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Old February 8, 2006, 01:41 PM   #26
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Have you seriously considered a part time career as a fiction writer? Your fertile imagination would lend itself nicely to just such an endeavor.

Imagine the possibilities.

-PB

Actually, yes... yes I have. Except my interest lies more in the movie industry.


It seemed like a good hypothetical situation to post. I read all of these " guy walks into a restraunt with an AR" situations, and such... so I decided to post this one. In my mind, it is a very scary situation to find yourself in... it tests your judgement and reaction probably the most any of us would ever be tested, and worst of all... it is very possible that someday someone might find themselves in this exact spot.



PS - I have a lot more where this one came from... all in good time.
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Old February 8, 2006, 01:55 PM   #27
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what about?

Not perfect but this is definetivelly a very dicey situation, you don't know if he is for real and he pretty much is sure you are another BG, an armed dangerous one to boot trying to get a buddy with a long list of pending warrants on him.

Keeping your gun trained on him, explain your worry of him being for real, and that both you and your brother are standup citizens, some mistake has ensued and it is not necessary for anyone to get hurt.

Slide your CCW permit to him after telling him you are doing so, make sure to explain anything before making a move,the CCW will show him to a degree you are a law abbiding citizen, tell him to call it in and check and if he wants to go ahead, holster his gun and handcuff your brother, make sure your brother cooperates and makes this extremelly easy for the LEO, he can even drop to his knees and place his hands on top fo his head, hey he can drop his pants as well, the goal is no one gets shot, again making the LEO aware this is going to happen and assure him by making the point that you have the drop on him and you could had easily already shot him and both you and your brother flee if that was your intention.

Handcuffs can be taken off afterwards everything is cleared, hopefully this + keeping his gun in his holster or even at hand and being able to call in and see you are legaly bound to carry a gun will give him some sense of security, wait for backup that can prove he is legit then put your gun on the floor, be helpfull when they handcuff you and if you have any sense while waiting you would had already called in your lawyer.
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Old February 8, 2006, 02:03 PM   #28
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I'm thinking if this guy is a legitimate LEO, his partner is going to make you dead in a hurry. Problem solved!
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Old February 8, 2006, 02:20 PM   #29
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not to be negative here, s it is a good thought provoking scenario, but I can see just this type of debate picked up and used by anti's.

See congressman, even gun guys aren't sure how to handle this type of situation. Citizens drawning down on leo's just trying to do their jobs!? Too much confusion! Innocent leos get shot. Thats exactly why nobody but law enforcement needs guns........:barf:
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Old February 8, 2006, 02:31 PM   #30
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Thats exactly why nobody but law enforcement needs guns........


and that very same discussion ends everytime the same way...


DEA Agent Shoots himself in the foot


Police Officer Neglegent Discharge


Even after I find out the guy holding my brother at gunpoint is LEO... those scenes would be playing through in my head, and I would be doing everything in my power to rectify the situation so NO ONE is being held at gun point.
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Old February 8, 2006, 03:29 PM   #31
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Engaging LEO- Bad Idea

Many are forgetting that not only are LEO's trained to NEVER give up our gun, we are also trained to DOMINATE ANY SITUATION that we are placed into. That being said, if I have had to go so far as to intervene into a situation off duty and I have a subject at gunpoint and another person comes around the corner with a gun, I will immediately engage that person as they are a threat to me. This is nearly a lose- lose situation, but for those of you who have said you would hold the officer at gunpoint, may God be with you. And for those of you who think you will tell the officer what to do and give him orders... THINK AGAIN, and be ready for a battle. That will be perceived as a hostile act and you will more than likely be engaged if you are armed. The only person that will give me orders when I am not in uniform, is some one who is in uniform. Then I will happily comply.

If you confront the officer verbally and emptyhanded, you will more than likely be ordered to the ground, and you should comply. Besides, if the possible LEO turns out to be a bad guy, why immediately let him know that you are armed, you will have given away the element of surprise. You have already given him two problems to deal with, and effectively divided his attention, at that point in a public place as busy as WalMart, a bad guy will run like the wind. If the bad guy for whatever reason doesn't run, and you are sure it is not LEO, then do what you must do, but I have never heard of a bad guy being so blatant in a public place.

If by chance you have survived drawing on a LEO, you should probaly expect to serve some jail time. I know here in Alabama you could and in my opinion should be charged with menacing if you fail to holster your weapon IMMEDIATELY, if you haven't already been shot.

Just my thoughts and opinion, and what you should expect from me and my training. I should also note that if I were forced to act as an off duty LEO, you can rest assured there will be a lifeless body, a screaming female, or some other extreme situation driving my decision to act, no one's petty issues mean anything to me when I'm not on the clock.
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Old February 8, 2006, 03:59 PM   #32
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Many are forgetting that not only are LEO's trained to NEVER give up our gun, we are also trained to DOMINATE ANY SITUATION that we are placed into. That being said, if I have had to go so far as to intervene into a situation off duty and I have a subject at gunpoint and another person comes around the corner with a gun, I will immediately engage that person as they are a threat to me.

Man... they dont train LEO's very well, do they?

OK.. my new response to the situation.. shoot the fker in the head without saying a word. If he was a BG, I saved my brother from a potentially fatal situation. If he was LEO, I saved my brothers life as well as my own.



Seriously... what good are police if they are trained to handle situations like this in such a manor as to make it better to engage immediatly than to attempt to identify?



Quote:
If you confront the officer verbally and emptyhanded, you will more than likely be ordered to the ground, and you should comply. Besides, if the possible LEO turns out to be a bad guy, why immediately let him know that you are armed, you will have given away the element of surprise.

If someone has a drawn weapon that is trained on my brother, you are out of your friggen mind to think I am going to empty-handedly confront him. Given your formentioned statement, I think I'd be better off confronting a BG than a cop.
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Old February 8, 2006, 04:03 PM   #33
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You and your brother are in a world of $h!t basically. People don't point guns at one another and jibber jabber unless you're in Hollywood. In real life if you point a gun at me you better pull the trigger otherwise you'll end up dead. I have no doubt that once you point a gun at a LEO he/she will decide you are the primary threat and prosecute with a vengeance. I know I would.
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Old February 8, 2006, 04:16 PM   #34
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A tip they taught us (and I learned the hard way) at the academy. Always challenge from a position of cover. I'd draw and conceal the weapon as best as possible and talk to the person holding my brother from behind something.

I'll play this from the other end. I'm the cop, holding a guy at gunpoint for something. In my mind, I have justified the need to have my gun out, which means that I think life (mine) or serious injury (others) is imminent.

The good thing about this thread is that it forces me to think ahead of time. In this slow-time where wits are clear, I think that had this guy wanted to shoot me, I'd be shot. So, in talking to me instead of shooting me, "you" are not necessarily an immediate threat to life. But I'd also think that if I had a guy at gunpoint, I'd be telling everyone that came out that I was a cop. Oh, and here in TN, you are required to carry your Dept issued ID (not just a badge) to ID yourself as a Police officer.
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Old February 8, 2006, 04:20 PM   #35
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Old February 8, 2006, 04:21 PM   #36
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Man... they dont train LEO's very well, do they?

OK.. my new response to the situation.. shoot the fker in the head without saying a word. If he was a BG, I saved my brother from a potentially fatal situation. If he was LEO, I saved my brothers life as well as my own.



Seriously... what good are police if they are trained to handle situations like this in such a manor as to make it better to engage immediatly than to attempt to identify?
Chris,
I hate to say it, but I agree with you,
shooterjohn (obviously a LEO himself... ) is taking a Rambo attitude that says "I am a bada-- and the whole world is my enemy. Don't mess with me!" rather than a cool calm and collected PUBLIC SERVANT. He's proud to be a professional killer rather than a professional servant. May God help us all if that is the kind of training and line of thinking that police are trained with today.

Police are NOT ninjas and they are not invincible. They are men, just like you and me and can be killed. They may have more training than one gun owner but have less training than the next but no amount of training will guarantee that he will not be killed.

shooter john, I seriously hope you are the exception rather than the rule to policemen.
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Old February 8, 2006, 04:35 PM   #37
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More "Rambo" than this?

"If he I'ds himself as a LEO, I'd just say "we'll see about that." and demand that he drop his gun and put his hands over his head. Get him under control first squatting down on knees with hand over head. Then ask him to slowly reach for his ID and throw it to me and then get on the phone with the 911 operator and try to confirm over the phone if he was legitimate (IDs can be faked) and also call for uniformed police to come help. Once confirmed over the phone, I'd lower my gun, holster it and let him know that we are okay and hand him his ID and ask him what the trouble is with my brother. "
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Old February 8, 2006, 04:39 PM   #38
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Doug, don't turn this into one of those threads.

You could, if you wanted, be in the place of the off-duty cop. You could be detaining someone at gunpoint for whatever reason (the same one the off-duty cop could hold them for). You are holding a BG which you witnessed committing a violent felony in walmart and waiting for the police to show up. The BGs brother comes out (and doesn't know what's going on) and draws on you. What do you think at that time? You know you have good reason to hold this guy. he's committed a violent crime. Do you think "oh, this other guy must just be a concerned family member?" Or do you possibly thing "holy *$&#^, this guys drawn on me and he's trying to rescue his "partner" and kill me?"

So, since we're talking hypotheticals here so that we can think about them ahead of time, don't knock a guy for telling you what might be going through the hypothetical off-duty police officer's mind. Take that information and apply it to your actions from the concerned brother angle. Now you know that perhaps the officer could think you're a fellow gang-banger (or whatever) instead of a concerned relative. How does that change your tactics in approaching the situation?

We can all gripe that people shouldn't think or act how they do. That won't change what they think or do. Instead, how about also thinking, "well, if they could think/act this way, what would I do about it if they did?" I thought that was the purpose of questions like this. Not badgering the people that try and give honest assessment of all the possible implications from a different side.
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Old February 8, 2006, 04:44 PM   #39
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Group9: Hear, hear!

I didn't read anything in shooterjohn's post that's Ramboesque. Seems like that's exactly how LEOs are trained and should react in such a situation. A police badge holds more clout than a CCW permit. The LEO I'm guessing is more familiar with legalities of such situations, while CCWers must debate on the internet...

So while the supposed LEO may be in the right to detain your brother, and you might be in the right to defend your brother, y'all might both be dead...
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Old February 8, 2006, 04:55 PM   #40
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Really, rewinding to the beginning, wouldn't the policeman ALREADY HAVE HIS BADGE OUT to prevent just such a problem? I mean, forget me, some other person in the lot might see it and think it a robbery and come to the rescue or some security guard might blow him away or even some uniformed cop around. If he is an undercover cop waving a gun around pointing at unarmed people and he doesn't have his badge out and ready to show people then he is asking for trouble.
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Old February 8, 2006, 05:21 PM   #41
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I have a better one...


What if you unknowingly drew your weapon on Chuck Norris?


.
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Old February 8, 2006, 05:26 PM   #42
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Lol!!!
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Old February 8, 2006, 05:28 PM   #43
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shooter john?

QUOTE/Many are forgetting that not only are LEO's trained to NEVER give up our gun, we are also trained to DOMINATE ANY SITUATION that we are placed into./QUOTE

Let's then turn the tables around, you are a LEO so you walk into an unknown to you undercover LEO that's purposedly looks very threatening and does not have ID on him, he is holding at gunpoint a loved one that you know to be the last person in the world to get in a position to be arrested but quite wealthy and a prime robbery victim, you ARE TRAINED TO BE IN CONTROL so according to this the first thing you do is pull out both your gun and shield and draw on the person threatening your loved one, identify yourself and tell him to drop the weapon or else.

The guy responds that he is on the job and has no ID on him and BEING A LEO HE IS TRAINED TO ALSO NEVER GIVE UP HIS GUN AND TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL SO HE WOULD NOT GIVE UP HIS WEAPON.

What do you do?
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Old February 8, 2006, 05:47 PM   #44
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Good point Bruchi. They are each other's "worst nightmare"
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Old February 8, 2006, 06:08 PM   #45
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If I (a cop) come across an armed individual holding my family member, as described above, the off-duty guy and I are going to talk. My first action is drawing and saying "POLICE!!! Drop the Gun!" If he says that he's a cop too, I'm going to ask for ID of some kind. If he says he has none, I'm going to talk to him (which means he's not shooting my family member.) If this is indeed a cop, and they are holding my family member, then they are waiting for a uniformed guy to come make an arrest or waiting for backup. They are not holding my family member at gun point with the express purpose of shooting them.

I will have my ID on me and show it. I optimistically think we can talk about this. The scene I'm envisioning has my family member prone, face down and the officer most likely standing with weapon pointed at them or straddling them in order to cuff/control. I believe that I can tell if the person holding the gun is doing something in an LEO manner or not. Let me try and illustrate what I mean in that regard:

Someone holding my family member in this manner: my family member (f-m) is either on their stomach, knees or feet and facing away from the person with gun. The off duty cop (ODC) is standing in a more or less traditional firing stance and giving orders in a commanding voice, or in some way "controlling" the situation. If the someone holding my family member is talking in a less than "professional" way (i.e. slang, cursing, etc.) that's one strike against them being LE. Also, if they are touching my family member with the gun (ie-against their head/body), that's also not a sound tactic taught to LEOs.

Now, I also believe that once I show my ID/badge, the situation can de-escalate. We can all wait for the on-duty cops to show up and sort it out.

(realize that I am actually writing from both sides here, as I can only base how the Off-duty cop would react based on how I would most likely react if another cop challenged me while I was holding his/her family member at gunpoint)
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Old February 8, 2006, 06:20 PM   #46
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Thank you Jociii,
To me, that is a thoughtful way of handling the situation that can be learned from and seeks to defuse the situation.


However, what if he is not handling the brother in a "LEO" way (On the ground etc.). Suppose the brother standing there having a gun pointed at him. Doesn't too much talking lead to distraction? Again, my way of thinking is if you have the edge (you have the drop on him) and you have no way of knowing at this point if he is legitimate shouldn't you use that advantage to de facto take control of the situation and temporarily disarm him? (speaking and acting towards him in a calm and collected manner)

I think you bring up a good point on the manner of the so-said cop. I think everything should be taken into account (no one thing per se): The way he speaks, the way he is dressed, the way he carries himself, etc. And likewise if you are presented in the same manner (like not dressed like a gang banger) it will help put him at ease if he is a real policeman
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Old February 8, 2006, 06:27 PM   #47
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I hate to admit it but I believe that the typical LEO would react the way shooter_john described. If I were an LEO, I would engage the threat immediately. Think about this guys. Bad guys will sometimes have accomplices. Do you think a real LEO would give up their weapon to the bad guy's accomplice? Cases of mistaken identity have occured before. Your brother can resemble the sketchy description of a convenience store clerk that just got robbed.

I think that common sense must prevail here. You guys need to engage your eyes and your brains before engaging your targets. I'm not saying to wait for the bad guy to blow your brother's brains out but LEO's and bad guys tend to act differently. If your brother is spread up against a car and getting frisked with his hands behind his head, chances are you are dealing with LEO (Would your brother act that way if he wasn't dealing with a LEO). Even undercover LEOs tend to drive vehicles that are obviously LEO (discreet lights, license plates, extra antennas, Crown Victorias or something similar....

If the unknown subject has a gun pressed to you brother's back and appears to be robbing your brother, then you react appropriately (don't forget you are in a public place where a bad guy will not want to be conspicuous). I would watch for a few seconds and try to assess the situation as well as possible BEFORE acting.

If I was led to believe that I was dealing with a bad guy, I would consider drawing. One thing you guys failed to consider was a possible "hostage" tyoe stand off. Say you are dealing with a bad guy and he grabs your brother in a choke hold and puts the gun to his head. He then demands that you drop you weapon and your wallet or else he will blow your brother's head off. Do you risk the shot, risk your brother getting shot, or do you comply? If the bad guy is not out right shooting your brother, maybe it is better to wait until your brother is out of danger and then confront the bad guy. If you confront the bad guy at that time and then end up shooting him, you are guilty of using deadly force to protect property.

There are a couple of scenarios that are much more obvious. If someone is shoving my wife inside her car and getting in after her, I will sneak up on him and put a bullet in his brain before he even knows what hit him. I don't give a damn if it is LEO. No LEO in his right mind would be putting someone in their own car and then getting in after them, especially at gun point. Sounds like a car jacking leading to a rape to me.
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Old February 8, 2006, 06:31 PM   #48
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Doug .38PR,

Don't let the officer's style of clothes fool you. You could be dealing with either an anti gang unit or undercover narcotics. I'm sure they don't go around dressed in shirts and ties. If they are making an arrest though, they should be doing so in the "proper" way. jcoiii got the jump on me with his post so sorry if much if his "theme" is repeated in my post.
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Old February 8, 2006, 06:36 PM   #49
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stephen,
as I said, you can't take any one feature alone but take it all together into account. It isn't a deciding factor, but it does direct you.

Quote:
If I was led to believe that I was dealing with a bad guy, I would consider drawing. One thing you guys failed to consider was a possible "hostage" tyoe stand off. Say you are dealing with a bad guy and he grabs your brother in a choke hold and puts the gun to his head. He then demands that you drop you weapon and your wallet or else he will blow your brother's head off. Do you risk the shot, risk your brother getting shot, or do you comply? If the bad guy is not out right shooting your brother, maybe it is better to wait until your brother is out of danger and then confront the bad guy. If you confront the bad guy at that time and then end up shooting him, you are guilty of using deadly force to protect property.
This gives a pretty good argument for NOT hesitating and talking too much. Pull your gun quick and cover him. Get him under control and if he doesn't comply, shoot. stop the situation before it becomes a hostage situation
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Old February 8, 2006, 06:40 PM   #50
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Just to say again, I have seen FOF folks held at gunpoint with a person talking. They were shot repeatedly before they could get a shot off.

Maybe someone thinks they are hot stuff but I suggest you try this before you opine that you won't be shot.

Also, even if you shoot - you seem to have the opinion that your shot is instantly disabling - don't count on it.

Also, I might remind you that some folks are taught that when holding a person at gun point and threatened - shoot the person in front of you immediately and whirl to engage the other as they will be standing there with their mouth opinion - unless well trained.

Someone has also mentioned backup - crooks and cops might have it. Again, in FOF, when the gunfight starts - you say: Why, O dear I have commandoed this dude and now someone else is shooting me.

Ok- in a convenience store robbery - I'm in line in back of a BG shooter. He shoots the clerk. I draw and take him down and tell him not to move. I'm drawn on by his backup. I shoot him (as he is talking). General gunfight continues.

I think there is a touch too much of assuming the plan goes your way when you take out the gun. It might but in this one, I return to the verbal challenge approach. That will distract the ambiguous gun dude. If he is a real bad guy, brother can do the Chuck Norris on him or flee. It will be disambiguated. Of course, if unknown to you, your brother is a criminal, then the cop will be mad at you. Don't count on your brother to come back for you.
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