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Old February 14, 2006, 11:08 PM   #1
rnovi
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Over crimping? Strange...

Ok, riddle me this.

Smith 625JM in .45 ACP. Obviously a straightwall case. 230gr lead RN. 3.6 grains of Clays. Nothing special. Except I get 820fps out of what should be a soft load...

I've ended up with full, HARD taper crimp. I mean, I gotta be near max on the crimp. And the damn bullets STILL have a tendency to jump out of the case on recoil!

Is it possible at all that "overcrimping" the bullet is actually aiding the bullet in jumping out of the cartridge???

Help me out here guys. I've actually had one complete bullet separation in the cylinder and two nearly full separations in around 1500 reloads. I've also seen the bullets jump 1/16" on a fairly regular basis!

Really, I shouldn't be having this issue. I just can't quite get a handle on what the heck is going on.
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Old February 14, 2006, 11:30 PM   #2
HSMITH
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A couple things, back the crimp off to .471" and try again. Crimping tighter is magnifying the problem, as you go tighter and tighter the problem will get worse. If you still have the problem read on, if not continue life happily.

Plated bullets? If so get some jacketed bullets or lead bullets to try, Fix it? If not read on.

Lead bullets? If they are at least .451" in OD read on.

Your sizing die isn't doing its job, plain and simple. Your sizing die is not sizing the case down enough to provide adequate tension on the bullet.

In this case I would recommend you buy a cheap Lee 3 die carbide die set for about $20.

Set your crimp at .472" at the case mouth. Yes, I am telling you to load with basically no crimp. It will work. Trust me.

When you get into hard kicking loads you might need to switch to a roll crimping die, but the loads you are using are very light and a taper crimp should handle them and a lot more without issue.
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Old February 15, 2006, 06:49 AM   #3
caz223
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Are you using a dedicated .45 acp sizing die, or a .45 acp/.45 colt/.454 casull sizer?
The multi-purpose sizers don't size down far enough...
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Old February 15, 2006, 07:32 AM   #4
mete
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You need a good grip on the bullet and a crimp. You may have to get a smaller expander die.
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Old February 15, 2006, 08:38 AM   #5
caz223
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A firm taper crimp isn't necessary, in fact it's prolly part of your problem.
If your bullet has a crimp groove then maybe if you use a roll crimp die in the correct size, then a firm crimp would help.
Overcrimping is easy to do, esp with soft bullets.
A couple more questions....
With no moonclips, do your rounds seat flush, or fall below flush?
If they fall through and stop at the end of the chamber, then you got a 625 chambered in .45 colt.
If the bullets seat and look just like they would if you have the moonclip, then it's ok, and it's the right caliber.
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Old February 15, 2006, 11:01 AM   #6
JoeHatley
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Robert,

For alll my .45 moonclip loads, I use a standard Lee die set. The seating/crimping die is a combination taper/roll crimp and it does a good job for me.

Good Luck...

Joe
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Old February 15, 2006, 11:13 AM   #7
renaissance7697
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Too Much Crimp is probably causing your problem

When You crimp:
The die squeezes down the brass AND the lead in the bullet
( ALL [almost] bullets are lead in the core )
When you pull the completed bullet out of the crimp die
The BRASS tends to "Spring back" a little
The Crushed lead core DOES NOT!
If you crimp too hard, the bullet winds up "loose" in the case mouth.
It tends to move under recoil.

Unless you are ROLL crimping into a cannonelure (sp?) [ = the little 'groove " in the bullet ]
You should only crimp enough to remove the "flare" you introduced when preparing the case to recieve the bullet.
Returning the case to it's original "sized" diameter.

The Lee FCD ( Factory Crimp Die ) does this very nicely.
Of course you have to seat and crimp separately to use the FCD.
Seating and crimping separately removes a LOT of potential problems.
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Old February 15, 2006, 01:18 PM   #8
918v
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1. Crimp does not retain the bullet in the case as well as neck/ case wall tension itself.

2. Too much crimp will begin to buckle the case immediately behind the case mouth. This will pull the case wall away from the bullet shank. Now you have no more tension and only the crimp to hold the bulet, which is now free to move forward under recoil.

3. What OAL? If you are loading them to max length, then you may have too little powder for too much case volume, and the powder is detonating.

I have a Colt Python that detonates 2.0 grs of Bullseye in a 357 case with 148gr. HBWC bullets flush seated. The cases come out of the cylinder looking like new, complete with the original shine. A heavier charge, like 3.0grs, soots up the chamber and the cases come out nearly black all over. Also, the 2 grain load pirerces primers 75% of the time.

Is that what you're seeing?
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Old February 17, 2006, 02:25 AM   #9
rnovi
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Great Posts guys. I think Renaisance prolly came closest to the explanation that makes sense to me.

Other notes: it's a 625 in .45acp. NOT a .45 long colt. No worries there.

Bullets mike to .452. Cast lead only is all I fire in this gun.

I use a normal .45acp bullet - no crimp groove. Experiments with "crimp grooved" bullets have been less than stellar. I've gone back to normal bullets.

Detonation on the bullets? No worries there. 3.6 grains of Clays is the lowest I load. Cases come out clean, no abnormal soot.

Anyways, I'll drop crimp to minimum to see what happens.

Thanks for the advice.
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Old February 17, 2006, 12:19 PM   #10
crazylegs
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In my opinion (we all have them) you are correct in your first paragraph but totally contradict yourself in the second paragraph. Running your rounds thru the FCD will cause the problem you accurately state in the first paragraph because of the very same reason, especially if you're using cast bullets. Think about it. I know a lot of reloaders love the FCD, but that's my take on it and I only mention it because you appear to have a better understanding than most on the process. In addition, if you're using the FCD on cast bullets, you will resize them, which really negates the reason for cast bullets to be slightly oversized. I'm not harping on you, just putting out a little info you may not have thought about.
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Old February 17, 2006, 01:09 PM   #11
918v
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Quote:
Detonation on the bullets? No worries there. 3.6 grains of Clays is the lowest I load. Cases come out clean, no abnormal soot.
You are not understanding my post. Too little powder may detonate rather than burn. This creates a pressure spike rather than a pressure curve. A moderate low pressure load should leave soot on the case body. In my case, there was no soot whatsoever. The case looked like a mirror coming out of the chamber after having been fired, but the primer was pierced. A slightly heavier load sooted-up the case body and everything was fine. The report was different as well.
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