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Old February 10, 2006, 08:37 AM   #1
Crazi
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Another Scenario...

I wasn't there when this happened but this is how it was described to me. No one in the room was carrying but I place myself in the situation over and over and can not figure out a way to avoid either a shoot-out or being shot.


You are in a barbershop/deli/small restaraunt/etc with about 10 other customers and two guys walk in and announce they are robbing the place. However, after taking whatever money is in the register, they commence to circle the room robbing each individual in the establishment. You are carrying CCW and are on the other side of the establishment so you have 2 minutes tops before they get to you. Each person they rob is required to give them all jewelry, cash, their wallet/purse, cell phone, etc and is patted down to make sure the robbers got everything. One customer speaks out about his dis-satisfaction about being robbed and is pistol whipped. You are certain they will find your weapon but uncertain of the consequences. What do you do?
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Old February 10, 2006, 08:45 AM   #2
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What would Chuck Norris do?



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Old February 10, 2006, 08:57 AM   #3
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The chuck norris routine is getting quite old.

Everytime I read something in the tactics forum, that link appears. It serves absolutly no purpose, and IMO, isnt even funny anymore.
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Old February 10, 2006, 09:12 AM   #4
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Barber chairs make half way decent cover.
2 bandits divided by eight rounds of .45ACP means I have some left over ammo to carry home with me.

The pistol whipping is the clincher for me. Before that, it was 50/50 whether my life was in jeopardy. After another customer is pistol whipped, the jeopardy is certain. Would I draw and fire prior to the pistol whipping? It would depend on a lot of factors, but yes, if I felt my life was threatened, I would.

FWIW, the man who cuts my hair shot and killed a would be robber about ten years ago. He and the other barber both are likely armed underneath their smocks today. That's another good reason to go to a real Barber Shop with a couple of deer heads on the wall instead of a hair salon with limp wristed Tony mussing your hair up.
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Old February 10, 2006, 10:21 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Phelps
The chuck norris routine is getting quite old.


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Old February 10, 2006, 10:54 AM   #6
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It depends

Did they show a gun when they came in? And if they didn't why on earth did 10 people comply?

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Old February 10, 2006, 11:23 AM   #7
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I'm with Xavier on this one. After the pistol whipping, the die is cast. At that range, I'm pretty good, providing the targets are clear.
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Old February 10, 2006, 11:32 AM   #8
Dan M.
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With all due respect to the thread about people wanting to shoot someone, I say shoot, and shoot with no warning. I'd say try to avoid your shots going through the front window of the barber shop into the street beyond, but I doubt if I would have the presence of mind for the thought to remain in my head more than a millisecond if I were in that situation.
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Old February 10, 2006, 04:41 PM   #9
Crazi
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Thanks for the replies but I have to admit that I would freeze in this situation, however temporary that freeze would be.

I would fear for the other customers in that there are two threats with guns drawn. In the original scenario, one had a pistol and the other had a sawed off shotgun. The one with the pistol worked the room and the other guy stood "guard" near the front. I would probably be unfrozen by the pistol whipping as well but, I would still have the thought that while I MAY be able to shoot the "guard guy" with a head shot before he sees me but I will not be able to shoot the pistol guy with the same "certainty." I then know that shots will be fired until the threat (either him or me) is neutralized.
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Old February 10, 2006, 05:15 PM   #10
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why not just replay Samuel L Jackson's role from the last scene of Pulp Fiction. and be sure to give the bg's that big "...and you will know, I am the lord, when i lay my vengance upon thee." quote. you nailed the scene with your scenario. good ol sammy got out with his wallet and life without firing a single shot. what a concept. a person who carries choosing NOT to shoot.

seriously, you're out gunned to begin with, at least 2 to 1. if you are unable to control the situation, dont make a move and be the best witness you can be. if you feel the need to react due to immediate threat to your life, divide and conquer if you can. you're not in an action movie, so dont just expect bg #2 to stand around when you shoot bg #1 (assuming that you somehow got the drop on him). if you intend to come out firing, make sure you have good cover...and dont forget about all the innocent bystanders in your path. They may be greatful that you came to their rescue, but now you've got witnesses who say that YOU fired the FIRST shot. i think compliance is the safest route one could take.

as far as the gun goes....repositioning it discreetly to your crotch would be wise, if possible. unless these guys are real good and feel like taking their time, i would really doubt they are gonna voluntarily grope a few men's neither regions. i could be wrong.

Last edited by gamma; February 10, 2006 at 06:42 PM.
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Old February 10, 2006, 05:21 PM   #11
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Hmmm...BG's taking the time to go around and pat down each and every customer during a robbery? In a Deli/Restraunt/Barbershop, with WIDE open windows (have yet to be in any of these establishments that don't have em)? Very brave BG's, I would have to doubt the total truth to this actually happening...any how...I will play.
My answer is easy...give em everything I have. My gun is for protecting my life in a No Way Out situation. If I can run...I will run. If I can hide...I will hide. With others in the room, you might run the risk of shooting one of them...terrible to have to live with, No? You also may elevate the situation by drawing your weapon and firing...a simple robbery now becomes a shootout, with the result of dead and wounded citizens, perhaps one of the BG's decides to start shooting the other patrons. Man, a person had better really think about what he/she is going to elevate this "scenario" into. Also consider if another patron does get shot or worse killed...you may be responsible for elevating the situation unneccesarily and now YOU are responsible for the results...too high a price to pay for the possibility of being a hero on the 5 o'clock news...for a day.
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Old February 10, 2006, 05:21 PM   #12
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Seeing you have about 2 minutes (as you said) before the guy comes to you, youd have plenty time to read the situation.
the way i see it (at the moment), the guy at the door is probalbly looking out side, keeping an eye out for cops. he thusly does not pose an immediate threat to the patrons and staff.
the second guy (robbing the customers) is probably not looking at you while he is patting down someone else.
while his gaze is averted, move to cover yourself from the guy at the door, (so he cannot get a clean shot at you once you draw and fire). move very slowly so as not to grab attention. once in cover so that the guy at the door cannot get you, draw and fire at the guy who is posing an immediate threat to the patrons (the guy doing the robbing). the loud bang should confuse the guy at the door, as he should not have seen you draw and fire, and is thusly not prepared for the noise. this is your window of opportunity to take the second guy, as he now will be facing into the store and thus poses a new immediate threat.
i understand that this scenario relies absolutely on getting into cover, and having the customers spread out enough that neither of the BG's can see what you are doing.
it is however purely hypothetical. id try my best to do what i can, but if nothing can be done, nothing can be done.
i just realised this is my first respose to a scenario type post.
crit me please!
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Old February 10, 2006, 05:33 PM   #13
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I'd be worried as soon as he sees your weapon (if you didn't take the draw & fire route) that he would fire at you in a panic.

Assuming fear of life threatening injuries/death; I'd only fire if I had a clear shot at #1 and thought I'd still be able to respond to #2 in a reasonable amount of milliseconds. Shot placement on #1 is critical. He will have to go down fast; #2 shot placement is not quite as important as time between the first bang and him hitting the ground. Don't let either get to cover; if they do it is going to be a bad shoot out.

If they look peaceful enough (as in they aren't going to hurt you; having a patron pistol whipped is NOT peaceful to me), try to stash your weapon somewhere when they have their back turned. Retrieve it the moment they leave in case they get the bright idea to quickly return and take out some witnesses.
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Old February 10, 2006, 06:37 PM   #14
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my openion

in my openion and i could be wrong but to me it seems that in a case and pay attension because i wont say this often cause i hate the things but in this case it would be handy to have something such as a small fit in the palm of your hand .22 or .25 something of that nature maybe a darringer of some type because you can quietly slip it out of your pocket and as the guy walks up to you pop him in the stomach and while the other guy is trying to figure out where it came from you can pop him too. but hey what to i know.
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Old February 10, 2006, 06:53 PM   #15
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Crazi, . . .

First things first, . . . I would not be caught alive or dead in one of those type barbershops. Mine is a 2 chair arrangement, . . . glass doors to see any and every one coming in, . . . I do the appointment thing, . . . and show up about 3 or 4 minutes before my appointment. Get the haircut and get out!

If bg's come in, . . . it is right across the street from city PD and city hall.

I don't go to restaurants where I cannot sit on a back wall or in a corner.

Sometimes, . . . like the old judge used to say on the Hee Haw show, . . . when the defendant complained about getting hurt in different places: Well, just stay out of those places.

Paranoid? Scared? Nahhhhh, . . . careful, . . . vigilant, . . . observant, . . . and alive. I just am careful about where I go and where I allow myself to be put in jeapordy, . . . got to be 61+ doing that.

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Old February 10, 2006, 07:26 PM   #16
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That sheet the barber snugs up around my neck should cover me slipping my pistol out of my pocket. When I shoot through the sheet, the first guy probably won't know what happened. The second guy sure as heck won't realize what just hapened until its too late for him,too. Damn! I should write movie scripts!
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Old February 10, 2006, 08:32 PM   #17
Rob P.
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In such a case where I was in a cafe/deli or similar, and the 2 BG's showed up and did their dirty work, I'd wait and observe until an opportunity happened.

At the least I'd unholster and wait until BG #1 got to my table and waved his weapon around before I shot him 2X point blank COM. The table would be my cover for my weapon and I'd almost be touching him when I fired. If the bullet were to pass through the angle would be upward and away from any other patron.

A quick getup and then drop behind cover while BG #2 spends his 2 second reaction time trying to figure out what happened. Since everyone else will be screaming and ducking, my move to cover won't be as noticeable.

At that point I can continue to press the offensive if BG #2 doesn't run away from the scene. I can keep an eye on BG #1 in case he decides to go berserker. If BG #2 runs away, then I'm in a position to disarm #1, visibly secure all weapons, produce my CHL & ID, distance myself from the others and wait for LEO to arrive. First aid will be given only if safety will not be compromised in any way. Otherwise, BG #1 can bleed or suffocate from the ruptured diaphram.
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Old February 10, 2006, 08:49 PM   #18
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Triple tap time....no hesitation...no remorse....kill the cockroaches....
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Old February 11, 2006, 12:08 PM   #19
Crazi
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Thanks for all the replies everyone. It happened when I was on my way to said barbershop. I called ahead to secure a plcae in line as its first come first serve. I had been going to this barbershop for at least 15 years at that point.

When I called, the phone picked up and nothing happened. I hung up and called back. The line was busy. I finally got there and that is the story I was told...
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Old February 11, 2006, 01:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
Otherwise, BG #1 can bleed or suffocate from the ruptured diaphram.
During the 30 seconds or more it takes for this to happen what do we expect the BG to do? Peacfully hand over his firearm and read the rosary?

Hes likely to be a bit miffed, yeah?
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Old February 11, 2006, 04:11 PM   #21
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Ahem, hence forth, No More WWCND or quite frankly frankly even using his name.
Totally not trying to be argumentative. Im still pretty new, could someone explain? Chuck norris? (not to hijack the thread!!)
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Old February 11, 2006, 04:32 PM   #22
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I would start cutting your own hair first of all.

If I was in a similar situation and had to engage, this is my best possible scenario: I would wait until the BG with the handgun got real close to me (searching the dude next to me), then put several well placed close range shots into him. As he was falling/leaning/whatever, I would use him as cover while quickly engaging the BG with the shotgun.

Last edited by k9lwt; February 12, 2006 at 09:23 AM.
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Old February 11, 2006, 05:04 PM   #23
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Totally not trying to be argumentative. Im still pretty new, could someone explain? Chuck norris? (not to hijack the thread!!)
One Member posted a link to a "What would Chuck Norris do?" site that was funny.... the first time. 2nd time was half funny; 3rd time not so funny, and by the 5th or 6th (don't know, lost count ).... well, you get the picture .
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Old February 11, 2006, 05:58 PM   #24
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Give me a break!

Another what would you do thread. Seems we have a large # of people just itching to be in a gun battle. Well my hats off to you and my suggestion is join one of our branches of the armed forces. Free training, free ammo, free firearms, and if your lucky enough you may wind up in the middle east with plenty of targets available to you. Only bad point is the enemy shoots back. Get a life.
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Old February 11, 2006, 06:32 PM   #25
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One Member posted a link to a "What would Chuck Norris do?" site that was funny.... the first time. 2nd time was half funny; 3rd time not so funny, and by the 5th or 6th (don't know, lost count ).... well, you get the picture .
Ah. Roger that. First time Id seen it. Thanks Capt.
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