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Old February 27, 2006, 10:31 PM   #1
Doug.38PR
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2 shots center mass from .45 acp story

Yesterday we were talking with a man at the gun range who told us (he worked at the range) that he was a policeman who had once shot an average man 160-200 pounds (not on dope) center mass with a .45 acp jacketed hollowpoints. The rounds went right through him with flesh hanging off his back. Range was about 2 or 3 feet away.

The man simply looked down and had this attitude of "ouch! Please don't do that again!" He backed up and sat down and started talking with the officer. No vital points were hit.

How could anyone, hit with anything froma .22 to a .50 just take it so casually? Even if no vital points hit, it has to be extreme pain I would think. Plus a bullet is like getting hit in the chest with a baseball bat.

I believe he might still have fight in him or something or kept running with adreneline going but to just look down and practically go "ouch that hurt" and sit down and start having a conversation. (the cop was equally stunned by this)
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Old February 27, 2006, 10:41 PM   #2
carl418
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hmmmmmm..... I have a .45 acp, and I've assumed it would 'put somebody down'. Now, I have to wonder.
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Old February 27, 2006, 10:46 PM   #3
#18indycolts
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I've seen it happen. From a bullet to a car wreck. It's called adrenaline, your body secretes this chemical in extreme situations. I've been on 10-50's (vehicle wrecks) where someone was thrown from their car at high speeds, walking around and talking to me, telling me that they're fine and minutes later drop to the ground go into traumatic arrest. I've been on multiple gun shots, and some of them been shot in the head that are still concious and alert. Your body does crazy things to keep itself alive. Sometimes real crazy.
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Old February 27, 2006, 10:46 PM   #4
Lycanthrope
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I've seen plenty of 150lb deer run a 100 yards with half their heart blown out the other side...........

No pistol round is a sure thing.
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Old February 28, 2006, 12:03 AM   #5
Ares45
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This shouldn't come as a supprise to anyone.
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Old February 28, 2006, 12:20 AM   #6
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Doug, you have a terrible misconception of what it's like to be shot. It is not at all painful in most instances thanks to adrenalin and that built-in shut-down system that we have. There is NO feeling of being hit with a baseball bat. It's more like a beesting. I was shot once myself years ago and have seen several others. The knowledge of being shot is generally more painful than the bullet itself.
Also, the .45 is no magic bullet. It fails just as often as any other if not more. Our local PD shot a guy here 3 times CoM with 230 JHP's not long ago and he never went down and is still alive today. I have a magazine article that explains how a guy was shot 5 times CoM with 230 gr JHP's and dropped the knife on the 5 shot. He lived and later stated the shots felt like beestings.

If bullets hurt much, deer wouldn't often go back to grazing after a shot and fall over after a minute or so. If there were any "baseball bat" feeling, a 150 pound whitetail would fly off their feet when hit a 7mm or .30-06 but that is not the case.
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Old February 28, 2006, 12:25 AM   #7
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Gun range stories are almost as truthful as internet stories

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Old February 28, 2006, 12:40 AM   #8
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The guy I shot thru heart once , and threw lungs ect. twice more stumbled in his full on run and I finished it with two to head. It was war and he was wearing 6 Kg of TNT with a pull cord igniter he didn't pull! He was focused on the HQ bunker when I stepped out of the S-2 Bunker with a 1911A1 with 7 rounds of ball.He was running toward me laterally 6 feet away . I started shooting, using the sights from about 20 feet.I had 5 years of NRA/Army team bullseye shooting experience with the .45. The first shot was high in thorax and centered, the next two was thru the side of chest as he was passing 6 feet away and it stumbled him, I shot at the back of the head from 10 feet and then as he laid on ground from 4 feet . His hands were out in front to break the fall and didn't make it back to the pull cord ,thank you Jesus!
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Old February 28, 2006, 05:45 AM   #9
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actually gunshots are extremely painful, depending on where and who you are. Anyone ever fractured a bone? Tell me that didn't hurt. If a bullet hits bone, it can easily fracture it. Get hit in the lungs and it becomes difficult and painful to breathe. Most people that get hit are screaming bloody murder or in obvious distress.
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Old February 28, 2006, 06:02 AM   #10
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I have never been shot or ever had to shoot anyone and hope it stays that way. I know quite a few people who have been shot. All in war time. My father served in Korea and Viet Nam and has been shot multiple times. He says that almost every time someone else told him that he had been shot. I never felt it and just kept doing whatever he was doing.

Another person I know was shot in the chest but had on body armor. He says it leaves some nasty bruises under the armor but he never felt a thing. Someone else pointed out the marks on his armor. He saw the bruises later that night.

I would only trust a gun to stop someone if the shot was placed just right or the person know that I shot them and reacted accordingly. If they didn't know they were shot they may not respond to it until shock sets in from bleeding out or system shutdown. VERY SCARY to me.

I'm just glad that the steel poppers go down with one good hit. I have almost 100% stop on steel popper with 38spl and 100% with .45 ACP.

I'll stick with paper and steel. Much more predictable.
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Old February 28, 2006, 07:18 AM   #11
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As more proof that not every gun shot kills someone, just look at rapper 50 Cent. Shot multiple times (9 I believe) and is still up. Also 2Pac, on a previous occasion before the shooting that took his life on the corner of Flamingo and Koval in Las Vegas, he was shot multiple times in the chest and still lived. I have never been shot nor do I know anyone who has but IMO it looks like it hurts a bit more than a bee sting.

Some of you have mentioned deer taking a vital shot with a rifle and they just go back to grazing and they fall dead shortly after. I have seen deer "death kick" more when hit with a broadhead. So perhaps there is truth to the bee sting theory.
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Old February 28, 2006, 07:40 AM   #12
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This is the main reason why people say two to the chest and one to the head. As mentioned the body can do amazing things to keep going due to adrenaline. Something that should hurt like hell (and will hurt like hell sooner or late if the person survives) doesn't even register.

To have a genuine one stop shot (where the person is not physically able to continue fighting no matter how much adrenaline or drugs he has in him), you must make a central nervous system (CNS) shot. SWAT snipers are trained to take out the medulla oblongata which is roughly a 2 inch high band at eye level. A one stop shot will also occur if your center of mass shot hits the spinal cord and physically incapacitates your target. I know 2 people who are in wheel chairs because their spinal chord was damaged in a shooting. I believe that they were either shot in the back or had the bullet pass through in a lower abdomen shot. Shots higher in the chest cavity are usually much more devastating as there is a very high likelihood of hitting the lungs and possibly the heart. Not too many people survive heart shots for very long.

So what is the moral of the story boys and girls?
1. Don't expect bad guys to go flying back and expire instantly when shot, even with a .45
2. If there is a failure to stop with center of mass hits, go for the head shot.
3. Carry enough gun as long as you can control it and shoot it well.
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Old February 28, 2006, 08:04 AM   #13
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Head shots are not so great, many have survived head shots because the bullet glanced off the rounded skull .Upper chest hits are better than COM. Shoot and continue to shoot until the BG is no longer a threat !!!
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Old February 28, 2006, 08:23 AM   #14
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DesertScout1

I know that no round is a do all round.....well other than a .30-'06....but I hunt with a gun chambered in 7mm Rem Mag and have seen it toss deer around when it hits them.
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Old February 28, 2006, 09:09 AM   #15
#18indycolts
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complete spinal cord separation would have to be the quickest way to die from a bullet,especially higher up (cervical area), thats my quess anyway.
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Old February 28, 2006, 09:48 AM   #16
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Back in the early 1970's, a fairly large man (about 6'2", 200 pounds) was shot FIVE times in the chest with .45 ACP ball ammo at point blank range, during a street robbery. Not only did that man survive, he was able to tackle the bad guy and hold him down until the police arrived! I happened to be one of the officers who responded to that incident.

One of my best friends was "zippered" by 4 rounds of 7.62x39 from an AK-47, just a few days into his second tour of duty in Vietnam. No vital organs had been hit, but he lost a lot of blood and the Corpsman didn't think that he'd make it. Well, he DID! He spent a LONG time in rehabilitation, but completely healed.....and eventually became a police officer.

On the other hand, I saw what appeared to be a "flesh wound" on a gang member, caused by a .22LR round at near-point blank range. The entry hole actually sealed itself! It was on his right side, just below his rib cage. The problem, however, was that the round entered the torso, bounced around and pierced almost all of his vital organs before exiting through his.....PENIS (er, male organ)! Nope, NOT just a flesh wound! He was DOA at the emergency hospital.
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Old February 28, 2006, 10:05 AM   #17
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Quote:
Also, the .45 is no magic bullet
HERESY!!! We need to get Jeff Cooper over here to straighten you boys out!
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Old February 28, 2006, 10:37 AM   #18
Josh
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The bottom line here is that no pistol, rifle, or shotgun is a
guaranteed manstopper. Pistol rounds are not effective the vast majority of times. Answer me a question, if you were going to a gunfight what would you take ?

We carry or should carry on a daily basis why ? to repel unexpected attacks and the pistol fits the bill.

I am friends with a trauma surgeon where they see multiple gunshot wounds on a weekly basis and he tells me that 3 out of 4 will survire being shot with a pistol. The rifle on the other hand is 99% of the time they are DOA.

What kills people that have been hit in a non lethal spot with pistol rounds ? shock and mindset. The TV has done
a remarkable job suggesting that when you are hit with a pistol round you fly through the air and land some 2 feet back of where you started and are dead. I have seen guy's hit with a 7.62x39 that never flew that far.

I was at Thnder Ranch some time ago and those of you who know Clint have heard some of his famous sayings. One is that "the purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to your rifle."

Nuff said.
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Old February 28, 2006, 11:11 AM   #19
riverrat66
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Ouch!

I've seen many men shot during my two tours in Nam' and I myself was shot twice and it does indeed hurt depending on the location of the wound. The first time I ever saw a guy shot he was shot under the chin pointblank with a .45 acp, he was semi-conscience but unaware that the entire back of his head was gone, he died about 5 minutes later without making a sound. Another was shot by a sniper behind the right ear and the bullet exited out the roof of his mouth. He lived to fight another day. I've seen guys shot in the leg with what seemed like a minor leg wound but "bled out" because the bullet hit a major artery and they screamed bloody murder. I had a major head wound that almost killed me and I never felt a thing. I never loss conciseness but felt sort of removed from my body.

You shoot someone in the head with a .45acp or anything for that matter and you're gonna stop him, maybe not kill him but you're gonna stop him in his tracks. I don't care what drugs the guy is on, two in his brain and he's done!

During the Korean War the Chinese wrapped their bodies tightly in bandages so if shot the bullets would pass directly thru them with no ill effects.
Quote:
To have a genuine one stop shot (where the person is not physically able to continue fighting no matter how much adrenaline or drugs he has in him), you must make a central nervous system (CNS) shot. SWAT snipers are trained to take out the medulla oblongata which is roughly a 2 inch high band at eye level.
I was told once that a sniper will aim for a spot just below the nose and that will shut off a man like a light switch.

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Old February 28, 2006, 11:31 AM   #20
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Quote:
To have a genuine one stop shot (where the person is not physically able to continue fighting no matter how much adrenaline or drugs he has in him), you must make a central nervous system (CNS) shot. SWAT snipers are trained to take out the medulla oblongata which is roughly a 2 inch high band at eye level.
Quote:
I was told once that a sniper will aim for a spot just below the nose and that will shut off a man like a light switch.
My 2 cents- generally the area from the upper lip to eye level is good-soft tissue area.
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Old February 28, 2006, 12:13 PM   #21
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Shoot the throat! If you hit the throat veins he will be dead in seconds.
I've heard that the brain needs about 30% of the entire blood in the body, and this blood is delivered by the throath vines.
Its soft tissue no bones ar anything, with a good JHP you will put any attacker down.
And if you miss the vines you will hit the neck.
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Old February 28, 2006, 12:20 PM   #22
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I was told once that a sniper will aim for a spot just below the nose and that will shut off a man like a light switch.
Then you were told by a person who enjoys blatant over-simplification or has an amazingly poor understanding of terminal ballistics.

That magical spot below the nose could be cut out with a knife, hit with a fist, or shot from the side and not produce the desired result. Why? It isn't the spot under the nose that is relevant.

The magic spot under the nose is meant as an aim point to produce a shot that will strike the top of the spinal chord or bottom of the brain stem. For this to happen, the shot needs to be impacting level or with a slight downward angle and needs to shot from a location where the target is oriented such that there is perfect alignment between the sniper bullet's path, that magic spot, and the brain stem or spinal chord. Note the that target has to be completely vertical, right side up or down, for this to happen. If the target is leaning to any side, the impact location needed to produce the brain stem/spinal chord shot will have to change. Upon striking the magic spot under the nose, the bullet's will need to remain true and not alter course as it passes through skin, the premaxilla, maxialla, pallate, soft pallate and other connective tissue before passing through the sphenoid to impact the brain stem or below to the spenoid to pass through the atlas or axis vertebrae to hit the top of the spinal chord.

How would this be accomplished to get the correct direction of penetration from the spot under the nose to his the lower brain stem/upper spinal chord? The shot w ould need to be a close range shot with a flat trajectory or a long range shot where the shooter is on a lower plane than the target's spot belong the nose such that as the bullet arcs through its trajectory it would enter and pass straight back as would happen with a close range flat trajectory shot.

Could this happen? Sure, but it is remarkably difficult to aim at an exterior feature with hopes that it will then impact the necessary internal small structure after passing through various types of hard and soft tissue and not be deflected off course.
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Old February 28, 2006, 02:41 PM   #23
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Quote:
Then you were told by a person who enjoys blatant over-simplification or has an amazingly poor understanding of terminal ballistics.
Just exactly what is your point? I only stated a fact for what I knew it to be but as usual someone has to find fault with what someone says and humble us all with their superior knowledge and wisdom all for the sake of inflating their own ego. So I guess I should stand corrected.

After reading all that mumbo jumbo that you obviously copy & pasted, how am I to know that it is indeed correct or just the opinion of someone who enjoys a blatant over-simplification or an amazingly poor understanding of terminal ballistics.
Quote:
That magical spot below the nose could be cut out with a knife, hit with a fist, or shot from the side and not produce the desired result. Why? It isn't the spot under the nose that is relevant.
I could kick you in the balls and not produce the desired result also but I'm not going to write 10 paragraphs on why it should be a straight on kick and not a glancing blow yada, yada, yada.

BTW, my source of information was a program on The History Channel about snipers and they did not go into detail only that they mentioned the shot placement to "shut a man off like a light switch". Sorry.
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Old February 28, 2006, 02:59 PM   #24
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That is the way the bullet bounces. Again I got to bring up the Trooper Coats incident (If you don't know the full story do a forum search). The BG was hit FIVE TIMES in the COM with a .357 rounds, was still able to return fire at least for a short time and was still very coherent when other troopers arrived. Meanwhile Trooper Coats got hit with one unlucky .22 round, and he died. I would take increased capacity over caliber anyday.
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Old February 28, 2006, 03:02 PM   #25
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Anyone ever fractured a bone? Tell me that didn't hurt.
Fractured pelvis in 3 places and plateau fracture of the tibia. Didn't hurt a bit at the time. I was talking coherently with others at the scene and moved myself into a more comfortable position (needed help with my legs).
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