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Old March 1, 2006, 12:30 PM   #51
Mikeyboy
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A 9mm can easily go in and out of a man's skull, so it bone breaking ability is not in question. It just due to angle and a few other factors (perhaps bad ammo) lead this bullet to get stuck in the guy's mouth instead coming out of the back of his head. The same thing might of happened if the insurgent used a .40 or a .45, you never can be sure. Its the way the bullet bounces, If the insurgent kept shooting the soldier in the face, regardless of the caliber, the soldier would probably have been dead. Instead the insurgent was confused, "I shot the guy in the face and he is still standing and not dead?' and in that confusion he stopped shooting and was taken prisoner. You shoot until the guy your shooting at goes down, don't rely on big calibers to be one stop shots, just keep shooting.
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Old March 1, 2006, 12:39 PM   #52
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Quote:
...another reason for me to think the S&W sigma is a POJ.
Hey now! It went BANG when the trigger was pulled with a round in the pipe, didn't it? A Glock would have done the same thing.
As a matter of fact, I was just talking with a fellow last week who's father-in-law had just shot himself in an extremity while cleaning his pistol. I said "Glock?"
He said "yep."(INSERT VEHEHEMENTLY PRO OR CON GLOCK ARGUMENT HERE)
And, while it does give us an opportunity to reflect on the wisdom of a design which requires the trigger be pulled for disassembly, the real lesson is CHECK YOUR CHAMBER!

Back to the point of this thread...if you pack a pistol, be prepared to empty a lot of rounds into an attacker. If you don't have to, that's great. But do be prepared for it.
And for those who say that shot placement is key: I'm right there with you.
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Old March 1, 2006, 12:45 PM   #53
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Sheesh! Do I feel left out or what?! I'm probably the only one on this thread who hasn't gone to Nam, Korea, broken a bone, got shot, etc... I know, its not glamourous, but I can't say I relate...Amazing stories. Kudos to all who served, and continue to do so. Oh wait, I stepped barefoot on a scorpion one time! That hurt WAAAAY more than a beesting! Seriously!

Bullets are strange things, sometimes they don't kill when they should, and sometimes they kill when they shouldn't. Marinate on that for a while...
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Old March 1, 2006, 12:55 PM   #54
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dave-as for having to pull the trigger to disassemble, thats why I love my P99, don't have to pull the trigger to do it.
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Old March 1, 2006, 02:03 PM   #55
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Good point Dave...you should always check to make sure you gun is unloaded. The S&W Sigma got other issues other than poor take down design.
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Old March 1, 2006, 02:45 PM   #56
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A 9mm can easily go in and out of a man's skull, so it bone breaking ability is not in question. It just due to angle and a few other factors
Maybe he used 9mm Ball ammunition, flat point will not ricochet like that.
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Old March 1, 2006, 04:13 PM   #57
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Quote: Anyone ever fractured a bone? Tell me that didn't hurt.

When I was young, I was riding bmx and flipped over handlebars on a ****ed up trick. I snapped my arm clean in half. From the middle of my forerm to the tip of my hand was bent at what I remember dam close to a 45degree angle perpendicularly to the half of my forearm attatched to my elbow and upper arm.

I got up and got back on my bike, then noticing that my hand was not where it sould be on the grip with my arms in the position they were in...

"Holy **** fool! Your arms bent!"
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Old March 1, 2006, 05:47 PM   #58
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Many have said to shoot until the threat is over. Many have said to carry as large a caliber as one can shoot well. Many have posted failures to stop by what are thought to be good manstoppers. Those failures validate the first to sentences. Shoot until the threat is over with the largest caliber you can shoot well.
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Old March 1, 2006, 06:40 PM   #59
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I've really enjoyed reading the opinions and war/non-war stories. I would interject just a couple of things. One, COM is actually the "motor" of the body (i.e. heart, lungs, etc.) and is the largest area on the target (you could even say the ultimate aiming point is right at the heart, though you might be considered overly optimistic if you expected to actually pierce the heart), so you get increased hit probability (a good thing) and the largest potential for hitting something important (i.e. heart, lungs, etc.). For those reasons, I would hestitate to call aiming at COM "stupid" or any other demeaning adjective.
Actually, wrong. Look at the x ring of center mass targets, its in the guts. Thats what most police agencies teach to aim for these days, the guts.

the heart is well above center mass.
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Old March 1, 2006, 06:59 PM   #60
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It's amazing.....

It's pretty amazing what the human body can take. The guy could have been on a controlled substance like PCP, in which he would haven't felt anything, or like previously mentioned, the pure adreniline rush.

Even more amazing, I recently watched a video clip from a State Patrolman's cruiser in which after a skirmish with a man the trooper pulled over, the assailant was shot 5 out of 6 rounds from the patrolman's S&W with .357 +P hollow point and lived. The assailant shot the patrolman with one round from a .22 derringer, which struck the trooper in the side of the rib cage, between the front and back of his vest, and severed his aorta.

How you live through 5 rounds of .357 +P center mass is beyond me. I just hope that guy felt the injection in his arm when they executed him.

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Old March 1, 2006, 07:26 PM   #61
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Who cares!

Quote:
Sheesh! Do I feel left out or what?! I'm probably the only one on this thread who hasn't gone to Nam, Korea, broken a bone, got shot, etc... Kudos to all who served, and continue to do so. Oh wait, I stepped barefoot on a scorpion one time! That hurt WAAAAY more than a beesting!
Bullets are strange things, sometimes they don't kill when they should, and sometimes they kill when they shouldn't. Marinate on that for a while...
Do I detect a bit of sarcasm there? Is someone having an identity crisis or feeling a little inadequate? Is it our fault you've lived a sheltered life? Then why even bother to respond to this thread at all? Sorry but crap like this really ****** me off!

Last edited by riverrat66; March 2, 2006 at 12:20 AM.
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Old March 1, 2006, 09:22 PM   #62
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Quote:
Sheesh! Do I feel left out or what?! I'm probably the only one on this thread who hasn't gone to Nam, Korea, broken a bone, got shot, etc... Marinate on that for a while...
This is a severe and misleading edit of Smoke Screen's full post.
Some of the text cut out:
Quote:
Kudos to all who served, and continue to do so.
If that was meant in a sarcastic tone, I did not detect it.
Also...
Quote:
Marinate on that for a while...
follows-and is in apparent reference to:
Quote:
Bullets are strange things, sometimes they don't kill when they should, and sometimes they kill when they shouldn't.
This seems like a reasonable observation to me. And on topic.

Let us assume the best intentions of each poster until they make clear and open attacks. Otherwise we run the risk of investing our own peeves into innocent posts.

Besides, that kind of editing will put you in jeopardy of being hired by NBC news! (I'm pretty sure that last crack was ironic, not sarcastic. Okay, maybe sardonic. )
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Old March 1, 2006, 10:12 PM   #63
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The book, "We were soldiers once" recounts finding a wounded soldier holding his head after a firefight who said, 'don't bother with me, I'm already dead'.
He had been shot in the forehead betwen the eyes.
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Old March 1, 2006, 10:23 PM   #64
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Feel better now?

Hey Dave, do ya feel better I fixed it for ya! I still think it was a sarcastic remark better not said and who said anything about off topic?
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Old March 2, 2006, 01:18 AM   #65
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Actually, wrong. Look at the x ring of center mass targets, its in the guts. Thats what most police agencies teach to aim for these days, the guts.

the heart is well above center mass.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words...

A green popsicle for the person who can find center mass on this target.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg silhouetterc.jpg (2.1 KB, 87 views)
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Old March 2, 2006, 01:46 AM   #66
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My "on topic" remark was meant only to say that he had legitimate business posting. No other implication was intended.
And thank you for changing that.
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Old March 2, 2006, 03:12 AM   #67
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@ TX RGR

According to where the X is on that target picture you posted, I would guess that it is either directly on the right atrium of the heart, or very close to it. On that picture, it is a chest shot just above the diaphragm.
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Old March 2, 2006, 09:36 AM   #68
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Just thought after a long read that I would correct a misconception repeated several times in this thread.

Adrenaline or epinephrine, is a neurotransmitter secreted in moments of crisis, the old fight or flight response. It makes the heart beat faster and work harder, increases the flow of blood to the muscles, causes increased mental awareness, and produces other changes in the body to meet an emergency.

Endorphins, are hormone-like substances produced in the brain that have pain-relieving properties. It is the endorphins that act as the super pain reliever. Morphine and heroin are drugs that were made to react with are brain's endorphine receptors, that is why they relieve pain. Unfortunately they don't work as well and have some other inherent problems.
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Old March 2, 2006, 09:45 AM   #69
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I don't know how to superimpose this view of the heart location onto the mass target shown above but it's pretty darn close. The "guts" are well below that point of impact.
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File Type: jpg Heart location.jpg (159.1 KB, 60 views)
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Old March 2, 2006, 10:43 AM   #70
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Looks pretty close to the 10 ring on the silhouette to me.
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Old March 2, 2006, 11:29 AM   #71
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Adrenaline is better than morphine

Quote:
Thought that I would correct a misconception repeated several times in this thread.
When we said "Adrenaline is better than morphine" we did not not mean as a long term pain killer. What we meant was when a person is "pumped up" on adrenaline it is sometimes better then morphine in the sense that one does not feel any pain from an injury suffered while under the influence of adrenaline. Once the adrenaline rush wears off the pain sets in where as the morphine depending on the dosage would last much longer. Does that make sense?
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Old March 2, 2006, 11:49 AM   #72
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CobrayCommando,

Quote:
No handgun round will reliably "put someone down", as in drop dead instantly, even if you hit the vitals, and especially if you don't. It happens, but eventually your going to run into someone who simply doesn't feel like laying down.
Let me pop you one in the melon (preferably between the eyes with the wimpy 9mm) and then you can shoot me with a howitzer anywhere you damn well please. A well placed shot (head shot) is a reliable stopper with a handgun. A handgun is a deadly weapon and to ignore that fact is folly. It is also fooly to expect that a shot from a handgun will reliably kill someone with one shot to the chest, even with a .45 acp.

Handguns Kill!
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Old March 2, 2006, 12:10 PM   #73
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Absafrigginlutly!

stephen426 + 1
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Old March 3, 2006, 06:51 AM   #74
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Hence, shoot until the threat is over. Great post Stephen.
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Old March 3, 2006, 09:09 AM   #75
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So Riverrat, let me get this straight. You originally noted that you told that that a sniper would be shooting at that spot below the nose to shut off a guy like a lightswitch, but in reality it was something you heard on the History Channel? Then thank you for the verification that the statement was over simplified.


Quote:
Just exactly what is your point? I only stated a fact for what I knew it to be but as usual someone has to find fault with what someone says and humble us all with their superior knowledge and wisdom all for the sake of inflating their own ego. So I guess I should stand corrected.
My point? Your fact that you stated wasn't a fact. That is the point.

Quote:
After reading all that mumbo jumbo that you obviously copy & pasted, how am I to know that it is indeed correct or just the opinion of someone who enjoys a blatant over-simplification or an amazingly poor understanding of terminal ballistics.
I am sorry you were unable to understand. I suggest you go spend time on the LIfetime network and come back after you understand anatomy.

Quote:
I could kick you in the balls and not produce the desired result also but I'm not going to write 10 paragraphs on why it should be a straight on kick and not a glancing blow yada, yada, yada.
So I take it you learned this as well from your TV sniper buddy on the History Channel?

I explained clearly why the shot is over-simplified as described or stated by a person who isn't up to speed on anatomy. The shot is a very complex shot to make because of all the parameters involved. I take it that the sniper that talks to you from the TV failed to explain to you just what causes the lights to go off.

FYI, when I copy and paste stuff, I cite the web page.
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