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Old February 20, 2007, 09:06 AM   #51
vostracker
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Derby; Bud, up until now, I thought I have been civil with my comments and thoughts. Sure I got fired up with the statement that the "drug war is a joke" comment. From your stated views about the situation and not being a LEO dealing the problem, I see you have no real knowledge about whats going on, on the street. Your statement that my family is dysfunctional is out of line. To bad you live in Kentucky, I would like to meet you and talk to you face to face. If you ever visit Oklahoma. Look me up and we can continue this issue.
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Old February 20, 2007, 09:14 AM   #52
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If you aren't in a dysfuunctional family then what would you call it? It looks like some major denial going on from this side. I'm not trying to be harsh with ya.
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Old February 20, 2007, 10:52 AM   #53
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Derby: Unfortunatly something has been lost in the communication. My response to the issue was to try to inform those who are not LEO's about the real life issues I have seen and experienced. Telling you about my son's addiction was to let people know that even with a good moral christian upbringing things happen that are out of the parents control. Drug experimentation can be catasthrophic. I'm not one to throw stones. In my youth I smoked my share of weed and currently enjoy a beer with the guys now and then. On some parts, I agree with you and Osbourn. Government officials do try to regulate issues which infringe of individuals rights. (Such as fast food fat, smoking, etc.) Unfortunately, until laws are changed LEO must perform their duties to the best of their ability. In reqards to my injury from the meth lab, that is something that comes with the dangers of the job and I hold no anger about it. Sure it sucks, but I have recieved other injuries during my career and my feeling about them are the same. It comes with the territory. Possibly legalization might work. I dont think it would. My reasoning for that is the misuse of prescription drugs.
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Old February 20, 2007, 12:41 PM   #54
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Meth legal!?!?!?

Sad to say I've seen what that stuff does to people. A childhood friend of mine unfortunately got into that @%$* and now his brain is oatmeal. I think Charlie Daniels said it best..."If I had my way with people sellin dope i'd find a big tall tree & a short peice of rope & i'd hang em up high & let em swing till the sun goes down."
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Old February 20, 2007, 12:44 PM   #55
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"Obviously. I own my body. If I obtain something to put in it of mutual conscent, without infringing on the rights of others, I have the right to consume it."

Okay, I feel the same way about many products. So, why as a tax payer do I have to pay for your medical problems when you exhaust all your resources feeding your drug habit? Then you start robbing stores to get the cash to pay for the legal drugs.

There is no recreational use of Meth beyond perhaps the first time. You will be addicted after a couple uses. Period end of story.

Zoning? Zoning would not work or stop your next door neighbor from having a meth lab that does not have a business license to operate. They would simply say they have the lab for personal use just like a still to make alchoholic beverages. Either way, legal business or not, the house still has a high likelihood of burning down and their family will be exposed to hazardous chemicals. Who pays for that? Insurance company? Medical costs for burns?

Maybe have a day for free disposal of meth chemicals at the local city collection area? (Just like paint, right?). If these people were required to dispose of the chemicals correctly, few would do it as it is VERY expensive. A 55 gallon drum of hazardous waste disposal costs $500 up. It has to be tested and manifested? You know how to do that? Some has to be incinerated and there are only a few places in the country that can do it. The result is that there would be more illegal dumps and it would not be household garbage anymore, it would be hazardous waste and the tax payer or landowner would have to pay for it. You want that?

The whole business is way beyond the average person's abilty to grasp even if the cooking of meth was legal. I am firmly in the enforce the law to the max camp when it comes to meth cooking and use.

I can live with pot being legalized for persons over 18 years of age.
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Old February 20, 2007, 01:49 PM   #56
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You're a narc for 24 years, you have an addict son?
It happens much more frequently than you might think, Derby. Ever hear of Preacher's Kid Syndrome? Cops' kids are often an offshoot of that.

One of the biggest problems facing kids is peer pressure. When a kid's parent is viewed as a pillar of the community, as preachers and cops often are, the kids are expected to mirror their parents' good behavior. This leads to problems in school, where these kids are looked upon as "goody two-shoes" or even... yep, narcs.

Of course these kids want to be accepted by their peers, and they frequently go to extremes in the other direction, just to prove that they're "one of the guys". Sometimes that includes accepting a dare to try drugs. With some of those drugs, it's a start down a one-way road.

Too many of my own officer's kids have run afoul of the law because of this, and it causes heartbreak on a greater scale than most experience.

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Sounds like it was right up your dysfunctional families alley. Too bad you never found it in time to help you and your son.
Was that really necessary? Anyone dealing with this situation is dealing with grief on a very personal level, and Al-Anon, while great for the average Joe, poses unique problems for LEOs. They are often viewed at these meetings with suspicion and sometimes outright hostility. Couple that with a lack of support from most LE agencies and you have a family that's between the proverbial rock and a hard place, but they're hardly "dysfunctional". Perhaps you need to choose your terms a little more carefully.
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Old February 20, 2007, 02:17 PM   #57
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"Obviously. I own my body. If I obtain something to put in it of mutual conscent, without infringing on the rights of others, I have the right to consume it."
So it doesn't matter to you if the methheads, in the course of their trade, kill others in pursuit of not getting caught or turf wars? As long as you can get yours eh?

I'm against the WOD in general for good reasons already discussed many times here. I'm also for protecting the 2nd and feel people should be able to own any kind of small arms they wish.

But I do not think that normal people should be able to have personal nukes, or be able to make their own nukes, too dangerous.

Meth is the same way. It's the nuke of the drug world. It's not like you can plant a few seeds and throw a light on it for your own personal use.

Last edited by Edward429451; February 20, 2007 at 04:57 PM.
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Old February 20, 2007, 02:45 PM   #58
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Capt Charlie: Just curious sir, what type of labs are present in you area. Red P or Annie? Be safe and take care.

Edward: Interesting that you compared "Nukes" to Meth. When I would give drug talks and classes, I compared Meth to "our homegrown weapon of mass destruction".
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Old February 20, 2007, 03:10 PM   #59
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Okay, I feel the same way about many products. So, why as a tax payer do I have to pay for your medical problems when you exhaust all your resources feeding your drug habit? Then you start robbing stores to get the cash to pay for the legal drugs.
The thing is, we ALREADY do that. We ALREADY pay for the medical problems of people who have let their drug habbit take control. If drugs were legal and you had to resort to crime for drugs, one of several things will happen.

1. You will be sent to jail for robbery.
2. Instead of having to commit $1000 worth of crime to buy drugs at black market prices, you will only have to commit $10 or so of crime to buy drugs at the local pharmacy.
3. Seek rehab or other help well before you hit rock bottom. Use the tax revenue from drugs to fund rehab programs and other programs to help those who want help.

People will continue to do drugs regardless of the legality or cost. The War on Drugs has gone on for nearly 40 years and drugs are still readily available. Everyone from burger flippers to politicians have used and do use drugs.

What legalizing does is seperate drug users into the ones that have no problem with their use and those who resort to crime to get their fix. People are going to do drugs regardless of the legality so you might as well not bother those who are not causing anyone trouble, minding their own business, and are otherwise productive members of society.

Just to get this out of the way, legalizing drugs is NOT like legalizing murder. I hate it when people bring that up. You can't commit murder without violating someone elses rights. You can do drugs without violating anyone elses rights. Using that argument is like saying all gun owners are murderers.

We have had millions of people quit smoking tobacco in the US over the last 10 years. How did we do that? Not by banning tobacco, but by helping those who want to quit.
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Old February 20, 2007, 05:27 PM   #60
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Edward: Interesting that you compared "Nukes" to Meth. When I would give drug talks and classes, I compared Meth to "our homegrown weapon of mass destruction".
I've met a couple people who were upstanding good people, jobs, health, family and all that and then 6 or 8 months go by and shazam, they're different people. No more house, wife left with the kids, teeth falling out, vibrating, unkempt. I knew that stuff was powerful but wow. Not to mention that more and more houses are 'sneezing' from people trying to make it. When I first heard about methlabs blowing up, I thought drug dummies, isolated incident. Now I hear about them blowing up regularly so it just stands to reason that the stuff is even more dangerous than I originally thought. The more I learn about that stuff, the more it seems like the nuke of the drug world.

Geez even the herion addicts of the 60's & 70's didn't cause as much mayhem, they'd get high and basically nod off to sleep is the way I understand it.
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Old February 20, 2007, 05:52 PM   #61
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Vos,
When your son is released you have my best wishes that he stays clean and becomes a productive member of society.

I'm an extended member of your "dysfunctional family." While still a deputy sheriff I raised a grand daughter when her mom became a meth head. It took jail time for her to get clean and, like your son, it saved her life.

My 6-year old grandson now spends the majority of his time with us when my daughter-in-law became addicted to meth and walked out on my son and grandson.

Comparing meth to pot is akin to comparing working on the space shuttle to working on a VW bug in the driveway.
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Old February 20, 2007, 06:41 PM   #62
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Denny: I feel for ya. My son (Actually stepson, but I've never called him that)will tell anyone that will listen, that if it hadnt been for the incarceration he would be dead from the drug or the people he was envolved with. He is quite aware of the failure rate of rehabilitation for meth users. Were hoping for the best. Just a tidbit of info, his bio father was who introduced him to meth. He was suffering from severe depression after returning from Ft. Benning basic training and find out about his fiance's extra curricular activities and dumped him. Regular Dear John. His bio dad told him this would give him a boost and wouldnt hurt him. What can I say. Life's a bitch to us sometimes. He's learning the hard way.
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Old February 21, 2007, 10:47 PM   #63
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Types Of Dysfunctional Families

The following are some examples of patterns that frequently occur in dysfunctional families.

* One or both parents have addictions or compulsions (e.g., drugs, alcohol, promiscuity, gambling, overworking, and/or overeating) that have strong influences on family members.
* One or both parents use the threat or application of physical violence as the primary means of control. Children may have to witness violence, may be forced to participate in punishing siblings, or may live in fear of explosive outbursts.
* One or both parents exploit the children and treat them as possessions whose primary purpose is to respond to the physical and/or emotional needs of adults (e.g., protecting a parent or cheering up one who is depressed).
* One or both parents are unable to provide, or threaten to withdraw, financial or basic physical care for their children. Similarly, one or both parents fail to provide their children with adequate emotional support.
* One or both parents exert a strong authoritarian control over the children. Often these families rigidly adhere to a particular belief (religious, political, financial, personal). Compliance with role expectations and with rules is expected without any flexibility.

I deal with a lot of the latter. Many strict religious, military and leo families have children rebel in this manner. Being in a dysfunctional family is very common. So is the denial.
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Old February 23, 2007, 02:51 AM   #64
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Derby: Aahh, you must be a counselor by profession. That explains everything.
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Old February 23, 2007, 07:46 AM   #65
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By necessity. It's kept me clean and sober for 13 years. You learn to sort through a lot of BS. Funny part is many of those that rebelled against religion end up with a very deep love of and close relationship with their God when they finally get clean.
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Old February 23, 2007, 12:44 PM   #66
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That is the AA approach. Part of the reason I don't particularly like their blanket one size fits all approach to addiction and rehab. What if you don't believe in a god or a higher power? That is not me, but there are many folks like that.

Crosshair said: "People are going to do drugs regardless of the legality so you might as well not bother those who are not causing anyone trouble, minding their own business, and are otherwise productive members of society."

I know there are a lot of folks that believe that. I am not one of them. You probably believe that you have the right to commit suicide. Drug use in many cases is a form of suicide, perhaps a slow one. Many people won't use drugs if they are illegal. If currently illegal drug use becomes legal with the stroke of the pen, then the insurance companies will have to cover these costs as part of their services for legal behavior. I know they already pay for some now.

Tax the legal drugs.... okay. Unfortunately, as soon as the government sees that pot of money, it will not get used for rehab. A portion will. Look at the gasoline tax... supposed to pay for highways. Well, once a highway is built, it gets turned over to State control and the states have to match funds or pay for maintenance. Many states can't afford to match. So, the highways degrade until they have to rip them entirely up and the feds pay for them.
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Old February 23, 2007, 05:53 PM   #67
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Derby: Aahh, you must be a counselor by profession. That explains everything.
Apologies, Derby. It appears we have significant differences in our definition of the term "dysfunctional". To most LEOs, dysfunctional refers to those that can't get dressed in the morning without LE intervention . They call the police more in one week than most do in a lifetime.

Quote:
Capt Charlie: Just curious sir, what type of labs are present in you area. Red P or Annie? Be safe and take care.
Best guess would be Annie, but most of what little meth we see (so far) is brought in. For some reason, it just hasn't become that popular here yet. Strange, because adjacent Columbiana County is drowning in it. I've only seen one lab taken down within my jurisdiction, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.
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Old February 23, 2007, 09:46 PM   #68
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Capt Charlie: Does your state have a pseudo ephedrin law? I was privleged to speak before the Texas legislature along with Trooper Green's widow and another LEO/friend from the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics on Oklahoma's pseudo ephedrin law. They were looking into passing their own bill. With our testimony they said that it helped seal the deal to pass the bill. It was one of those times that make you feel like you did some good. You know what I mean!!!
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Old February 24, 2007, 01:50 PM   #69
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How is making pseudoephedrine extremely difficult to aquire helping the meth problem AT ALL. Millions of people who use pseudoephedrine for it's legal use are negatively impacted. We are treated like criminals when we try to get it. Instead of getting a bulk pack when we are in the store, we have to go to multiple stores to get a decent supply. If you have two or more kids and it is cold season you HAVE to break the law if you want to get enough so the little ones.

Meanwhile, meth is still readily available, just now it comes from Mexico like much of the illegal drugs supply. It also costs more as well, meaning more crime for a user to get their fix.

I would certainly not be proud about helping to pass such legislation and I would certianly not admit that role in public.

Passing such laws is like cutting off your arm because you burned your finger. Does FAR more harm than good.
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Old February 24, 2007, 01:54 PM   #70
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Quote:
How is making pseudoephedrine extremely difficult to aquire helping the meth problem AT ALL. Millions of people who use pseudoephedrine for it's legal use are negatively impacted. We are treated like criminals when we try to get it. Instead of getting a bulk pack when we are in the store, we have to go to multiple stores to get a decent supply. If you have two or more kids and it is cold season you HAVE to break the law if you want to get enough so the little ones.

Meanwhile, meth is still readily available, just now it comes from Mexico like much of the illegal drugs supply. It also costs more as well, meaning more crime for a user to get their fix.

I would certainly not be proud about helping to pass such legislation and I would certianly not admit that role in public.

Passing such laws is like cutting off your arm because you burned your finger. Does FAR more harm than good.
More feelgood legislation like the AWB.
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Old February 24, 2007, 02:05 PM   #71
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I am not a LEO, but from the contacts I have, since Tennessee passed its ephedrine law, home meth lab busts are decreasing and it is considerably more difficult to obtain enough of the pills to make a cook without drawing attention to yourself.

My opinion is that law enforcement and the states in general would rather deal with meth as a traditional drug coming from somewhere else rather than contaminating private property, causing fires, and exposing children to elevated levels of various chemicals.

The addicts will continue to find a way to get their drug of choice. But, maybe the effects can be limited directly to the user and not the family or the property owner. However, if you smoke the stuff, and testing is done inside the home where use is common, it will normally test above the health based standard and the structure will technically require decontamination.

Primarily Red-P labs these days here although you are starting to see the one-pots.
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Old February 24, 2007, 02:13 PM   #72
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It has more liberty curtailing effect on law abiding citizens than any so called criminal. Now we are treated like second class citizens if we want to treat cold symptoms. Better a few bad guys skate than one honest citizen suffer.
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Old February 24, 2007, 04:00 PM   #73
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Crossfire: I too have allergy and sinus problems. I use Clariton. There are other brands of meds which do not contain pseudoephedrine. You might try these. If you must use a product with pseudo, it is a minor inconvienence when you have to purchase it, but it far outways the damage free access gives to the meth problem. I AM proud of my efforts and will always voice them. If there was enough time and space I could give you the stats and info of why the regulation on pseudo is necessary to curtain meth manufacturing. Pseudo is the main ingedient needed to make meth. Without it, no meth.

22: It is nice to see a non-leo individual who is able to see the problem about meth.

Derby: Your comments just amaze me. I am a staunch 2nd Amendment advocate. Respectfully, without the knowledge about the meth manufacturing process, its addictive properties and the damage it is causing, you should refrain from making ill informed statements. Spouting rhetoric about something one does not know anything about not only shows their ignorance but is also dangerous.
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Old February 24, 2007, 04:17 PM   #74
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Quote:
Derby: Your comments just amaze me. I am a staunch 2nd Amendment advocate. Respectfully, without the knowledge about the meth manufacturing process, its addictive properties and the damage it is causing, you should refrain from making ill informed statements. Spouting rhetoric about something one does not know anything about not only shows their ignorance but is also dangerous.
I believe in the complete Bill of Rights. Not just the 2nd Amendment. I contend that any law that restricts any of our rights is unconstitutional legislation. Are you really even a staunch supporter of the 2nd? How do you feel about a freed felon, after completing their sentence, once again owning firearms?
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Old February 24, 2007, 08:08 PM   #75
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Derby: Honestly, I'm undecided on that issue. I do feel that anyone convicted of a violent crime and/or a crime in which a firearm was used should not be allowed. I'm open to discussion and thoughts. I too believe in the complete Bill o Rights. I.E. Free Speech, Unlawfull Search and Seizure, etc..
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