 0.18 transitions, you are looking at 1.16 vs 0.86 seconds. You can probably beat all 3, regardless of how you approach it. And, if your draw is 4 seconds, it probably doesn't matter how you do it either, because all 3 of them will likely get hits on you.
__________________
TB., NC
Tim Burke is offline  
Old March 18, 2006, 01:37 PM   #35
atlctyslkr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 613
Big issue is what gun are you using to mitigate this threat? If I'm using a 5 shot snub I can't put two rounds in each BG without a reload. I'll have to do 1-1-1 and then do a tactical reload (ditching two live rounds but trading for 5). I'm more likely to try a reload if I'm behind cover than if I'm not. Say one drops then I'll do a 1-1 or 2 in the remaining. Then the issue of a reload is forced.
atlctyslkr is offline  
Old March 18, 2006, 03:43 PM   #36
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Tim B, You just hit my dilemma square on the head. The trade off of .0something secondfor the higher potential that badguy's one and two will be neutralized. If I shoot only a 1-1-1 and badguy #1 (the closest) doesn't stop is that better or worst that the extra tenth's given to badguy #3. Tough choice.
threegun is offline  
Old March 18, 2006, 07:47 PM   #37
Tim Burke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 1999
Posts: 551
I don't count on 1 shot (or even 2) neutralizing a target. However, I'd like to think that a hit on a target disrupts its ability to shoot back significantly more than it just hearing shots being fired. Consequently, since I doubt I could get multiple hits on all 3 before any one of them can return fire, I'd settle for 1-1-1, in theory. In practice, I'd move, and take what shots were offered to me.
__________________
TB., NC
Tim Burke is offline  
Old March 18, 2006, 09:00 PM   #38
Shakazulu
Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2006
Posts: 81
There is only one absolute to this question. PAY ATTENTION. Don't get yourselves into a nasty situation like this. Watch what goes on around you, watch people. Use streetsmarts and so forth.
Shakazulu is offline  
Old March 19, 2006, 12:02 AM   #39
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,611
Reaction times are pretty standard items of study as are perceptions of time. The time it takes to shift attention from target to target is about 40 msec. The time it takes to move the gun off target to next target is going to be fairly constant in most situations. If anything, with more targets, your time to more to the next target usually slows down a touch. Tim has a good analysis.

I've experienced the crystal clarity of an incident and it's clarity sometimes increases after the fact. I think we are mistaking a focus of attention for a time slowing. No one looks like they are moving in slow motion like the movies. People sometimes estimate event filled times as longer, but that doesn't mean things really were going in slow motion.

My comment is that throwing in the often said shoot the most dangerous person first is going to really slow you down if you did not evaluate and plan the sequence of fire before you start to shoot. If you are surprised, just start shooting one at a time.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 19, 2006, 06:43 AM   #40
Nortonics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2004
Location: Murderapolis
Posts: 521
This is how I'd do it - or at least hope this is how I could do it:

www.the-roberts.info/gallery/albums/GTFriends/collateral.mpg

Yeah, it's just a movie, but I gotta' say Cruise's shooting form in this movie is outstanding. Speed with precise overwhelming firepower - practice makes perfect...
__________________
Tom.

Last edited by Nortonics; March 19, 2006 at 07:38 AM.
Nortonics is offline  
Old March 19, 2006, 07:58 AM   #41
texgunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 185
Most BG's are cowards

If the 3 BG's are typical street thugs they are very likely to run away if one of their own gets shot. Of course you can't count on that, they could be on meth or crack, but most criminals are cowards by nature.

Having said that, the situation described would be a very fluid one. Action following opposing reaction. I would take out the most immediate theat then deal with the other 2 if they don't run. And keep moving, you're harder to hit.

Tex
texgunner is offline  
Old March 19, 2006, 08:18 AM   #42
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
Quote:
With all the storys out there about how "one or two shots didn't drop the bad guy", what would be the best tactic to shooting at say three opponents attacking you?

Run.

Seriously.

Three people cannot run full speed abreast for long. When they give chase, they will string out. Hop a fence. The fat guy in the back won't be able to get over it. Throw something in their path. The leader falls over it and gives up the chase. The middle guy gives up because the leader gives up. He didn't really want to have to deal with you anyway, so he acts like he is helping his friend while hurling curses in your direction.

At the very least, by running, you string your attackers out to where they must attack one at a time, and you can deal with them one at a time.

At best, you may get away with all your ammo.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old March 19, 2006, 08:58 AM   #43
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,934
Quote:
Shooting at multiple opponents
Shooting at opponents is the only way I could win at golf.
wayneinFL is offline  
Old March 19, 2006, 10:48 AM   #44
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
XB, Running is the best way to get shot in the back. Controlled retreat while engaging the badguys is better. Retreat to the nearest suitable cover. Besides if I'm going to get shot, I would rather get shot fighting back. Before my lights go out I might be able to kill the sorry sucker who shot and killed me.
threegun is offline  
Old March 19, 2006, 11:13 AM   #45
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
Quote:
XB, Running is the best way to get shot in the back
You are assuming they are armed with firearms, that they want to kill you, and they are excellent marksmen, able to hit a zig zagging target while on the move themselves. Yep they might get lucky. They might get lucky if you stay and fight too.

Remaining in a conflict is the best way to get killed, whether you are armed or your assailant is armed. Removing yourself from the conflict gives your adversary two choices........pursue you, or find another victim.

Most strong arm robbers will simply vacate the immediate area and find a more compliant victim elsewhere when a victim flees. They will not be targeting you personally. If you resist, you remain in the conflict. If you flee, a simple robber will not risk murder charges by shooting you in the back when he can find a more compliant victim easily.

As long as you have not been personally targeted by the mob or the Crips, there is a good chance your attacker will simply wait for a more willing victim. If you have been personally targeted by the mob, the Crips, or Al Quaida, then you should address that issue prior to venturing out on your own.

The goal when attacked on the street is to survive, not to be a big man.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old March 19, 2006, 11:46 AM   #46
OBIWAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,340
As you move to cover the only real option you have to "spoil thier aim" (other than movement) is to shoot back

Yes, with multiple opponents you are likey to get shot

Most of the "tactics" discussed here center on you NOT getting shot

But just like you should NEVER count on a single hit to stop an attacker, your mindset can allow you to continue the fight even if you have been hit.
OBIWAN is offline  
Old March 19, 2006, 11:58 AM   #47
GSD
Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2006
Location: Grattan, Michigan
Posts: 16
I think the 1-1-1 and then back will give the best defense/offense in this situation. We are all just thinking of our own speed and how fast we can get the kills, but we also need to take into consideration what the 1-1-1 shot will do to the BG speed. If they see that you are shooting at them all, they will duck, hide or slow down their own attack. But if they see you are focusing on one target, they will increase their attack.

I'm sticking with the 1-1-1.
GSD is offline  
Old March 19, 2006, 05:18 PM   #48
delta58
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2005
Location: Florida panhandle
Posts: 128
I'd use my claymore first and then I would toss a couple of frag grenades that way just for good measure.(just kidding) but if I had them I would. 3 to 1 odds are not good I would run ( firing as you retreat)and take cover and engage from there.
__________________
Doug Helms
<><
"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." Ben Franklin.
delta58 is offline  
Old March 20, 2006, 12:36 AM   #49
Anthony2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 360
"I will repeat, that if you are faced with multiple opponents, your best bet is to starting shooting rather than wasting a 1000 milliseconds for evaluation of guns. Shoot one and move on."

Yes, that's true...but what about evaluation prior to drawing your weapon?(if the situation permits)

Just a thought... ....
__________________
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."-Voltaire

"Baaa or Freedom!" - Ted Nugent

"Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth." - Ghandi

"The Addiction to Guns, The only addiction to ever SAVE a life!"- Me
Anthony2 is offline  
Old March 20, 2006, 07:01 AM   #50
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
XB,
Quote:
You are assuming they are armed with firearms, that they want to kill you, and they are excellent marksmen, able to hit a zig zagging target while on the move themselves. Yep they might get lucky. They might get lucky if you stay and fight too.
Yes in this thread we all have been assuming that they had firearms and wanted to shoot us. You need to understand that when you turn your back on somebody who does decide to shoot at you, their accuracy is much better than if you retreat while firing back.

Quote:
posted by obiwanAs you move to cover the only real option you have to "spoil thier aim" (other than movement) is to shoot back
Quote:
posted by delta3 to 1 odds are not good I would run ( firing as you retreat)and take cover and engage from there.
Absolutely right. Never give your opponent a "free" shot especially at your back. Turns them into Wyatt Erp real fast.

Anthony,
Quote:
"I will repeat, that if you are faced with multiple opponents, your best bet is to starting shooting rather than wasting a 1000 milliseconds for evaluation of guns. Shoot one and move on."

Yes, that's true...but what about evaluation prior to drawing your weapon?(if the situation permits)

Just a thought... ....
I asked a similar question. If I know what guns the guys have prior to the draw the shotgun man is getting it first. I'll take my chances with the pistol guys rather than giving the shotgun man the extra time. Glenn's response will be that just thinking about a firing order will take time(and I agree), time that is better spent shooting. I thought about it but decided that either way somebody is going to get extra time, either through the delay caused by thinking (as glenn suggests) or by the shooting order (the last guy will get extra time before his turn arrives). Given this fact, I personally want the shotgun knocked out first. I believe that it gives me the best chance of survival. JMHO.
threegun is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12741 seconds with 7 queries