The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old March 15, 2006, 11:01 AM   #1
Doug.38PR
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2005
Posts: 3,298
Shooting at multiple opponents

With all the storys out there about how "one or two shots didn't drop the bad guy", what would be the best tactic to shooting at say three opponents attacking you?

1) Double Tapping each of them?
2) Single shooting each of them enterchangably?
3) Starting with one and keep shooting until he drops?
4) Other suggestion
Doug.38PR is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 11:56 AM   #2
HangFire83
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Howell, MI
Posts: 323
I would shoot the first/closest threat until he went down, drop the mag, empty or not, put in a new mag, and proceed to the next threat. Rinse wash and repeat if necessary.
__________________
" An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."

Jeff Cooper.
HangFire83 is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 12:03 PM   #3
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Are they armed and with what?
threegun is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 12:18 PM   #4
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
All else being equal, the guy in the middle gets it first because he's probably the leader and taking him out might dis-orient the others. his right, your left, would be next
All not being equal, shotgun first, rifle second, handgun last, knife inside 21ft.
As to how many shots per scum bag, you shouldn't even be asking that question because your training should be an automatic TAC-TAC. You won't have time to ponder such a question and your automatic reflexes, built by training, should kick in.
garryc is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 12:18 PM   #5
swmike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2005
Location: Marysville, WA
Posts: 658
If all armed equally, closest first. Shoot til down. Engage next closest. If all are armed differently, most lethal first. For example, three BG's, one with knife, one with shotgun, one with pistol. My sequence would be shotgun, pistol, knife.

All this being said, real life will be totally different. Probably will engage the first to cross my sights and then to the next in the arc as I swing to engage.
__________________
My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target.


"In God we trust, all others are suspects."

"If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help".

____________________________________________
swmike is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 12:31 PM   #6
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Pull out the 2-2-2 drill, blow the smoke from the barrel, and reholster LOL.

Shotgun,rifle,handgun, if armed with a firearm. If all handguns the closest to farthest. edged weapons and bats also closest to farthest. Double taps for all then re-tap anything still a threat. That is the plan. If the charging rhino doesn't fall or stop after the DT the priority is to end the closest threat or the deadliest threat.
threegun is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 02:01 PM   #7
Tim Burke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 1999
Posts: 551
If you are facing 3 armed guys and you aren't an IPSC Grandmaster, then I'd recommend that you shoot on the move. Even if there is no cover, a moving target is harder to hit. Maybe you can line up the 3 of them, so that only the one in front can engage you; it is always theoretically possible to line up 2 of them.
If you are thinking about the shooting order, you are probably not shooting as fast as you can... or as fast as you need to be.
__________________
TB., NC
Tim Burke is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 02:37 PM   #8
choochboost
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2005
Location: orange county, ca
Posts: 610
Double tap each of them as fast as I can. There's no way, I'm going to keep shooting at one guy until he goes down and allow the other two to enjoy the fact that there are no rounds yet coming at them. I want all three of them to sense danger ASAP. Their forward movement will likely stop as they'll be more concerned about ducking for cover. After the three-way double tap, the next guy who gets it is the one still posing the biggest threat.
choochboost is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 02:49 PM   #9
Hard Ball
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 1999
Location: California
Posts: 3,925
A properly done series of "double taps" is almost as fast as a sinle shot on each target. The double tap is far more likely to put an attacker down than a single hit so fire double taps as fast as you can.
__________________
"I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."
Hard Ball is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 03:09 PM   #10
bclark1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,531
if you can identify an instigator or leader you're most likely to end the situation getting rid of him. if someone had been doing most of the talking or clearly made themselves out to be a leader, and you're not in imminent danger from one of the others, you're best served in cutting the head off the snake. of course to justify lethal force, that means he must have already escalated it, in which case the cronies are probably moving too. so, as with everything, being able to assess and address a variety of situations realtime is more important than a conditioned response. do a little of everything when you train, if you think there's any situation where you might really need to do it.
bclark1 is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 03:33 PM   #11
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 2,884
Just carry a Glock 18 and mow them all down!

If there are multiple opponents who are armed with firearms, I would have to be very convinced that they are going to shoot me before I even pull my gun. Even with only one person having a gun trained on you is a major threat. You have to draw, aim, and fire while your threat only has to pull the trigger. Now you have to think about multiple opponents having weapons. Needless to say, unless lead is already flying or definately about to fly, leave your weapon holstered. Material possesions can be replaced... you cannot.

Now if you are talking about contact weapons, I say shoot the closest person. Hopefully the other bad guys think better of it and split while they can. If only one person has a firearm, I would take him out if I thought I could. If you get caught in the crossfire of a gang fight, the best thing to do is go for cover and not draw attention to yourself. It is better than having both sides shooting at you!
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 03:43 PM   #12
The British Soldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2005
Location: England...that green and pleasasnt land.
Posts: 295
Quote:
if you can identify an instigator or leader you're most likely to end the situation getting rid of him. if someone had been doing most of the talking or clearly made themselves out to be a leader, and you're not in imminent danger from one of the others, you're best served in cutting the head off the snake. of course to justify lethal force, that means he must have already escalated it, in which case the cronies are probably moving too.
Intelligent advice; well met bclarke1. This piece of timeless wisdom originated with Blair Mayne, a British SAS Major in WW2 who offered the advice to a colleague regarding entering a room full of enemy;

"Kill the first one who moves or talks - he has started to think and is, therefore, dangerous!"

By contrast...

Quote:
I would shoot the first/closest threat until he went down, drop the mag, empty or not, put in a new mag, and proceed to the next threat. Rinse wash and repeat if necessary.
How many magazines do you carry? A Bandolier full?
__________________
Mike

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains
And the women come out to cut up what remains
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

Rudyard Kipling.
The British Soldier is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 03:49 PM   #13
atlctyslkr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 613
I'm with Mr. Burke there. I think the haul a$$ approach may be your best bet. I generally try think logistically when I'm in parking lots, gas stations ect and look for things that could help me out and buy me time like vehicles, dumpsters, stand alot ATM's ect. I wouldn't even try to take out three armed people. I'd use my ammunition to buy me time on the path of my escape route. Unless these people are out for me specifically I doubt they will give chase. Sometimes retreating may be the best bet. Property can be replaced but people can't. Also if I had family with me I'd be concerned about getting them and others out and less about being Wyatt Earp.
atlctyslkr is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 04:05 PM   #14
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Atl, Wise advise but the question was how to engage multiple opponents. I would run if possible myself but once that possibility has gone byebye how would you handle three opponents to best keep you alive?
threegun is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 04:16 PM   #15
atlctyslkr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 613
If backed into a corner as you allude to I would shoot the closest first. The closest person threatening me has the greatest chance of harming me but I have a better chance of hitting them and stopping that attacker. Then I would move on to the next one. I would still be looking for cover, alternatives, ect the entire time. Some other issues in the post reference each attacker having different arms (knives, shotgun, handgun ect). That's a whole different set of variables. I have to hope that if that ever happens I'll be able to caclulate the right choice in the split second I'll have to do it. There are numerous things that could go wrong for me but one thing I always think about is the fact that things can go wrong on the other side too. Criminals have their guns jam, misfire, lock up ect just like us.

I've talked to many LEP in my time and I've heard on several occasions that many criminals that use firearms in their crime have never used the firearm they are carrying (they got it from a buddy, stole it ect) and are not well versed with it like you and I are. Also I was told that many have NEVER FIRED ONE AT ALL and hope that the sight of it will do the job. I don't know about you but I wouldn't put my life on the line with something I'd never tried. I know this is a long winded response and it's kind of a compliation of things I think about when I'm out and about.
atlctyslkr is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 04:27 PM   #16
Runsalone
Member
 
Join Date: March 27, 2005
Posts: 54
Three guys intent on Killing you are probably gonna do just that. Very doubtful theyed give you the opportunity to do anything about it in the first place. You would be walking along and the lights would go out, and if your lucky youd wake up In the E.R. missing wallet, watch, CHILDREN, WIFE...etc.

The way to deal with three attackers is to NOT get into that situation in the first place.

Handguns are not the SOLUTION they are a last ditch resort when Plan A,B, and C all fail.

Self defence should be a social art first, a handgun is a FIRST thought for those not willing to develop that skill.

All that being said ......three on one in a gunfight, and possible just if there armed with anything, is an assasination of the one guy. If it HAS come down to that your probably going to get shot/cut/hit/stabbed. The BEST POSSIBLE outcome is to survive..TO LIVE THROUGH IT.

If there is a guy with a gun he WILL shoot you before you can shoot him. Unless youre a ninja. If theres a guy with a knife close enough, its HIGHLY POSSIBLE he will cut you before you can shoot him-or during shooting him.

The best bet, and I say best loosley, is to fire on the guy who is most able to cause you immediate damage, despite the results-shot -cut-hit. Then haul a$$ as best as you can hobble with your new bullet/knife/blunt trauma wound to the nearest saftey.

Keep fighting and running. Until for whatever reason you can no longer.



Kinda makes just paying attention sound a little more worthwhile dont it?



Im really not trying to rant or flame, maybe I just needed to get this out of my system. I understand thinking about scenarios, but sometimes if youre gonna carry, you have to really wake up and look at it.
Runsalone is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 04:36 PM   #17
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Atl, I once tried (just for fun guys) to shoot gangsta style with the gun canted sideways. I couldn't hit snot with it. While we are usually forced to respond to danger (meaning the badguy made the first move) and thus already at a disadvantage, once the shooting starts we regain the advantage again because of our training. The badguys as you stated usually have little or none.

With my luck the badguy who attacks me will be none other than Rod leatham Jr LOL.
threegun is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 04:49 PM   #18
Runsalone
Member
 
Join Date: March 27, 2005
Posts: 54
Quote:
and thus already at a disadvantage, once the shooting starts we regain the advantage again because of our training. The badguys as you stated usually have little or none.

Underestimating someone who is trying to kill you would seem a mistake no? You HAVE to be skilled in order to hopefully survive, all the BG has to be is lucky, and as was stated they already have the drop.

Predetors have something we dont, the apptitude to prey. On people. Added to an already present disregard for Law and right. A bad enough BG will have this down to an art, you will be needing a lucky break to survive an encounter like the one described, and unfortunately the attackers wont be handing them out.
Runsalone is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 05:26 PM   #19
CabinJohn
Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2005
Location: NW Mass
Posts: 61
Multiple opponents

As two of my instructors have said, "its just like Thanksgiving - everyone gets one helping [one shot] then go back for seconds as needed". Yes, double taps are almost as fast as single shots, but the key word here is "almost". Shootings are often won or lost in fractions of a second. It may be only a fraction of a second difference between three single shots and three double taps, but that fraction may mean the difference between winning (survival) and losing.
__________________
"Only criminals, dictators and democrats fear armed citizens."
CabinJohn is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 07:06 PM   #20
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,681
One thing that always interests me in these scenarios is someone saying that you should shoot the person with the most lethal weapon first or the closest person first.

In matches, you get some knowledge of the appropriate tactical order unless you are shooting a blind stage.

But in the real world, I know that trying to analyze the weaponery or nuances of position will take a bit of time. I would estimate about a 1/4 to 1/2 second given standard object recognition and decision times. That's a lot of time to get shot.

I might suggest that you need to get off the X as James Yeager is fond of saying. Farnham says the same - start doing stuff.

I would suggest that you need to move as Tim said and put a round in each person. Forget thinking about the weapons type. You don't need to be doing fine distinctions of type and distance.

If the person is so far away that you can easily judge this, then you might not shoot him or her. But the difference between 5 and 8 yards, for example - so what. If one person has a 1911 and the other a shotgun, so what - both are going to shoot you unless you act, rather than putzing around in your visual cortex parvocellular object recognition stream. Use your magnocelluar stream to send a round quickly into the big blob and then the next big blob, etc.

At the NTI, I had the unfortunate luck to run into four guys - one with a fully auto airsoft gun, one sims shotgun and 2 sims handguns. I had a J frame. I fired one shot and then I was hosed. It was rather painful through a t-shirt. Wah, wah!

I think it is equally important to reduce your target status as shooting. Tim was correct - time to move.

In IDPA tactical order, the second guy isn't shooting you as you shoot the first. That's because he is cardboard.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 15, 2006, 10:07 PM   #21
armedandsafe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: Moses Lake WA
Posts: 1,001
Move and COVER (and I don't mean Elbows Over Ears.) Fire while moving, even though it reduces your chances of lethal hits. The one time I had to take on multiple shooters, I had the advantage of some BIG rocks to hide behind. I still had to come up to shoot back, however. Sphincter Cramp time. We were pistols against M1s until I slithered back to the car for the 03A3.

Pops
__________________
Armed and Safe: Not just a theory

If it time to bury them, it is time to dig them up.
Remember, "Behind every blade of grass."
armedandsafe is offline  
Old March 17, 2006, 12:03 PM   #22
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Glenn, Theoretically the last guy in your one shot each sweep has the best chance of putting accurate lead in your direction. I would much rather have the guy with the weapon most difficult to hit me with take that shot.

The time you estimated should have already been eliminated having already made the decision to fire on all three.

In the close call that I have had (thankfully I didn't have to shoot) my brain processed so many things in under 1/2 second that it was incredible. My draw at that time was sub 1/2 second from buzzer to gun clearing the counters at work. When a customer pulled what later turned out to be a bb pistol from under his coat and pointed it at a coworker before asking if he could pawn it (admittedly to scare to coworker) I drew my gun, thought how big the gun was that this guy is pulling, thought about front sight, thought how skinny this butthole was pulling his gun and feared missing, and finally realized that the gun was fake before firing. Everything was in slow motion to me despite my partner saying that I looked normal. If I looked normal then everything was over in just over 1/2 second because I didn't make it to his shoulder area before ending the encounter. Some have said that the brain in times of trouble shuts down unnecessary systems and speeds up others. I now believe it as well. I also belief that the slow motion feeling is mealy your brain processing information much faster then you are used to. Giving the feeling that things are taking to darned long.

Maybe you are correct I don't know but man did I do an aweful lot of thinking and quick. My little pea was smokin afterwards LOL,
threegun is offline  
Old March 17, 2006, 12:07 PM   #23
gunmoney
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2005
Posts: 381
Practice the ultra tactical Run Away!! Do it as rapidly as possible
gunmoney is offline  
Old March 17, 2006, 12:28 PM   #24
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Really the odds ain't very good facing three guys.
threegun is offline  
Old March 17, 2006, 01:22 PM   #25
HangFire83
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Howell, MI
Posts: 323
Quote:
How many magazines do you carry? A Bandolier full?
I don't carry....yet! But why not have a spare mag. Is that unheard of? Everyone here only carries one mag, so when your out your out? Doesn't sound to prepared to me. Maybe I am just crazy. I DO admit that "tactic" is not great for three or more people. But if you do have to shoot multiple rounds at the first guy why not pop in a new mag so that there are no surprises when on of his buddies pulls his gun.
__________________
" An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."

Jeff Cooper.
HangFire83 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13456 seconds with 7 queries