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Old February 9, 2006, 03:27 PM   #76
Derius_T
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Stephen426, I would like to say I would ask for ID before drawing. I would think the LEO would only be too happy to show it. If he doesn't, I move away from him to cover and say loudly that I am dialing 911. (Loudly enough for ANYONE in the immediate area to hear)

But, if I were to draw 1st, then request that he ID himself, I would certainly not expect to be instantly whirled and fired upon. In my mind, a LEO would identify himself. A BG who is scared that the jig is up would whirl and try to shoot me. Why would a real leo instantly try to murder me if I ask for ID? That just doesn't say LEO to me. It says murdering crook....
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Old February 9, 2006, 04:00 PM   #77
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A little clearing up

Resuming my point of view on this.

I walk into anyone pointing a gun at my brother and he sees me comming, alone or in a crowd I am not going for my gun, that would be asking to be shot no matter who is behind the already drawn gun, period.

I ask what's up, if he claims to be a LEO I ask for ID and offer assistance calling 911 while he cuffs my brother. Depending on how he reacts to this then one reacts accordingly. I am just another passerby offering to call 911 after all. My brother knows to keep his mouth shut in a situation like this.

I walk into the same scenario unseen by the gunman, not clearly identified LEO or BG I am going for my gun first, that is in essence why civilians carry. I have the upper hand and want to keep it in case it is a BG. If I tell the gunman that I have a gun on him and he tells me he is a LEO I want proof, I want to see a shield, a set of cuffs, if there are witnesses around I'll drop the gun after ID is produced, if it is a lonely dark alley I don't think so.

Now this is where it gets dicey, same scenario LEO is lone undercover with no ID, not even a set of cuffs, just his word. He better drop his gun and wait for backup.

Same scenario, armed LEO, Chuck Norris or BG whips around to point gun at me without a word, he is getting pumped full of lead until he drops for good or I am out of ammo.
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Old February 9, 2006, 04:02 PM   #78
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bang


joking.....jeez

But seriously my little brother (17) actually had an officer order him out of his car at gun point at target parking lot and handcuffed him. HE TOOK BATTERIES
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Old February 9, 2006, 04:27 PM   #79
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Well, I'm certainly glad to know that the god complex in many LEO's hasn't changed. As someone stated earlier, many LEO's need to just calm the hell down and realize that they are NOT God, they are NOT our masters, and we are NOT serfs who exist to please them.
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Old February 9, 2006, 04:34 PM   #80
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Well, I'm certainly glad to know that the god complex in many LEO's hasn't changed. As someone stated earlier, many LEO's need to just calm the hell down and realize that they are NOT God, they are NOT our masters, and we are NOT serfs who exist to please them.
Well, I was wondering when the first bash would be. I am pleasantly surprised that the thread ran this long without one.

Since all possibility of normal, courteous (and sometimes spirited) and civil conversation just flew out the window, I'm done with this thread. Have a good one, y'all.
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Old February 9, 2006, 04:35 PM   #81
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OK, one more post.

SBrocker8, I just looked at your profile.

Are you SURE you want to be a cop?

Just asking....
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Old February 9, 2006, 04:37 PM   #82
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Comon, he does have a point. When an LEO pulls a gun on a 17 year old kid sitting in his car in the parking lot of Target for taking a pack of batteries its kind of rediculous. About 6 months (he was 16) before this he was sitting in a Kohls parking lot in his car a LEO pulled in in front of his car (to block him in) and searched through his car and patted him down and searched his pockets because he thought my brother was doing a drug deal. Guess what he was clean, the abuse of authority can get rediculous.
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Old February 9, 2006, 05:59 PM   #83
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order him out of his car at gun point
A car is a deadly weapon. Think about it.

Quote:
and searched through his car
Your brother almost certainly gave permission. If he did not well, there are cops who should be doing something else.

SBrocker8
Like I said, the wannabes who can't make it are the first to bash.
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Old February 9, 2006, 08:02 PM   #84
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SBrocker8, I've heard what you just said a number of times. Everytime I get a collar, some dumb hump wants to start talkin like you. You...are a criminal. And are cops cocky? You're damn right we are. Maybe you would prefer to have a group of spineless do nothings policing your neighborhood? SBrocker8, my only hope is that you dont ever become a cop. I hope that you lie about your knees, and go into the Army. Maybe they will make a man out of you, and help you to not be such a whiny little girl. Maybe

And here's how the conversation in the original situation would go with 9 out of 10 cops:

#1
Me: Drop that fu#king gun, or I will shoot you in the head. I'm a cop you fu#kin retard!

Other Guy: OK, I'm dropping it.

Me: Now get on your knees with your hands above your head, and cross your ankles.

#2
Me: Drop that fu#king gun, or I will shoot you in the head. I'm a cop you fu#kin retard!

Other Guy: No, you drop yours!

Me: Central, call a supervisor and an ambulance to Wal-Mart, I've just shot an armed person, in the head.
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Old February 9, 2006, 08:42 PM   #85
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I guess I'm the 1 in 10 that would not ask the guy pointing a gun at me to put it down. Seriously, am I missing something here? Sure, in either case if the guy w/ the gun is an LEO or a concerned citizen you do not want to shoot them. But if they are not, if they are an armed perp with 2 felonies and you are between him and freedom or 25 to life do you really believe the guy is going to argue about dropping the gun? It will go more like this-

You: Drop that fu#king gun, or I will shoot you in the head. I'm a cop you fu#kin retard!

Other Guy: BANG BANG BANG

You: No fair you were supposed to argue with me or something!!! This is not like the movies at all!

St. Peter: It's better to be tried by 12 then carried by six!
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Old February 9, 2006, 08:59 PM   #86
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I've heard that 12 Vs. 6 saying a million times. Its one of the silliest sayings there is.

Shoot without knowing whats going on. Good policy.
We arent talking about being in Mog or Baghdad. We are talking about the United States of America.
Your response is that of a soldier. Mine is that of a cop. You just go and shoot someone who has someone at gunpoint who tells you he's a cop, and even remotely resembles a cop...well, you'll be testing out that 12 Vs 6 theory. And trust me, you will get the death penalty. If you believe otherwise, ya got to explain why. I guess I just dont get it.
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Old February 9, 2006, 11:15 PM   #87
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respect

I do have the upmost respect for LEOS, not only they put themselves in harms way every day but they take on the responsability of having to use deadly force, all of this to protect the rest of us. Some say that it is easier to die for what you believe than to kill for it.

I rememeber once in my days of driving a cab in LA when at night one of the front lights on my taxi was out of order, this is a signal nationwide used by cabbies via a hidden switch to tell LEOS that they are in trouble. A patrol car came by, flashed it's lights for me to stop, one of the officers came out drew his gun and aimed it inches away from my back seat passenger's head, then the other came out gun in hand to ask me if everything was ok. I explained about the busted light and they went their way. The passenger soiled his undies, I was glad they where there for me even if it was a false alarm.

But LEOS are human and humans are not perfect, this is evident by all the LEOS here that insist on that they will ask the person that has a gun pointing at their back to drop the fu#king gun or they will turn around, locate the target, aim and shoot them dead faster than the other guy can just pull a trigger. BG or concerned civilian, they are asking to get shot.

Food for tought for all of you LEOS, studies have shown that those of you that have a 95% accuracy at the range, when in a real situation where shooting is involved this accuracy drops to 15%.

And yes there are a lot of great LEOS out there but unfortunatelly some corrrupted ones, some that are just trigger happy and so on.
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Old February 9, 2006, 11:38 PM   #88
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Well, its a good thing that what cops do dosent get monday morning quarterbacked to death. An undercover with no identification who dosent ID himself and shoots someone who dosent know hes a cop would never get a second look.

Still no reason for the cop to give warning? Maybe you didnt read the original situation in this post.

And what the hell does corrupt cops have to do with anything?
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Old February 9, 2006, 11:53 PM   #89
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corruption

corruption makes for a breakup of moral fiber, a total one in the case of a corrupt LEO, add to this the round the clock paranoia of gettting caught, not the kind of person you want pointing a gun at a loved one.
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Old February 10, 2006, 12:06 AM   #90
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What if when the alleged LEO turns around he is wearing a hockey mask and carrying a chainsaw in addition to his duty weapon.....then he suddenly begins singing and dancing like he is on broadway before a spaceship beams him, your brother, and you up with a tractor beam and takes you to the planet Zandu.

you have a vivid imagination.
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Old February 10, 2006, 12:12 AM   #91
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have him reach for his I.D. with his free hand. After he shows his I.D. you better lower your weapon...and start apologizing! ha ha
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Old February 10, 2006, 12:24 AM   #92
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The thing I see in this hypothetical is that just about everyone forgets one MAJOR factor....

You (ahem) are not LEO and have no power to do anything except shoot IF you believe that your life or the life of another is in immediate danger.

Yelling at the guy with a gun pointed at your child, spouse, mother, etc is STUPID beyond belief. Shoot him in the back from behind cover and sort it out later. There's tons of stories where undercover cops have been shot by uniformed cops so how could it be so unthinkable that a CHL shoots an undercover cop who has his weapon pointed at the CHL's family member. A good lawyer will work wonders for your defense to the DA before it even gets to trial. And if it goes to trial, your defense is going to be based upon what the law REQUIRED you to do (defend life) and the fact that the LEO was undercover/off duty/rogue, failed to ID himself, and caused you to believe that either your life or the life of your immediate family member were in danger. A dead cop cannot refute your belief so you get the benefit of the doubt. Shoot him to slide lock and hit your target every time. But you better damn well be positive in your belief that the guy with the gun IS a BG and your family member had better be totally innocent of anything including parking tickets.

If the LEO (if he is truly LEO) has a gun pointed at your best friend in the approved LEO fashion, then I'd suggest you back off, dial 911 then announce yourself from cover and wait and see what's going down. There's a world of difference between family and best friend and you have no maternal/paternal instinct defense so shooting an actual undercover LEO who was arresting your best friend WILL get you a ticket to jail.

Remember, you only have the right to draw and shoot in self defense or the defense of another who is in imminent danger of death. Not arrest or detain the BG or yell before shooting, or any of the other silly notions that have been discussed here. If you believe then shoot the guy - it's why you carry.

And lastly, if the scenario is quiet without a lot of yelling, sirens, etc then it's likely the guy with the gun isn't LEO. Arrests in public parking lots tend to be noisy with a lot of commotion going on. Turning the corner at Walmart to find someone with a drawn weapon and no one even noticing is a giveaway that it's not an arrest.

And for you LEO's who are going to flame me for my opinion, if you are standing there with a gun pointed towards my family member while wearing flipflops, burmuda shorts and a Gilligan's Island T-shirt I ain't a gonna believe you're on duty LEO. And if you're not on duty, what the heck are you doing trying to forcibly arrest someone in that getup without backup. Off duty LEO shouldn't be permitted to arrest or detain unless life is in imminent danger. Other property crimes get the best witness possible.

And don't undercover cops get support so that "they" never have to be the one to make the actual arrest? Isn't that the job of their backup team?

My take, if the gun is pointed at immediate family just shoot him. If it's pointed at grown siblings/friends, call 911. And if your friend asks why you didn't shoot, explain the difference between protecting yourself/family and best friends. Best friends get to protect themselves cuz it ain't your job to do it for them.
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Old February 10, 2006, 12:27 AM   #93
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bruchi, funny you should mention paranoia.
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Old February 10, 2006, 12:33 AM   #94
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"Shoot him in the back, and sort it out later."

WOW
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When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.
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Old February 10, 2006, 12:39 AM   #95
bruchi
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imagination

I do have vivid imagination, I am an artist and yes I like guns too so it comes with the territory, unfortunatelly I am not one with such a good imagination to come up with alien abductions and very creative planet names!

I am sure that there are many mistakes on my scenario play book but I rather make them here and learn from others, some of you guys make incredibly good points, the recent one on rights and conditions in which you are allowed to pull out your gun is a very good one, we are not LEOS, we are not allowed to arrest anyone, seems the right for a civilian to exercise a civilian arrest does not allow the use of handguns.

What irks me beyong belief is the statement by LEOS which in general I have the ulmost respect for, that they will after asking for someone pointing a gun at them to drop it if they don't obey they will turn around and kill the guy.

I heard of suicide by cop but I did not knew that the reverse, LEO sucide by an armed civilian was part of LEOS training!
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Old February 10, 2006, 01:10 AM   #96
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SRTDog,

Problem with that?

Lets expand the scene some then. Say you're in your home and your daughter just came home from a date. You hear her enter and decide to go downstairs to make sure she's OK. You get to the bottom of the stairs and there's a guy with a gun pointed at your child.

Do you: A) shoot him; B) ask for ID; or, C) dial 911 & run away?

Now, lets take the EXACT same situation but evaporate the house structure. You appear from behind a blocked viewpoint and some guy is holding a gun pointed at your child.

Explain to me how that's different (please skip the castle doctrine argument - there's a guy with a gun pointed at your loved one being the point here). In either case the guy with the gun could be LEO or could be a BG and you cannot tell from appearance if he is either.

Quick, what do you do? Had to think about it? Sorry, someone died because you couldn't make up your mind. Run away? Sorry, someone died because you startled the shooter. Yell for ID? Same deal. Dial 911? Sorry, someone died because there wasn't an available cop to come to the rescue in time.

If you come around a blind corner and see your immediate family being held at gunpoint by someone not immediately recognizable as LEO you are OBLIGATED to shoot the person holding the gun if you believe that there is an imminent threat to life. Be they LEO or BG. If you won't shoot an imminent threat, you have no business carrying. The trick is to recognize when you can and when you can't shoot and only the devil knows for sure which is which.

LEO want to go home at the end of their shift. To help them do that they get training and backup so that they'll almost never be in the described situation (alone, undercover, etc) and have to draw their weapon during an arrest. This gives credence to the idea that if a lone gunman is threatening my family I'm within my rights to shoot him as fast and as often as I can until he is no longer a threat to me or anyone else. To me that means shoot until slide lock, drop the mag & reload, then dial 911 and immediately say the words, "someone just tried to kill me and my ....." After that, let the DA try to prove you weren't in fear for your or your family members life.
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Old February 10, 2006, 02:16 AM   #97
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It scares me that you guys even sit around and are so bored you come up with this stuff. I mean really! Who on earth thinks they are going to walk out of walmart, go around a corner, and see this? If the guy ID's himself as an LEO, you better walk back to cover and dial 911.

Drawing on ANYONE who already has a gun out is a bad idea. Anytime you can, retreat and call for backup, in your case, call 911.

And no, LEOs who are plain clothes NEVER work alone. And around here, its unheard of for plain clothes units to go in for a bust and not have uniformed black & whites right around the corner.
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Old February 10, 2006, 02:36 AM   #98
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It scares me that you guys even sit around and are so bored you come up with this stuff. I mean really! Who on earth thinks they are going to walk out of walmart, go around a corner, and see this?
I do. It's called situational awareness and preparedness. If I expect to come upon a scene such as this then I'll be prepared to deal with it instead of standing there with my mouth open and doing nothing.

Quote:
If the guy ID's himself as an LEO, you better walk back to cover and dial 911.
I'm not going to stop to talk to the guy or ask him anything. If the guy with the gun isn't instantly recognizable as a cop then my evaluation in a life or death situation will be to act as if he is not and there won't be any time for anyone to ID themself.

Quote:
Drawing on ANYONE who already has a gun out is a bad idea. Anytime you can, retreat and call for backup, in your case, call 911.
I see you're a believer in the fantasy that 911 will protect you in an emergency. I'm not. While I'm standing there with my CCW in it's holster and my cellphone on hold with 911, my family member may die. If what you advocate is to call 911 and wait under any/all circumstances, then why carry at all?

To draw your weapon and fire should always be the last possible option. Unfortunately, sometimes it's the only option and one you need to use immediately and without warning.
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Old February 10, 2006, 03:28 AM   #99
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I'm not going to stop to talk to the guy or ask him anything. If the guy with the gun isn't instantly recognizable as a cop then my evaluation in a life or death situation will be to act as if he is not and there won't be any time for anyone to ID themself.
+1 This is all you can do.
The cop should be the one calling 911 and getting backup before even approaching, BEFORE the situation escalates into a gunfight. Once people are pointing guns at each other its a bit late to talk it out, I am not going to take the chance the other guy might decide to pull the trigger. Both people could be LEOs, it makes no difference. No one is their right mind would drop their own weapon while someone they have not positively IDed is pointing a gun at them. Standing there and waiting to get shot or trying to demand ID ensures they are most likely going to be the one with no side of the story to tell. If this was just a man with a gun, no sane person would do anything other than call 911, but it's a family member so there is little choice. Once involved, there is only one option when someone unidentified points a gun at you. If you have made the decision not to fire, then don't CCW.
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Old February 10, 2006, 09:55 AM   #100
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I would have to think that any plain-clothesed officer who pulls his weapon will make it clear to everyone in sight that he is an LEO.

The LEO would know that there will be civilians who would think that he is a BG, so I would imagine that the LEO would be very clear in who he is and what he is doing.

Holding is ID up, shouting his ID and his intentions, saying that everyone stay calm and such.

I don't think you are going to come upon a plain-clothesed cop with his weapon drawn and not have proper ID readily available.

The LEO is not stupid. He knows that there is potential for misunderstanding. He is trained over and over again to avoid misunderstandings.
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