The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 9, 2006, 02:31 PM   #1
Chris Phelps
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Location: South China, Maine
Posts: 814
A Not-so hypothetical question.

I am sure everyone here has figured out that I have an overactive imagination and run through different scenerios pretty much all day long. Well here is another one... one that hits a bit closer to home for me.


I just took on a bank route (I am an independent courier, among other things). I don't know what I carry, but that really isn't the issue anyway.

My route is after-hours. I am given a key to the banks. I drop off an empty bag and pick up a full bag at each bank... between 6 and 8 banks a night. Last night I rode with the guy who has been doing one of these bank routes (not the one I usually do... but the one I am switching to). I noticed last night that if someone wanted to get into the bank, all they would have to do is wait for me to unlock the door, then push through behind me. I would become a potential hostage in a bank robbery which would more than likely go unnoticed for quite some time.

Now... I don't currently CCW for a number of reasons. 1) my day job is sorting mail in the Federal building. 2) Nothing really ever happens around here, so the need just is not there. In light of the number of scenerios I was running through in my head last night, I am seriously considering CCW while I am doing the bank route. I haven't checked yet, but I don't believe there are laws against CCW in banks in my state, so that definitly is not an issue.


We have had a couple of bank heists lately, but so far all of them are during the day, and they are really dumb criminals... (one of them tried to flee the scene in a 84 rusted out truck with a plow on the front and not running right.)

Given the facts... do you think I am just being paranoid, or is there potential for a situation to arise which would justify a CCW?
__________________
Bushmaster Superlight AR-15 5.56mm / Custom 24" Heavy BBL Varmint AR-15 5.56mm / Ruger M77 .257 Roberts / Ruger MKI 22LR Pistol / EAA Witness 9mm Pistol / Daisy 2202 22LR / Remington Viper 522 22LR / Stevens 200 .223 / Savage 10FP 24" .308 / Mauser 98 Sporter 30-06
Chris Phelps is offline  
Old February 9, 2006, 02:55 PM   #2
Dan M.
Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 93
Justified.
Dan M. is offline  
Old February 9, 2006, 03:12 PM   #3
Derius_T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2004
Location: South West OHIO (boondocks)
Posts: 1,337
If it is legal to carry in that situation, I would. You make kind of an easy mark in that instance. Although you would not be jutified in, or required to defend the money, if your live became threatened, it would be nice to have an out. Check both state and company laws, and go from there....
Derius_T is offline  
Old February 9, 2006, 04:25 PM   #4
invention_45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2006
Location: Broward County
Posts: 972
Let's say I'm a crook. I'm scoping out an area or areas to see what I can get into, and I see you somehow open banks that are locked. You go in with an empty bag; come out with it full.

No matter what is actually in the bag, unless I have special inside information otherwise, I'm going to think it's MONEY.

Remember I'm a criminal. I only care about that MONEY, not what I have to destroy to get it. You are just some inconveniently placed meat that's in my way.

I'd carry if I were you and could.
invention_45 is offline  
Old February 9, 2006, 04:35 PM   #5
SBrocker8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2, 2005
Posts: 111
This courier job sounds pretty sweet. I would say that if you can, carry. As was already said, you have no justification in defending the money, but we've all heard stories of where criminals do away with the witness out of sheer convenience. Granted, carrying will not make you 100% safe, but it gives you options.
SBrocker8 is offline  
Old February 9, 2006, 04:58 PM   #6
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,655
I suppose some kid might think you are carrying money, but the pros know that that kind of transfer involves only non-negotiable paper. Money is transferred by armored car with armed guards. They also know that a closed bank has no cash lying around unless the head teller forgot his wallet.

A gun might make you feel better, but I wouldn't sweat it too much. How often has the old guy on the route been held up? My guess would be never.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is online now  
Old February 9, 2006, 09:53 PM   #7
Chris Phelps
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Location: South China, Maine
Posts: 814
Quote:
Check both state and company laws, and go from there....

I will definitly have to check state laws, but the company has nothing against it. A number of people who deliver for this company carry weapons.


Quote:
A gun might make you feel better, but I wouldn't sweat it too much. How often has the old guy on the route been held up? My guess would be never.
We had a route driver last year that, while on a Kodak film delivery route, was kidnapped at gun point, taken about 20 miles out of town, then dumped near a river pretty beaten up, and his car was stolen. This is a very real fear.



Quote:
I suppose some kid might think you are carrying money, but the pros know that that kind of transfer involves only non-negotiable paper.
What I am carrying is not an issue. The fact of the matter is, I have the key to the bank. When I do my pickup... for about 10 seconds, that door is unlocked and the bank is empty with the exception of me. The only thing missing is the welcome mat and the open vault. Sure, I carry void checks and the actual paperwork... no money at all... but the fact that I am INSIDE the bank for 10 seconds is a scary thought when all the BG would have to do is be there at the right time and push me through the door once I have turned the key. I am quite cautious, but lets face it... if they want in, they are comming in!
__________________
Bushmaster Superlight AR-15 5.56mm / Custom 24" Heavy BBL Varmint AR-15 5.56mm / Ruger M77 .257 Roberts / Ruger MKI 22LR Pistol / EAA Witness 9mm Pistol / Daisy 2202 22LR / Remington Viper 522 22LR / Stevens 200 .223 / Savage 10FP 24" .308 / Mauser 98 Sporter 30-06
Chris Phelps is offline  
Old February 9, 2006, 10:11 PM   #8
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,564
Chris, . . .

I used to work for a bank, . . . Jim Keenan gave you the real deal. It's paper that is only valuable to banks and the like, . . . and is virtually all replaceable.

If you do decide to carry, . . . be sure you get a rig that is indeed "concealed", . . . otherwise, . . . your weapon may be the point of the whole robbery.

I know bg's usually are borderline dumb if not stupid, . . . but many of them can spot a mark faster than you can spot a Mickey Dee's when you are hungry.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old February 9, 2006, 11:13 PM   #9
Doug.38PR
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2005
Posts: 3,298
Quote:
I am sure everyone here has figured out that I have an overactive imagination and run through different scenerios pretty much all day long
Don't worry you've got good company Some of my senarios are completely off the wall. An overactive imagination is a healthy thing and I'm willing to entertain it no matter how far fetched just for fun


I don't think you're being paranoid, just thoughtful (like I said, an overactive imagination can be a healthy thing) While what you say is not likely to happen, it's not impossible. I don't think the average policeman ever has to use his gun except at the range. Getting a CHL is a good idea in any case. You never know when you might need it wherever you are or wherever you go even thought in all likelyhood you will never need it.

With what you describe having bank robberies in the area going on, it increases your chances of having to use it and it gives a legitimate argument for getting a chl (even though it is more likely nothing will happen)

We got my mother a handgun to keep when there were a lot of kick in robberies in Houston on the West side a couple of years ago and our cars had been broken into around the same time.

Go ahead and get the CHL. It won't hurt you and it may very well help you.
Doug.38PR is offline  
Old February 10, 2006, 07:26 AM   #10
invention_45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2006
Location: Broward County
Posts: 972
I'm a little worried about the remarks that a pro knows it's nothing of value (even a non-banking guy like me knows the bank won't casually handle valuables by giving them to a presumably unarmed and unarmored courier).

But some criminals, though not all, are indeed stupid. And some don't work because they are NUTS and can't hold a job. They don't think like you and me. And yes, most who would assume you have something of value would be kids, whether smart or stupid, with little experience to know better.

A kid can kill you just like an adult can. The impulsiveness that a kid's more likely to have could be argued to be even more dangerous in that situation.

It's not what's in the bag or in the bank. It's what the crook THINKS is in them that creates the risk.

Carry if you can.
invention_45 is offline  
Old February 10, 2006, 08:53 AM   #11
Chris Phelps
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Location: South China, Maine
Posts: 814
Quote:
Chris, . . .

I used to work for a bank, . . . Jim Keenan gave you the real deal. It's paper that is only valuable to banks and the like, . . . and is virtually all replaceable.

Quote:
(even a non-banking guy like me knows the bank won't casually handle valuables by giving them to a presumably unarmed and unarmored courier).


I will say this ONE MORE TIME for those who didn't read it the first time.


forget the damn bag I am carrying. Its not a target. Its not valuable. NOONE is worried about it.

What worries me is the fact that I am standing there with the fking bank door OPEN. The bag does NOT even enter into the equation!!!
__________________
Bushmaster Superlight AR-15 5.56mm / Custom 24" Heavy BBL Varmint AR-15 5.56mm / Ruger M77 .257 Roberts / Ruger MKI 22LR Pistol / EAA Witness 9mm Pistol / Daisy 2202 22LR / Remington Viper 522 22LR / Stevens 200 .223 / Savage 10FP 24" .308 / Mauser 98 Sporter 30-06
Chris Phelps is offline  
Old February 10, 2006, 10:48 AM   #12
TooTall
Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2006
Posts: 62
You said that it's a "route". To me, that means that you have a "routine" way of driving to bank #1, #2, #3, etc. Also, you probably go to bank #1 first, and to bank #2 after that. Do you HAVE to do that?

Your "route" might also have you at bank #1 at, say, 10:00 p.m. every night. Can't you vary your time schedule?

It also sounds like you pull up in front of bank #1, get out of your car, unlock the door, enter, drop off the empty bag, pick up filled bag, then exit the bank and lock the door behind you. Do you HAVE to immediately go to the bank door? Do you HAVE to park in front of the bank?

When you get out of your car, the empty bank bag LOOKS like a "bank bag" of some sort. Can't you place that bag inside of a common grocery store paper bag? Perhaps a back-pack?

Hey, if I had your job, I would definitely vary my route to the banks, and shift around bank #1 to being bank #7 from time-to-time. If my route started at, say, 10:00 p.m. every night, I'd delay it every once in awhile, to start at 11:00 p.m., or at an earlier hour.

I wouldn't park in front of the banks all the time. For that matter, I'd probably park and just sit for awhile, to observe what is going on in the parking lot and near the bank. If something looked wrong, it would be easy to pull out of the parking lot and go to, say, bank #4....then return to that bank later on.

How about parking in the parking lot of a nearby convenience store, and buying a cup of coffee before walking over to the bank? If something looks wrong when you make the approach, turn around and return to your car.

VARY your "route" times, the "route" you use to get to the banks, and VARY which bank you make your first stop. HIDE the bank bag by placing it inside of something else. VARY your parking spot, even if it might make you walk a bit further. Sit in your car for awhile before going into the banks, and observe what is going on nearby. Your car might end up being a "get-away" vehicle!

You might be able to "justify" your NEED to have a CCW permit, but by exercising your situational awareness and using common sense, you could probably work that job for many, many years without any problem.
TooTall is offline  
Old February 10, 2006, 12:31 PM   #13
Chris Phelps
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Location: South China, Maine
Posts: 814
Quote:
You said that it's a "route". To me, that means that you have a "routine" way of driving to bank #1, #2, #3, etc. Also, you probably go to bank #1 first, and to bank #2 after that. Do you HAVE to do that?
Yes, the route has to stay the same. Often times, I will be picking up a box of papers that I have to take to the bank up the road.



Quote:
Your "route" might also have you at bank #1 at, say, 10:00 p.m. every night. Can't you vary your time schedule?
Yes, I have to stay on schedule. No way of avoiding that.



Quote:
When you get out of your car, the empty bank bag LOOKS like a "bank bag" of some sort. Can't you place that bag inside of a common grocery store paper bag? Perhaps a back-pack?
That is a good idea, but I'm not sure how well it will work... these bags are fairly big.



Quote:
Hey, if I had your job, I would definitely vary my route to the banks, and shift around bank #1 to being bank #7 from time-to-time. If my route started at, say, 10:00 p.m. every night, I'd delay it every once in awhile, to start at 11:00 p.m., or at an earlier hour.
If I left earlier, I would be sitting at the first bank for an hour waiting for the bag to appear. If I delayed, I would be fired.


Quote:
I wouldn't park in front of the banks all the time. For that matter, I'd probably park and just sit for awhile, to observe what is going on in the parking lot and near the bank.
I usually circle the bank before picking up, but the bag is always left in the same place, and the key only fits the front door. If I didnt park right in front of the bank, I would have to walk acrossed the parking lot.


Quote:
How about parking in the parking lot of a nearby convenience store, and buying a cup of coffee before walking over to the bank? If something looks wrong when you make the approach, turn around and return to your car.
only two of these banks have buildings within sight of them. Welcome to maine.

Quote:
VARY your "route" times, the "route" you use to get to the banks, and VARY which bank you make your first stop.
Again.. can you say "fired" ?


Quote:
You might be able to "justify" your NEED to have a CCW permit, but by exercising your situational awareness and using common sense, you could probably work that job for many, many years without any problem.

Situational awareness will bring me one step closer to absolutely safe... but the end goal will NEVER be reached, as you know.
__________________
Bushmaster Superlight AR-15 5.56mm / Custom 24" Heavy BBL Varmint AR-15 5.56mm / Ruger M77 .257 Roberts / Ruger MKI 22LR Pistol / EAA Witness 9mm Pistol / Daisy 2202 22LR / Remington Viper 522 22LR / Stevens 200 .223 / Savage 10FP 24" .308 / Mauser 98 Sporter 30-06
Chris Phelps is offline  
Old February 10, 2006, 03:52 PM   #14
Runsalone
Member
 
Join Date: March 27, 2005
Posts: 54
Quote:
In either case, I would wait for them to get within arms reach of me, grab the wrist of the hand holding the knife, pull it in the direction they were running, then quickly snap it back, effectivly taking their feet out from under them and landing them on their back, I would then quickly twist in the downward direction of their arm, while pulling up to roll their body over... then I would put my knee in their back, lock their elbow in a position in which it was impossible for them to move, and proceed to yell for someone to call the police.






Just my .02, and more than likely a bad place to mention this, BUT... I think CCW's have allowed people to slack off in their hand to hand combat skills. Too many people are eager to shoot someone in these situations.

Runsalone is offline  
Old February 10, 2006, 07:53 PM   #15
Chris Phelps
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Location: South China, Maine
Posts: 814
lol point taken.
__________________
Bushmaster Superlight AR-15 5.56mm / Custom 24" Heavy BBL Varmint AR-15 5.56mm / Ruger M77 .257 Roberts / Ruger MKI 22LR Pistol / EAA Witness 9mm Pistol / Daisy 2202 22LR / Remington Viper 522 22LR / Stevens 200 .223 / Savage 10FP 24" .308 / Mauser 98 Sporter 30-06
Chris Phelps is offline  
Old February 10, 2006, 08:25 PM   #16
CraigJS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2005
Posts: 372
I hope the BG's knife fighting skills aren't up to your hand to hand combat skills. If so, YOUR going to get cut! Maybe a little, maybe a whole lot... H to H with a knife fighter is a LAST resort. If you can, you need to start your defence WAY before you can smell his breath...
CraigJS is offline  
Old February 10, 2006, 10:38 PM   #17
LICCW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2005
Posts: 266
Ccw

I don't care what's in the bags. Carry, man, carry. Better to be armed and not need it than unarmed and need it.
LICCW is offline  
Old February 14, 2006, 04:30 PM   #18
DBOUNCE1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2006
Location: OMAHA
Posts: 189
I vote, you should carry
DBOUNCE1 is offline  
Old February 14, 2006, 04:35 PM   #19
CyberSEAL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Posts: 161
If it were me I'd choose to carry and I'd wear a vest.
CyberSEAL is offline  
Old February 14, 2006, 04:58 PM   #20
nscale
Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 67
It doesnt take an overactive imagination to realize the danger of your job. Sounds like a real concern to me.

Right again about bg's being dumb, high, stoned and stupid. From thier eyes you are an easy target with the key to Fort Knox. Lets play this scenerio out a little further. Lets suppose you get a smart bad guy, who decides to follow you around for a night and make a visit to your house to pick up the keys. Then What?

Get a gun, carry it and if you want to be a nice guy, you can give one verbal warning before you shoot.
__________________
Whether you believe you can do a thing, or not;
You are right.
Henry Ford
nscale is offline  
Old February 16, 2006, 11:55 PM   #21
firestorm9mm
Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2006
Location: Plains PA
Posts: 88
nscale +1
__________________
Everytime I shoot the X moves
firestorm9mm is offline  
Old February 17, 2006, 08:49 AM   #22
Chris Phelps
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Location: South China, Maine
Posts: 814
Quote:
Lets play this scenerio out a little further. Lets suppose you get a smart bad guy, who decides to follow you around for a night and make a visit to your house to pick up the keys. Then What?

Then they could watch me dropping the key and my paperwork off at the office before going home. I'm not dumb enough to take the keys home with me. That is the one thing I can avoid!





The people I work with don't make life any easier. (I am 1 of 4 drivers doing this same bank route... just different areas.)

Just last night I show up at my first stop where I pick up all of the empty bags that I switch out at the banks... Walk up to the door. Low and behold, a bank key hanging from the door. I check the tag... that route driver was supposed to be out of the bank 20 minutes ago... and he was! So, I call the office and ask them what they would like me to do with his key, since he has to return for it in order to do his run.

Imagine that... A Key that opens the front door to every branch of this particular bank... and its just hanging in the door, 20 feet away from the main road.



My overactive imagination immediatly kicked into high gear, as it always does, and here is what I came up with.


The New Twist (part 2)


What if someone gets ahold of a key that is not mine, and makes a quick stop at one of the banks on my route, only to discover he still cant get into the vault. While he is in there, I show up... Of course nothing is going to be out of place... The BG isnt entirely stupid, he locked the door behind him. No vehicles in sight, nothing out of the ordinary. So I turn the key, push open the door, reach for my bag sitting on the chair next to the door only to realize I have just suprised the BG who is standing a mere 15 feet away from me, and could be armed!
__________________
Bushmaster Superlight AR-15 5.56mm / Custom 24" Heavy BBL Varmint AR-15 5.56mm / Ruger M77 .257 Roberts / Ruger MKI 22LR Pistol / EAA Witness 9mm Pistol / Daisy 2202 22LR / Remington Viper 522 22LR / Stevens 200 .223 / Savage 10FP 24" .308 / Mauser 98 Sporter 30-06
Chris Phelps is offline  
Old February 17, 2006, 12:26 PM   #23
SBrocker8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2, 2005
Posts: 111
Hence why it wouldn't be a bad idea to carry. Remember, dude, most people carry because of what COULD happen, not what routinely DOES...
SBrocker8 is offline  
Old February 17, 2006, 12:56 PM   #24
TBT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: Pittsburgh Pa
Posts: 774
Quote:
A gun might make you feel better, but I wouldn't sweat it too much.


Not that he is in mortal danger, but he is in more danger than most of us. I carry when I go to Kmart for a pack of big red. I don't leave the house without a gun. I'd be damn sure to carry a gun if I was entering banks after hours on a schedule. If I wasn't allowed to carry, I would find a new job.

As pointed out, what is in the bag doesn't mean anything. For one, criminals are stupid. You don't need only fear the pros but the hard up crack heads that have no idea what they are doing. Maybe a pro knows his mark but a strung out junkie that needs money quick is gonna see the bag and see dollar signs. Simple as that.

And as he said gaining access to the bank is probably the main conern anyway.
TBT is offline  
Old February 17, 2006, 01:11 PM   #25
Chris Phelps
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Location: South China, Maine
Posts: 814
Pro's don't concern me nearly as much than jim-bob billy-joe down the road who needs money for beer.

A pro will know exactly what they are after and how to get it. In a situation like this, usually no one gets hurt. Jim-bob billy-joe, on the other hand, would panic and open fire the second he entered the bank.


Quote:
Remember, dude, most people carry because of what COULD happen, not what routinely DOES...

Well put. I definitly wouldn't keep my job if bad things routinely happened... especially for the crap pay I get.
__________________
Bushmaster Superlight AR-15 5.56mm / Custom 24" Heavy BBL Varmint AR-15 5.56mm / Ruger M77 .257 Roberts / Ruger MKI 22LR Pistol / EAA Witness 9mm Pistol / Daisy 2202 22LR / Remington Viper 522 22LR / Stevens 200 .223 / Savage 10FP 24" .308 / Mauser 98 Sporter 30-06
Chris Phelps is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13260 seconds with 7 queries