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Old February 4, 2006, 11:56 AM   #1
kymasabe
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911 = Dial-a-Prayer ??

I keep hearing here and there that law enforcement is not here to protect us or prevent crime, only to round up the bad guys after the crime has been commited. As far as self defense goes, dialing 911 might be a waste of time.

But, I come from a home town where the cop cars still say" To protect and serve" so now I'm confused. What exactly is the role of police in our society?
Does that role vary on a town, county, and state level? Or does it vary from town-to-town?
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Old February 4, 2006, 12:29 PM   #2
Radiki
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It isn't that the police are not there to protect and serve. They do their best to prevent trouble and stop crime before it happens. But in a self defense scenario, even if the closest officer is only a couple miles away it will still take a couple minutes for the 911 call to go through and him to arrive. Alot of people can die or get hurt in that couple minutes so your role should be to make sure that until they arrive, the only person that gets hurt or dead is the BG. I know that if there was a way to predict crime and stop it before it happens there would be far less crime, but there is not. So the best we can do is be prepared and react accordingly.
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Old February 4, 2006, 12:42 PM   #3
GHT
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This refers to Castle Rock v. Gonzales.
The Supreme Court decided that a woman could not sue the Police Dept because they did not respond to her repeated 911 calls concerning her estranged husband kidnapping their children. The issue was actually about enforcement of an existing restraining order which if enforced would, in her opinion, have stopped the father murdering the children. They made no specific effort to enforce.

The money quote (actually from O'Bannon v Town Court Nursing Center) :

“[t]he simple distinction between government action that directly affects a citizen’s legal rights … and action that is directed against a third party and affects the citizen only … incidentally, provides a sufficient answer to” cases finding government-provided services to be entitlements.

That means that if their actions affect you then you are covered (they will arrest you at their discretion).
If they affect some dirtball that breaks in and clubs you to death, then you are not covered (they may or may not show up as they see fit

So no. The police have no mandate to "protect you" it is marketing hype for their car graphics.

But they generally do their best.

G

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/su...04-278.ZS.html
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Old February 4, 2006, 03:02 PM   #4
model 25
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In general people are good, though society is falling fast in it's morality. That goodness is why a city with 50,000 people has no more than 10 cops on duty at any shift. That ratio means that you better learn to defend yourself because if you watch events on TV that cops are involved in, there is always alot of cops at one event. This leaves everyone else unprotected.

The reality in the world is that if you do meet one of the bad people he has you as a victim from the moment he saw you. The police have no way to protect the individual as there are not enough cops in the world to do that. So the time it takes for the police to get there after you report the problem means you have been victimized allready or you are dead and the cops just come in to look see.

You are the only person that really is going to protect you and a gun is the only true defence you have. All the martial arts and all the alarm systems and everything you can think of will not protect you as well as your skill with a gun. This is plain as day to all and you have to ask why people want to deny your ability to protect yourself. When you get it figuered out it will open your eyes about liberals

25
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Old February 4, 2006, 04:27 PM   #5
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I thought that "Protect and Serve" meant to protect and serve the law not an individual.So technically they're not required to do anything till a law is broken.
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Old February 4, 2006, 04:32 PM   #6
model 25
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Funny they want to keep religion out of government then introduce 911 government sponsered dial a prayer The police only come after a crime is commited, if your dead it's too late

25
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Old February 4, 2006, 06:04 PM   #7
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A gun in hand is better than a cop on the phone.

I'd rather have 1911 then 911.
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Old February 4, 2006, 06:51 PM   #8
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All services such as police, fire and EMS are responsible for the community not for individuals.
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Old February 4, 2006, 07:30 PM   #9
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The case law goes back much farther than the Castle Rock decision. In "Dial 911 and die!" the authors cite just about every case on the topic, even before there was a "911" to dial. Unless the police have made prior agreements to provide protection, they are not liable if they fail to arrive in time. Many departments have removed the "To Protect" signage from their cars over the years. I haven't seen it in at least ten years here in Michigan. Who is responsible for your safety? You are.
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Old February 4, 2006, 08:36 PM   #10
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Good point J.D.B.
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Old February 4, 2006, 09:16 PM   #11
kymasabe
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From todays newpaper, 911...no response !!!

Top Story
911 call yielded no help
Wife: Shooting wouldn't have occurred

By Grant Boxleitner
gboxleitner@news-press.com
Originally posted on February 04, 2006


MENDEZ-MORALES
Suspect in shooting

About 8:40 p.m. Wednesday, Ruthie Mendez dialed 911 to ask to have a Lee County sheriff's deputy dispatched.

She said she told the operator her husband, Pedro Mendez-Morales, 31, had just been at her residence with a gun. She mentioned he was under a court order not to contact her.

A deputy never came.

A half-hour later, Mendez called back to say her husband had shot her boyfriend, Miguel Angel Cobos-Gonzalez, 17, a few hundred feet from her home.
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Old February 4, 2006, 11:31 PM   #12
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Police are intended to maintain the basis of a civilized society in that they provide part of the concequences for breaking the law. I do not mean that they necessarily carry out the sentence but make sure that the criminal is present for the sentence to be carried out. Policemen are also responsible for stopping a crime should they come upon one in progress and for attempting to come across such crimes if they become aware of their presence in another location. The fallacy is that today's society is becoming more and more reliant on the protection of each other. The "Interdependancy of Society" as Sen. Hillary Clinton once put it. I am of the opinion that people are independantly responsible for their own actions as well as their own well being. I will attempt to call the police should there be an intruder in my home or in some other such undesireable circumstance. I will, however, reach first for my .357 Magnum because I understand that ultimately I, not the police, am responsible for my survival. The police's responsibility is to apprehend my attacker (or if their response is too slow call an ambulance or coroner), not to protect me.
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Old February 5, 2006, 12:00 AM   #13
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Please keep in mind that in general, the folks in the 911 industry, dispatchers, police officers, and other public safety personel take great pride in their work and truly care and want to help.

It is frustrating to me to hear folks that complain and bitch and moan about public safety services. I don't think many people understand the level of expertise, training, and time involved in making sure a 911 call goes through.

I have made a career out of designing, impementing, and supporting 911 systems as a 911 System Administrator. It is not only my job, it's my passion. I take PERSONAL PRIDE in providing a level of 911 availability that even financial systems on Wall Street can't touch.

While many of you are at the range, reloading, or at church, I am on-call and at the keyboard working my typical 80 hour work week doing everything in my power to keep the 911 systems working properly. While you sleep, I'm woken up via pager, tracing failed 911 calls, troubleshooting SS7 links, working with Local Exchange Carriers (LEC's), upgading systems, and making sure that YOUR family has the level of 911 service you deserve. When you dial 911 from your cell phone and the PSAP (911 center) receives your call with Lat/Long based on the GPS birds that traced your phone, it's NOT a miracle. It's because folks that do the kind of work I do made it happen. It's NOT magic, it's hard, complicated work. If you dial 911 from your cellphone, there is a 90% certainty that the computers and applications that I am directly responsible for handled the call. Please remember that there are talented, passionate folks behind the work that you take for granted and complain about.

Yes, maybe your 1911 is faster than the cop that is 2 miles away, but he's working and has to (GASP) **DRIVE*** to your house. He's human, it may take a few minutes. I know there may be certain instances of delayed response or a level of service you may not appreciate, but please remember those of us in the public safety community often work hard, work extra hours and take GREAT PRIDE in helping our fellow Americans.

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Old February 5, 2006, 12:58 AM   #14
Optical Serenity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radicki
It isn't that the police are not there to protect and serve. They do their best to prevent trouble and stop crime before it happens. But in a self defense scenario, even if the closest officer is only a couple miles away it will still take a couple minutes for the 911 call to go through and him to arrive. Alot of people can die or get hurt in that couple minutes so your role should be to make sure that until they arrive, the only person that gets hurt or dead is the BG. I know that if there was a way to predict crime and stop it before it happens there would be far less crime, but there is not. So the best we can do is be prepared and react accordingly.
+1 Perfect response sir! And as an LEO, I can assure you that I truely want to protect everyone, but it just can't happen. Heck, I can't be in two places at the same time...But we do what we can. Thats exactly why in law enforcement we truely believe everyone should take a proactive approach to their safety and own a gun.
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Old February 5, 2006, 01:25 AM   #15
Glock 31
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Here in my town in New Mexico, our cop cars still say, "Proud to protect, Honored to serve". Every time I have had to dial 911, (usually while working the night shift at a hotel) the police have responded within 2 to 3 minutes when I really, really needed them. Maybe we are lucky in this regard. Sometimes it gets real busy for them here, but for the most part, they are there when you need them. Remember if they don't show up in the nick of time, usually it's not cause they didn't want to. They have to deal with communication delays and traffic like the rest of us when we want to get somewhere quick.

My opinion is that they do what they can, when they can, to prevent crime as much as possible. No cop is a mind reader or a psychic and people will always get hurt because the criminal wasn't kind enough to let them know that he would be committing a crime ahead of time.
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Old February 5, 2006, 01:51 AM   #16
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I would like to think that that is wrong and cops are there to protect you. I also am not a big fan of relying on other people for my protection, exspecialy the government. That's why I have guns. We all saw what happened after Katrina, granted that's the worse case senario. I've only had to call 911 to report car wrecks, And they eventually showed up for that.
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Old February 5, 2006, 02:26 AM   #17
Optical Serenity
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Glock31, very well put. 2-3 minutes response time is pretty good, and thats about what we have here. Yes, a lot can happen in 2-3 minutes, but you have to remember that there are many calls coming in, and few cops to handle those calls.
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Old February 5, 2006, 04:14 AM   #18
Glock 31
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Under manned and under payed seems to be the norm in most law enforcement agencies these days.
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Old February 5, 2006, 04:23 AM   #19
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something not mentioned are the people that DON'T need to use 911. People waste that privilege countless times every day! Someone says something you don't like, you call the cops, you've been sick for 2 weeks and just now calling an ambulance, you stub your toe and you want a ride to the hospital. And the people that have TRUE emergencies are getting delayed responses because idiots abusing the system!
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Old February 5, 2006, 03:48 PM   #20
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It's a common ocurrence for anyone on our EMS squad to inquire as to the ETA for the State Police on certain calls from our dispatcher (I live in a fairly rural area that doesn't have local police protection - those townships that don't are covered by the State Police) . The reply will come back - with great regularity - "15 minutes per SP Dispatch".

The next move made by our squad will be for everyone to look at their watches, and start taking bets how far over the infamous "15 minutes" it will take for the cavalry to arrive. Our county is fairly large, and to trapise from one end to the other takes about 85 minutes hot footing it.

The first thing that will be reached for is the home defense implements - after that, it's 911 as backup. I love the stance of the anti-gunners on relying on the police (local or State) for protection. They can wait for them and suffer the consequences; me, on the other hand, will use what I have in the home and have the intruder suffer the consequences.

I worked in a 911 center for awhile, and was on the phone with a resident when the intruder did breach the door and shot him. Not a pleasant experience for either party - the resident especially. Talk about feeling as useless as screendoors on a submarine - something I don't ever want to have to do again. Thankfully the intruder was a lousy shot and the resident did recover. Total time of call to the 911 center to time he was shot was about 8 minutes. State Police were still "15 minutes out".

The local, regional and State police departments do what they can with the manpower that they can muster, but they cannot be in your home like Scotty beaming Capt'n Kirk aboard the Enterprise. Deploy the 1911, then call 911.
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Old February 8, 2006, 01:49 AM   #21
Metellus
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...

the one time i really needed the police to show i got a BUSY signal for a 911 call. now i've learned to call on 1911 in conjunction with calling the number that drops the first "1"... the cops will show up AFTER not DURING.
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