Ammo misinformation

[pturner67]

OK. I have been reading and reading. I guess all of us newbies need to do that.

I have read 2 opposing opinions about ammo and power/recoil....someone has to be wrong on this conflicting info

One guy was complaining about 158 gr 357 ammo and the harsh recoil...just like I was...from the reading I have done, some say go to a larger grain (like 180) to lessen the recoil on 357 ammo...others say go with something like a 110 gr 357 load to lower the recoil...and I have read the same conflicting info on 38 loads too...now, last night I went to the range and fired 110 38 as well as 158 38...the recoil on the 110 grain 38 was greater than the recoil on the 158 grain 38

so...what is the real deal? within each caliber, how does the 110, 125, 158 grain effect the recoil?

thanks in advance for any helpful info

[ISP2605]

All depends on how they're loaded. A 110 gr +P wlll have more recoil than a target load of 158 gr loaded with 2.5 gr of Bullseye.

[pturner67]

OK. Let me simplify things a little more then.

Assume it's only Federal. Hydra-shok. Apples to apples. Now, what does the 110, 125, 158 grain do to the recoil?

[dave0520]

110 grain will be more snappy, but the 158 wil have more push. Most would probably be more comfortable with 158's.

[ISP2605]

"Assume it's only Federal. Hydra-shok. Apples to apples. Now, what does the 110, 125, 158 grain do to the recoil?"

Lighter bullets generally produce less recoil than heavier bullets if fired from the same gun. Think back to your high school physics.

[jasond]

you may just feel more flash and bang from the lighter bullets.
if it bothers you either way though, i'd save the money and shoot .38s

[Webleymkv]

OK, since we're talking strictly of self defence loads the heavier loadings will have more felt recoil. If, theoretically, the 125grn loads were pushed much faster (I'd say 1700-1800fps from a 4" barrel) then they would most likely have more felt recoil than heavier loads but there is no need to do so so nobody does. The lighter bullets will have more muzzle blast however because the bullets are going faster. A typical 125grn load goes 1400-1500fps while a typical 158grn load goes 1200-1300fps (from a 4" barrel of course). I prefer 158's because I will put up with more recoil in order to lessen muzzle blast.

[pturner67]

found this info online:

357 load...4" barrel

gr velocity energy

110 1295 410
125 1450 583
158 1235 535
180 1145 524

38 load...4" barrel

110 950 220
125 975 264
158 800 275


interesting...look at the 357...at first, energy goes up, but then drops

now, look at the 38...energy consistently goes up...but when I fired my 357 with 110 gr versus 158 grain, the recoil was noticeably higher with 110 grain

is this inconsistency normal??

[pturner67]

I think I am seeing what you guys are saying...velocity plays a part in recoil...maybe as much or more than energy

[cje1980]

I think I am seeing what you guys are saying...velocity plays a part in recoil...maybe as much or more than energy

Energy has very little to do with felt recoil. A 125gr. 357Mag load has more energy than a 158gr. 357Mag load but the 158gr. will definitely kick harder. A 115gr. 9mm load has much more energy than a 147gr. 9mm load but the 147gr. load will definitely smack your hand harder.

All of this is really subjective. Recoil velocity is always a constant but other factors throw things off a bit. If a load has a lot of flash it could be perceived as being uncontrollable while not necessarily having a lot of recoil. In general the load with more momentum will have more recoil. I've found that this simple formula comes within a few percentage points of calculated recoil when factoring in W, V, and powder weight. The formula is MV/225120, which is a measure of bullet momentum. So if you were to compare how much less recoil a load has compared to another you will find that this formula will come within maybe 3% of actual calculated recoil figures using more specific information. So lets say a load has a momentum of .62(158gr. 38Spl+p and another has a momentum of .85(158gr. 357Mag). You can make a pretty good guess at how the loads will compare in felt recoil. Again other factors will play a role but this will give you a very good idea.

[Majic]

Energy has very little to do with felt recoil. A 125gr. 357Mag load has more energy than a 158gr. 357Mag load but the 158gr. will definitely kick harder.

Energy has quite a lot to do with recoil. The high intensity 125 grainers that Remington put out in the past had quite a bit more felt recoil than the 158 grainers. Generally a 158 grainer is much easier to shoot than any 125 grainer pushed to 1450 fps (from a 4" barrel).

[cje1980]

Generally a 158 grainer is much easier to shoot than any 125 grainer pushed to 1450 fps (from a 4" barrel).

That hasn't been my experience. Its simply physics. The load with more momentum is going to recoil more. Maybe some people might perceive a 125gr. load to have more recoil than a 158gr. load but the 158gr. is physically creating more recoil. Like I said its a really subjective thing.

[pturner67]

"Energy has very little to do with felt recoil." -vs- "Energy has quite a lot to do with recoil."

"Most would probably be more comfortable with 158's." -vs- "Lighter bullets generally produce less recoil than heavier bullets if fired from the same gun." -vs- "...the heavier loadings will have more felt recoil."


wow...this is what I am talking about...opposing views...one is right...one is wrong...physics isn't subjective...and I'm in no position to agree or disagree with any of them...any ammo experts here?

[ISP2605]

Why don't you just buy some of each and try it for yourself.

[gpence]

wow...this is what I am talking about...opposing views...one is right...one is wrong...physics isn't subjective...and I'm in no position to agree or disagree with any of them...any ammo experts here?

I'm not an ammo expert, but for ages, the shooting and scientific communities have tried to find a perfect measurement of recoil. Unfortunately, no one has been able to come up with an acceptable metric for doing so. What's left is a subjective measurement called "felt recoil". I agree with the previous suggestion -- buy different loads and try them to see what works best for you and your firearm of choice. With the passage of time and the increase in your experience, you'll probably find that you have a different appreciation/opinion of "felt recoil" than you do now.

gpence

[cje1980]

wow...this is what I am talking about...opposing views...one is right...one is wrong...physics isn't subjective...and I'm in no position to agree or disagree with any of them...any ammo experts here?

I understand your feeling and you're right physics isn't subjective. I said earlier in another post that calculated recoil is always a constanct. If you were to put all the load information into a recoil calculator the 158gr. 357Mag would definitely come out on top of the 125gr. load. Other factors come into play though. If a load is really loud or has a flash, it can inspire thought like, "Wow that load was really nasty". While some people might be able to control 158gr. loads better that is probably due to their lower sound report and non-existant muzzle flash. When I first shot a 357Mag revolver I shot 158gr. loads that scared me to death. I started practicing with 125gr. loads and I wasn't nearly as intimidated and I could actually hit the target with them. Now I don't have any problems with either load. It actually is quite simple though, the load that requires more force to stop(more momentum) is equally going to require more force to launch. I don't think you will find any silhoutte shooters using 125gr. loads. Most will be using 180-200gr. 357Mag loads because they are better at knocking down targets. They clearly have more ability to knock down a target, thus they will also put more of a pounding on the shooter. A popular 357Mag load for silhoutte shooting is a 200gr. bullet going 1100fps, which makes less energy than a 125gr. load but has much much more momentum. The load with more momentum is going to push the firearm more, its all about how a person perceives this push though. The 45ACP and 9mm have similar energy levels. The 9mm has more velocity yet the 45ACP produces more recoil. This is due to it having more momentum.

[barnetmill]

Isn't recoil velocity of the gun normally calculated by Mass times velocity of bullet divided by the mass of the gun.

However this equation leaves out several factors.
One important factor is the mass and velocity of the rapidly expanding power charge. Lighter bullet and higher velocity loads have bigger powder charges. This force can be significant as is evidenced by the use of muzzle brakes in some pistols and rifles.

[svtruth]

someone has made a vise connected to a scale or load cell and measured actual force vs time.

[cje1980]

This force can be significant as is evidenced by the use of muzzle brakes in some pistols and rifles.

Sure when we are talking rifles that are putting out 5000+ft/lbs of energy and using 100gr. of powder. I don't think its really significant in handgun calibers though. A light and fast load might use maybe 2-3 extra grains of powder, which isn't nearly enough to make up for the mass that it lacks. Simply divide bullet weight x velocity and divide it by either 7000 or 225120, which will give you two forms of the calculation for bullet momentum. This will give you a good idea of how much recoil a certain load will have compared to another.