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Old February 22, 2006, 08:04 PM   #26
kymasabe
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Carry a nice heavy golf club and cave it's skull in next time it attacks your dog. My Spaniel has been attacked a couple of times by my neighbors Shepherd and I told the neighbor in no uncertain terms, if it happens again, I'll kill his dog on the spot and toss it's dead body thru his front window.
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Old February 23, 2006, 03:07 AM   #27
#18indycolts
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It's not the ANIMAL, IT'S THE OWNER!!!! All owner's for vicious animals should be RESPONSIBLE for anything!!!! That said, my babies are 2 pitbulls....any problems? NEVER! Every person needs to be accountable for what they own. I'm very responsible and I've taken ALL measures to be safe...what ever happens, the OWNER should be punished!
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Old February 23, 2006, 10:38 AM   #28
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If you wouldn't normally allow yourself with in arms reach of a badguy to use a stick (most of you are armed with a pistol all the time to avoid this very thing), do not be so willing to employ inferior weapons against an animal built to do more damage than a human.

A ****** off 75lb dog - not a massive dog by any means - is not an animal you want to irritate with a poor swing from a "walking stick." If your ___ caliber handgun isn't a "one shot man stopper," I doubt your best Babe Ruth swing isn't a "one smack dog dropper."
I agree with you 100% ... when it's a dog-versus-human encounter. However, the original poster's situation is a dog-versus-dog encounter, and that makes a critical difference.

Here in North Carolina, YOU or ANOTHER PERSON must be in danger of sexual assault, serious bodily injury, or death before you can use deadly force. Danger to your dog doesn't count. Plus, it's too easy to shoot your own dog. THAT is where the stick is handy.

Dogs don't multi-task very well, if at all. If the aggressor dog is attacking your dog, you have an excellent chance of using a stick effectively against the aggressor dog because it's not going to be watching your movements. BUT ... if that same aggressor dog then fixates on you, you must put up a serious offense--not defense--so your first efforts must be 100% focused on doing as much damage, even fatal damage, to the aggressor dog so as to minimize the potential threat to yourself. Dogs don't give up easily, so don't expect that.

I have been attacked, and have seen others attacked, by dogs. I found the experience to be much scarier than being attacked by humans because dogs don't hold back. A human might knock you down, figure the fight is over, and leave. A dog has no such social conscience. It will likely keep tearing at you until something scares it off.

A "****** off 75lb dog" is indeed terrifying. In fact, from my own experience, I'd say a ****** off 40lb dog can cause death or permanent injuries to an adult male human if the human panics. You do not want to be the target of an Australian cattle dog (or the equivalent Queensland Heeler), which typically weighs 40-45 pounds.

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It's not the ANIMAL, IT'S THE OWNER!!!! All owner's for vicious animals should be RESPONSIBLE for anything!!!!
True. But if my dog or I or both are being attacked by someone's dog, the immediate threat is the dog. Since attacking dogs are unpredictable, my goal will be to neutralize the dog. And since I don't want an attacking dog to turn its aggressions from my dog and onto me, my neutralizing efforts will be to kill the attacking dog, if possible. After that, I'll sue the dog's owner.

By the way, if you've ever studied escrima, you know that you can readily use a stick to kill a person. You can use those same skills against an attacking dog. The primary advantage you gain from a gun is that of distance. Either way, you can't just grab a stick or a walking cane and expect to employ it properly unless you put in some practice first. You can learn escrima skills in a relatively short time, much shorter than martial arts hand-to-hand skills. Unfortunately, escrima sticks in many places are illegal to carry. However, the advantages of a walking stick are that they are legal to carry openly and many escrima skills are directly applicable to walking sticks.
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Old February 23, 2006, 01:17 PM   #29
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Here in North Carolina, YOU or ANOTHER PERSON must be in danger of sexual assault, serious bodily injury, or death before you can use deadly force.
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Whyte, I would think the law was refering to the use of deadly force against a human in that regard. I am sure you have the right to shoot a wild animal in North Carolina if it is atacking your livestock.? I would see no difference when it comes to a pet. Its property, and if it is being attacked and is in immediate danger of being killed I am sure you would have the right to protect that property with the use of deadly force against another animal; wether it be domestic or wild.
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Old February 23, 2006, 01:32 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by WhyteP38
I agree with you 100% ... when it's a dog-versus-human encounter. However, the original poster's situation is a dog-versus-dog encounter, and that makes a critical difference.

Here in North Carolina, YOU or ANOTHER PERSON must be in danger of sexual assault, serious bodily injury, or death before you can use deadly force.
I understand what you're saying. I suppose I can only respond by saying an angry animal with knashing teeth can easily put me in fear of "serious bodily injury." That qualifies me to shoot if I feel it necessary. I will not wait for the actual bite - ever.

To rely on spray or a stick to stop the situation is, IMO, naive. I've seen many an angry dog, and I've also wrestled enough with my own dog to know I could be easily over powered (I'm 6" tall and a little over 200lbs). He only lets me win because he thinks I'm the alpha male.

Remember that you're walking your dog in the original scenario. I'm assuming we would all try to separate the dogs... therefore, in the process, it's entirely plausible that one could fear serious bodily injury... and even death depending on the dog and the situation.

I've got one of those "evil" dogs; a Rott. If he attacked someone or their dog, I would understand if he was shot. It's my own damn fault.
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Old February 23, 2006, 01:53 PM   #31
gary c coffey
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Great ideas and good advise. As a meter reader for a southern power company I come in contact daily with all kinds of dogs on their own turf . I am not permitted to carry a firearm while working so I have to depend on pepper spray. Totally useless when cold, If it blows back the dog is not effected and you are. Often have to look to see which way the nozzle is pointing. I have learned to handle myself pretty well in these situations ( 26 years and never bitten ) However, when I get home it's another story. When walking my dogs I carry a NAA mini derringer. two 22 cal. Speer shotshells ready to roll up followed by 3 stingers if necessary to end the fight. In my area, It may be more than one dog!
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Old February 23, 2006, 01:58 PM   #32
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Whyte, I would think the law was refering to the use of deadly force against a human in that regard. I am sure you have the right to shoot a wild animal in North Carolina if it is atacking your livestock.? I would see no difference when it comes to a pet. Its property, and if it is being attacked and is in immediate danger of being killed I am sure you would have the right to protect that property with the use of deadly force against another animal; wether it be domestic or wild.
You may be right. However, none of the materials I got from my CCW class covers attacks by animals, so I can't give you a legally valid answer. Quite bluntly, I haven't considered the question before this thread because my dog is a 90-pound German Shepherd that gets 30 minutes of hard exercise three days per week and is now solid muscle. I call her a cement duffel bag with legs. Very few dogs are willing to let her approach them; fewer approach her, so I've had no problems yet.
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I suppose I can only respond by saying an angry animal with knashing teeth can easily put me in fear of "serious bodily injury." That qualifies me to shoot if I feel it necessary. I will not wait for the actual bite - ever.

To rely on spray or a stick to stop the situation is, IMO, naive.
I can't fault your reasoning, and if I ever pulled a gun on an aggressive dog, I would clearly state that I (not my dog) felt threatened by it. If I felt I could get off a good shot without undue risk to others or to my dog, I'd do it. I might have to wait until an opportunity presented itself, meaning my dog would suffer some damage, but at least that damage would not come from me, nor would I accidentally damage any innocent people.

Actually, in my situation, that would be my only option, as my dog is sufficiently large enough that I don't bring a walking stick along. But the question was related to the poster's situation, not mine. When I had a smaller dog--a dachshund--and felt my environment warranted it, I brought along the walking stick. I spent about 18 months studying escrima and bo staff, so I'm adequately skilled with sticks.

It's all about compromises and which compromises you're willing to make. If I could, I'd rather carry a carbine rifle. That option doesn't exist, so I carry a pistol. Sometimes, it's a .45 Commander; othertimes, it's a Bersa T380. It all depends on the situation and what compromises I feel I need to make to best fit the situation.

NOTE ADDED: I'd be reluctant to shoot a dog that is bigger than mine and dominating over it for fear that the bullet would pass through the aggressor and into my dog. I'd also be more reluctant to use a stick on a rottweiler than on a doberman. From my limited experience with rotties and dobies, I believe that snapping the spine of a rottie would be significantly more difficult than that of a dobie. I could be wrong in that, but the more heavily built rotties seem less vulnerable to that kind of strike. With a rottie, you may not have much choice other than a gun. So I'd have to say the kind of attacking dog is another factor, which means there may not be any single best answer to the scenario.

Last edited by WhyteP38; February 23, 2006 at 03:14 PM.
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Old February 23, 2006, 06:01 PM   #33
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I had a similar situation with a neighbor's dog. I was washing my pickup in my driveway and had my Labrador Retriver on his leash in the front yard. The neighbors Golden Retriever, which wanders the neighborhood daily, came over to my dog. I watched closley as they began sniffing the others backsides and getting aquainted. Then for no apparent reason the neighbors dog bit my dog in the back of the neck and began growling. I then ran over and gave him a size 12 work boot in the ribs. He ran off as my neighbor began yelling at me from her house. She threatend to sue ME! I told her "good luck". Her dog attacked MY dog, which was tied up, on MY property. My dog had a few scratches, nothing too serious.

I'm sure the distiction between protecting people or dogs is a pretty grey area as far as written law is concerned. But your dog is also considered your property. It's a tough call. I would seek non-lethal options first.
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Old February 23, 2006, 06:17 PM   #34
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A friend of mine used to professionally show Norwegian Elkhounds, . . . and her dogs were worth some bucks.

She was virtually never without her bottle of ammonia, . . . any dog that took it upon him/herself to attack her dog got a shot of ammonia sprayed on them post haste. END OF FIGHT, . . . PERIOD!

If she had time, . . . she would quick pour it onto a cloth and throw the cloth on whichever dog was closest, . . . and it would do the same thing, . . . and was actually less bothersome to that dog than getting sprayed.

I used a balloon with ammonia water on a bothersome mutt that chased me on my bicycle, . . . and he never chased me again.

Just another option, . . .

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Old February 23, 2006, 06:32 PM   #35
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She was virtually never without her bottle of ammonia, . . . any dog that took it upon him/herself to attack her dog got a shot of ammonia sprayed on them post haste. END OF FIGHT, . . . PERIOD!
Good point. Now that you mention it, I remember reading about the use of ammonia against aggressive dogs. A dog's sense of smell is supposed to be something like 40 times more sensitive than a person's. A blast of ammonia in the nose and eyes would make an impression.

I'd like to get the perspective of some animal control officers. I wonder if the ammonia trick would work against an aggressive, larger dog, or how much range you can get on a spray bottle and still have an effective blast.
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Old February 23, 2006, 06:43 PM   #36
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Actually her ammonia was full strength, . . . and in a bottle kinda like a "Corn Huskers Lotion" bottle. The spray wasn't necessary for eyes / face / nose, but rather just anywhere she could hit the critter. She swore that it would break them up, . . . no matter what.

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Old February 23, 2006, 08:44 PM   #37
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I am sure you have the right to shoot a wild animal in North Carolina if it is atacking your livestock.? I would see no difference when it comes to a pet.
Think again. A goat farmer was recently charged/arrested in Stokes Co, NC for shooting a misplaced rabbit dog not too long ago. Seems the goat guy had lost several goats recently and came out the back door blazing. The way I see it you have more leeway in protecting your livestock than your family pet. Obiously it doesn't alway work out that way.
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Old February 23, 2006, 09:47 PM   #38
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As a rural carrier I can tell you pepper spray does work usually ,ammonia in a spray bottle always does . But a UPS lady told me about useing milk bone treats , carry a pocket full toss a few to the dog when you leave the truck , never a problem , he's your friend now . However when it comes to walking your dog the best answer is to walk them somewhere else . Its a big country and there are plenty of places to walk your dog , to continue to put your dog in a dangerious situation that you already know about is reckless . The one point those of you have missed is the other dogs owner . Think about this . I'm sitting at my desk reading TFL forms . I hear gunfire in front of my house . Its 15 feet to my front door , I'll be there armed with a shotgun in 5 seconds or less . The first thing I see is you with a handgun and a dead dog , mine . You have just proven means and intent , so I'm now fearfull . Its 30 feet to the road , I wont miss . Since the only story being told is mine I wont ever do a day in jail . My dogs are tied or inside always so this wont happen at my house but it is a very possable senario . Best to walk them elsewhere and avoid the hassle .
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Old February 23, 2006, 09:59 PM   #39
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Deja Vu all over again

I think we did this a month or so ago...

the "You shoot my dog and I'll shoot you" thing....

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Old February 23, 2006, 10:38 PM   #40
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Easy fix!

Quote:
However when it comes to walking your dog the best answer is to walk them somewhere else . Its a big country and there are plenty of places to walk your dog , to continue to put your dog in a dangerous situation that you already know about is reckless.
So I should have to walk my dog in a different neighborhood just because the jerk across the street won't leash his vicious dog? Yeah right!

His dog has chased the mailman, meter reader and just about everyone else who has walked down the street. This dog has even bit the owners wife and once knocked my buddy off his Harley as he pulled into my driveway! But in my neck of the woods it's illegal to shoot a dog for any reason. This dog takes a dump on my lawn and I throw it right in the middle of his owners driveway. I've told this guy time and time again to keep his dog away from my house and my dog but to no avail, so guess what happened? The dog died of mysterious circumstances. Too bad!
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Old February 23, 2006, 10:48 PM   #41
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Avoid the problem

So many irresponsible dog owners out there, I just fenced my yard and excercise my dog in the yard. I gave up dealing with unleashed menaces.
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Old February 23, 2006, 10:55 PM   #42
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riverrat66 , In your situation the animal contol officer is the answer . And this is not a you shoot my dog I shoot you thing , I love my dogs but they ar'nt worth a human life . But when someone hears shots fired , see someone with a gun that has demonstrated they are going to use it , and is fearfull of thier life and is armed , then you have means, intent and fear . Someone is going to get shot , right or wrong , its going to happen.
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Old February 23, 2006, 11:18 PM   #43
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Put a spiked collar on your Greyhound...

Carry a pointy stick and use the stick to poke holes in the St Bernard...

If that doesn't do it shoot St Bernard with taser darts...

Maybe it will die as a result...

Then have CW for final backup...
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Old February 23, 2006, 11:49 PM   #44
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You say you love your dogs but they aren't worth a human life but then you say, "The first thing I see is you with a handgun and a dead dog , mine .You have just proven means and intent , so I'm now fearful . Its 30 feet to the road , I wont miss. Since the only story being told is mine I wont ever do a day in jail."

Fearful of what? You're IN the house so there's no threat of physical deadly harm to you! Just call the police and let them handle it. Sure you're ******, someone just shot your dog but by going outside you're placing YOURSELF in danger. Only your story? What about witness', like maybe the neighbors? Don't you think they're gonna hear the shot that killed your dog also?

Me? If I see someone OUTSIDE with a handgun, I sure as hell ain't going out there to confront them and put myself in danger. I'm not that anxious to get into a gunfight.

Quote:
But when someone hears shots fired , see someone with a gun that has demonstrated they are going to use it , and is fearful of their life and is armed , then you have means, intent and fear . Someone is going to get shot , right or wrong , its going to happen.
Maybe you should be in law enforcement. Otherwise I hope you have a good lawyer and lots of money!
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Old February 24, 2006, 12:04 AM   #45
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Jeez , its just a senairo no need to get all worked up over it . I used the point of view of the homeowner to show a point . That a bad situation can turn very bad in a hurry . Its better to avoid a situation like this 1 then to let pride lead you into it . Remember Pride is 1 of the 7 deadly sins .
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Old February 24, 2006, 12:49 AM   #46
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Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not at all worked up. I just wouldn't want anyone to do anything irrational and get into trouble and possibly go to jail when it could be avoided. Nowdays the younger generation seems to act before thinking about the consequences of their actions. That's why I always say as a CCW permit holder if you can avoid a confrontation with anyone I think it's your responsibility to do so and if you can avoid using your firearm you should do so unless you have absolutely no choice.

"Remember Pride is 1 of the 7 deadly sins" Yes but also "it takes a bigger man to walk away from a fight......"

We're cool.
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Old February 24, 2006, 08:06 AM   #47
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I'm with spiff on this one.

Aggressive dog off leash=dead dog bleeding out where it drops.
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Old February 24, 2006, 09:21 AM   #48
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Seems to me a call to animal control is the best first response if you know there's a problem dog(owner) in your area.

Until the situation is resolved, and for unexpected situations that may come up, the ammonia bottle is worth a try next. Generally, dogs do what works and don't do what doesn't work. They excell at pattern recognition. If some dog comes after you, and you blast ammonia into his face, I'm guessing he probably won't do that anymore, or will do it once more at most. Now, no one is hurt and there's no risk of using your gun in a way that might get you into trouble.

No homeowner is going to say, "I saw you with an ammonia bottle and felt threatened, so I shot you in self-defense." Well, maybe there is a homeowner out there who will do that, but that person would be insane and would probably do something no matter what you did or didn't do. And that's a different topic entirely.

Oh, and as a general rule, I never make any threats to people with whom I have problems. Giving them my own words to use against me later is giving them an advantage I don't want them to have. I will PROMISE them that I'll call the authorities if their aberrant behavior continues, but I won't threaten to kill their dog and dump the body on their porch. They might, however, discover their dead pooch on their porch, and will then have to wonder what happened.
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Old February 24, 2006, 10:09 AM   #49
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You guys should read my post again. I called animal control when my dog was attacked. They checked it out, but scince the dog wasnt loose at the time they came (1 time) they let the case go. Alot of the time they will actually tell you " you need to catch the dog, we just pick up". Ive had that happen in another situation where a neighbors mutt was upsetting my trash.
I've never heard of the ammonia trick, sounds like a great idea. Or you can do like I said earlier; ask a friend who owns a bad-a** dog if you can borrow it. You'd be surprised how many people start minding thier dogs better when you start walking a pitt around the neighborhood a few times a week.
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Old February 24, 2006, 10:15 AM   #50
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They might, however, discover their dead pooch on their porch, and will then have to wonder what happened.
Now you've got the idea.

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Seems to me a call to animal control is the best first response if you know there's a problem dog(owner) in your area.
Around here that's a waste of time!
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