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Old March 3, 2006, 04:43 PM   #1
threegun
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Why Carry????????

I was reading an article in handguns magazine. The Tacoma mall shooting. This crazy man walked in the mall and started shooting people. A mall employee pulled his own gun but wouldn't fire and just allowed the badguy to open fire seriously wounding him.


Why carry if you aren't willing to use it?
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Old March 3, 2006, 04:51 PM   #2
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There may have been other variables to be considered, such as people in the background etc, Alot of people carry but the truth is we don't really know how we are going to react when the time comes, we can talk alot of mess of how we would drill the bad guy, but hey man, in reality some people freeze.
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Old March 3, 2006, 05:49 PM   #3
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Quote:
There may have been other variables to be considered, such as people in the background etc, Alot of people carry but the truth is we don't really know how we are going to react when the time comes, we can talk alot of mess of how we would drill the bad guy, but hey man, in reality some people freeze.
All good points. I would also add that many folks don't fully consider the responsibilities, necessities, and consequences of using a gun in self-defense before they start carrying. I've met people who think just displaying a gun will protect them; some of those folks don't even have ammo, either on them or at home. They want to scare off BGs but don't want to hurt anyone. They seem surprised to find out that there are BGs who don't scare so easily.
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Old March 3, 2006, 05:51 PM   #4
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I heard the guy wasn't sure of his legal situation for shooting the criminal and it cost him.
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Old March 3, 2006, 07:01 PM   #5
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+1 P38.

You had better have your mind made up that you will shoot if you have to...looong before the situation presents itself. Someone packing just planning for the BG to turn tail may have a very cruel surprise some day. Get your butt out to the range and practice REAL CCW shooting, have confidence that you WILL hit what you aim at, get your head in the law if you have ANY doubt of what you can and can't do legally, and make up your mind NOW you WILL do what it takes to win.
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Old March 4, 2006, 01:20 AM   #6
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if the situation presented itself...I probably would have fired. From what I've read, .40 165g. shoks don't have over-penetration, but who knows....I wasn't there and therefore can't give an accurate account of how it went down.
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Old March 4, 2006, 02:58 AM   #7
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Just an update. The goodguy drew and positioned himself in a defensive posture but then tucked the gun back in his waistband. He also had the badguys back briefly. He said "I'm looking at this guy, he's a kid. I would have had to shoot him in the head". After the two made eye contact he said to the badguy "I think you need to put that gun down, young man".

So he gets involved and is armed but refuses to shoot this guy and it cost him. After the badguy opened fire on him he said "I felt like an idiot". To make things worst, after being riddled with 762x39 fire, the goodguy tried to crawl after the badguy to try and stop him from hurting others. Yes after failing to shoot this guy before he himself was shot, he tried to get shot again, I guess.
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Old March 4, 2006, 04:11 AM   #8
Glock 31
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Who really knows just exactly how they will act when presented with a situation such as this? You can say "I'd like to think I would shoot" all you want but until the adrenaline starts pumping and the matter becomes life and death you just don't know. The dude was probably a little distracted from his heart trying to thump it's way out of his rib cage.

On the other hand, i'd like to think I would shoot.
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Old March 4, 2006, 09:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
Who really knows just exactly how they will act when presented with a situation such as this?
True. However, for the folks I mentioned--who either haven't thought things through first or are hoping to scare off BGs--owning a firearm is a mistake, as it gives them a false sense of security that puts them at greater risk. They'd be better off thinking about ways to hide and/or escape and contacting the police. Their problem isn't that they don't know IF they will shoot a BG; their problem is that they have already decided NOT to shoot before they ever run into a BG.
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Old March 4, 2006, 11:10 AM   #10
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I'd think that I'd be MORE likely to shoot if I was in his shoes than if I was confronted by a mugger. In the mall, it was a clear justified shoot. This guy was mowing people down and there was plenty of witnesses to that. If you shoot a crackhead who's got you at gunpoint in a dark alley, there are no witnesses and if the crackhead survives you know he's going to play the victim.
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Old March 4, 2006, 12:43 PM   #11
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Shooting a innocent person would be my greatest concern, I can imagine some people hit the deck, but others could be running for cover and cross your line of fire. In that situation and aided by hind sight it would be worth the risk.
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Old March 4, 2006, 12:50 PM   #12
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Walt Rauch had a recent article that analyzed it will. I opine (and since I wasn't there - this opinion is worth spit), that the gentleman failed tactically and wasn't ready to answer the question of whether he would take a life.

Ayoob, IIRC, discusses this is in LFI. You need to be able to pull the trigger when the situation arises.

Many factors enter in to it and I would caution against putting total stock into an after the fact analysis by the gentlemen. Memories fail and realities are created to explain subconscious processes.

Did he think of legal risks? Did he freeze at the moment? Hard to know.

I've seen it in force on force. In a class with an excellent trainer and friend Steve Moses - I saw a martial artist unable to act against an upcoming opponent and land on his ass as he stumbled backwards. Two women were in a scenario. One later admitted that she couldn't pull the trigger and the other was felt the warrior instinct and did with little hestiation (it was a good shoot).

Farnham says you have to act. Sometimes you make the wrong choice. But freezing doesn't help - even if it is a biologically built reaction. Cognitively deciding to hide might be ok.
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Old March 4, 2006, 05:13 PM   #13
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Training versus real life...pressure, it changes everything... some people fold, some people focus. Can you summon your guts at a moments notice? http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/l...-4853200c.html
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Old March 4, 2006, 05:42 PM   #14
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"EASY to Comment, but REALLY Hard to say..!

If YOU haven't been "IN THE MIDST OF IT PERSONALLY..";
You've really got No idea what it's like, or where your mind goes..!
No one does know or will know until they have been, or end up
"Right Amongst It..!"
He did right; He did wrong, who REALLY KNOWS; apparently he thought
he did the right thing.
I hope none of you get into a bad mess like that!
(Trust me & others here undoubtedly, it sucks to be in those shoes..!)
No further comments on that...

(Quote From the master of the obvious...!)

My .02 cents worth,

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Old March 5, 2006, 12:31 AM   #15
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Ok now I'm curious, if I were in that situation and fired on the BG and put him down ? but hit a bystander in the process . where would I be Legally
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Old March 5, 2006, 02:24 AM   #16
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Quote:
Ok now I'm curious, if I were in that situation and fired on the BG and put him down ? but hit a bystander in the process . where would I be Legally
Ok, I guess I will answer this question for the third time.
Criminally the BG killed the bystander not you. In civil court anything can happen. Know your target and what is beyond it.
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Old March 5, 2006, 02:24 AM   #17
Edison Carter
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1) Looking for a trailer to live in after the civil suit.

2) You'd be desperately wishing you spent the money on more training.

EC
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Old March 5, 2006, 02:43 AM   #18
joneb
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And so if I did'nt shoot the BG and twenty more people were slaughterd that would be ok
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Old March 5, 2006, 07:47 AM   #19
threegun
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Glenn,
Quote:
Cognitively deciding to hide might be ok.
Especially going against a high powered rifle with only a pistol. My problem is that this guy didn't hide, he started to act then quit......and it almost got him killed.

Blackwater ops, Another concealed carrier drew on this same badguy but couldn't fire because of fear of hitting friendlies. This happened in the parking lot before the badguy entered the mall. Sounds like he maintained awareness of the area and did the right thing.

As for reaction, while training in martial arts I often asked why we practice the same repetitive motions to block/punch ect. Then somebody swings on you and without thought you block and punch.......question answered. Train often. Repeat drawing and firing (even dryfire), when the crap hits the fan you will draw and fire without hesitation or thought.....just reaction. It happened to me just like that except I didn't have to fire (thankfully). Having time to think before hand might change things but I haven't gotten into that situation yet. I can just prepare my mind not to freeze.
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Old March 5, 2006, 10:07 AM   #20
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Go ahead, shoot me

A friend of mine spent a night in jail due to a DWI. He's hispanic, and he ran into several very hardened hispanic gang bangers from his neighborhood while spending his wonderful evening incarcerated. During conversation, the MS-13 guys stated that when someone draws on them, they better shoot to kill or the banger will not hesitate to f**k up anyone who threatens him. My friend and I have discussed the incredible danger of producing a firearm without the commitment to use it against people who are very used to violence of all kinds. No one can completely predict how one will react in a situation, but unless you are prepared to use it, don't even carry a firearm. Whichever post said it is a false sense of security if you are not prepared to shoot is right.
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Old March 5, 2006, 04:52 PM   #21
Al Norris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threegun
Just an update. The goodguy drew and positioned himself in a defensive posture but then tucked the gun back in his waistband.
Actually, there are several accounts of what "really" happened. They all differ. The bottom line is that even the police aren't sure if the guy had even drawn his weapon when he confronted the kid. Here's three examples of what I mean:
Seattle Times November 29, 2005:
Quote:
McKown's parents said last week that witnesses reported he drew his pistol against the shooter, but police said they had not confirmed that account. In a television interview, McKown recalled saying, " 'Hey, put the weapon down — I think I said, 'Son' — I was going with the other hand to [my] jacket, and he obviously was faster on the draw than I was."
The News Tribune Feb. 22, 2006:
Quote:
Tacoma police say it’s unclear what happened. McKown had a gun but it was never fired, investigators said. They are unsure whether it was drawn. The family bases its belief on what they know of McKown and what they heard some police officers saying.

McKown, 38, was shot at least two times in the left side from a distance of 20 feet, severing his bowel and spinal cord, Schuman said. The exit wound in his lower right back is as big as a softball. He also was shot in the right elbow.

McKown, an assistant manager at Excalibur Cutlery and Gifts in the mall, was on his way to make a deposit when he ran into the gunman, who was walking along the concourse, firing a semi-automatic rifle.
Gun Week Magazine, 12-10-2005:
Quote:
McKown, 38, of Tacoma, was the last person shot by the gunman. Licensed to carry, McKown is an assistant manager at the Excalibur Cutlery and Gifts store in the mall. He confronted the gunman and briefly drew his own pistol, but told reporters that he returned the gun to his belt and instead verbally challenged the suspect. He said he told the gunman that he ought to put the rifle down. That’s when the suspect swung the gun around and shot him several times. The wounds apparently have left him partially paralyzed, though McKown has told reporters he expects to walk again. He has some feeling in one leg.
From these, and other accounts, I deduced the following:

1. McKown never fired his gun.
2. McKown attempted to verbally argue with a madman already holding a superior weapon and already engaged in shooting the place (and people) up.
3. McKown hesitated.
4. McKown was not willing to engage in force.
5. McKown didn't have the mentality needed to survive.
6. McKown's lucky to be alive.
7. McKown is a hero, in that he tried to save others, but he is just another untrained guy who lucked out.

It comes down to 1) training. McKown didn't have any. And 2) experience, something else he didn't have.

We can all get training. Whether it be professional training or solitary "by the book" training. What we can't get is the experience. That won't happen until it happens. I have seen the biggest, meanest, baddest, most trained people freeze, we confronted with the "moment of truth." All this means is that until you face the reaper, you simply won't know what you will do. So you train, to the best of your ability for that, however unlikely, event.

For those of us that have been through that looking glass and out the other side, we now have that experience. Even though each and every situation will be different, we can infer from prior experience to know pretty much how we will act or react.
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Old March 5, 2006, 05:37 PM   #22
Edison Carter
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Jibjab, I didn't say it would be ok...

Just don't expect a tickertape parade if you shoot
a little girl eating an ice cream. Her parents won't care if you just shot
Osama, you're gonna get sued!

Every bullet has a lawyer attached: The "warning shot" in the air,
the bullet that goes through a window, the bullet that goes right
through the bad guy into the bystander, even the bullet that takes
down the bad guy.

I see a lot of posters who seem to be hoping for an
opportunity to be the "hero".

I plan to survive.

My skin, and my family assets are worth a lot more to me than
20 strangers at the mall.

Let's see some laws which legally protect a "hero" in that situation, and
maybe we won't see the next hero be frozen with fear of the legal aftermath.

EC
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Old March 5, 2006, 05:46 PM   #23
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It seems to me that it breaks down into three, not two, groups. It isn't those who will shoot and those who won't. It's those who will shoot (people who've been there, done that), those who might shoot (those who have made the mental decision, if not the physical one, to shoot but haven't been tested yet), and those who definitely won't shoot (for various reasons).

Those who might shoot can (must) get training to improve their odds of winning a close encounter of the worst kind. I believe lots of people who carry have the capacity to pull the trigger if need be, but would either hesitate or not shoot because somewhere in the back of their minds they question whether they've trained themselves sufficiently. The reality of the situation, rather than the unreality of the typical shooting range, makes them question themselves. In other words, the decision to pull the trigger isn't as much a problem for them as feeling confident about their abilities. The more realistic the training, the more likely they are to perform under pressure (this approach is basically the one the military uses). You won't really know how you'll react if a bad situation occurs, but at least you have a stronger possibility of properly using a gun in self-defense.

Those who definitely won't shoot but still own a gun for self-defense (as opposed to target practice or other entertainment purposes) need to be much more honest with themselves. If you allow extraneous factors--the BG is a "kid," is mentally disturbed, etc.--to outweigh the crucial factors--a person or persons are posing an immediate threat of sexual assault, serious bodily injury, or death against you or others--you should not own a gun for self-defense.

NOTE ADDED: My ex-wife was in the third group. She wanted a shotgun for self-defense for those times when I went on deployment. She was actually afraid of the shotgun and fired it only three or four times, but for some reason she slept better at night knowing it was there. I never could figure out how she convinced herself that having a shotgun she wouldn't use somehow made her safer. Maybe I'm just too pragmatic.
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Old March 5, 2006, 06:08 PM   #24
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In summary:
"Discretion is the better part of valor."
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Old March 6, 2006, 12:02 AM   #25
joneb
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BWOp's you are a patient person, thanks.

EC, Darwinian evolutionist would be proud of your statement ; quote
I plan to survive.

My skin, and my family assets are worth a lot more to me than
20 strangers at the mall.

Something tells me, your not the guy I would want to be stuck in a fox hole with
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