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Old February 1, 2006, 01:46 AM   #26
pokerjoe420
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surrondings matter!

If you are behind him, then there are people oppisite him... In that instance you should drop to the floor before firing so your bullets are aimed UP at him,greatly decreasing potential for freindly fire! As for the body or head, just empty all 5 shots of your 38. snubby. if you hit him he will go down, atleast long enuf to reload(you should always carry speed loaders)
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Old February 1, 2006, 01:49 AM   #27
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Hmm,, I'd have to say try to aim for his shooting arms shoulder...right around the shoulder blades with a revolver. If u bust the bones that are supporting the rifle, he/she can't shoot that rifle., If I had my G17, I'd start center of back and He'd be on the ground before I got the 5th shot off... If I was close enough and felt comftorbal enough, I'd go for the head.. U hit the brain stem, game over.. Also depends on the backdrop,.. If there's a lot of people everywhere, I'd stick to the bigger target.. If he was standing in front of a brick wall or something, head shot coming in hot.
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Old February 1, 2006, 03:19 AM   #28
Blackwater OPS
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have to say try to aim for his shooting arms shoulder...right around the shoulder blades with a revolver. If u bust the bones that are supporting the rifle, he/she can't shoot that rifle. If I was close enough and felt comftorbal enough, I'd go for the head..
So its easier to shoot a bone in a persons arm than get a head shot? Why not just shoot the rifle, its a big target.
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Old February 1, 2006, 07:34 AM   #29
invention_45
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Double_Naught:

I'll buy that I don't want to shoot for the skull. I'm relying on memory from years ago that the medulla is right around where the skull opens to the spine. That's where I want my shot to hit. Now, ordinarily I would not even think of trying to make such a pinpoint shot. But I'm behind him and I have something not usually in abundance in a gunfight...time to put that spot in the sights and squeeze slowly.

As for the aorta, i'm sure you're right. i know enough anatomy to be dangerous. But what I was really trying to get across was that from the front you have direct access to the main vessels of the circulatory system, while from the back the spine could protect parts that you are really aiming for when you shoot at "center of mass".

I'd have made my thinking more clear, but I have a tendency to write a lot, so I was trying to compress.

Also, at the end I favored the back of the knee. I think the idea here was the same as the hamstring idea (sorry, forgot who said it). Destroy something that enables the BG to stand. On reflection, that would be my preferred shot except for one other thing that I was thinking but didn't mention, but then saw suggested here. The head shot would automatically be upward if I'm sitting. The knee shot would be more reliable, but might put other patrons at more risk.
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Old February 1, 2006, 08:01 AM   #30
joab
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from the back the spine could protect parts that you are really aiming for when you shoot at "center of mass".
The spine is one of those COM targets. Even Superman wouldn't be able to fight with a shattered spinal cord.

Knees are tiny little targets even from behind, especially if the BG is not cooperating by standing still
That shot will not disable his gun hand, and he's gonna be way ******
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Old February 1, 2006, 08:15 AM   #31
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He's in a restaurant? There's no need to expend ammo in such a place. Simply whip out your whetstone, sharpen your butter knife ad cleave his skull in two. Then ask for some sour cream.

Seriously, I think this situation demands tactics as much as skill. To preserve your life, your snubbie is best kept hidden from the shooter until you can gain the advantage to take a head shot with reasonable certainty of a hit. Manuever until you can get into such a position, wait for the opportunity, then take the shot.

The desire to take the shot immediately, under less than favorable conditions is what places you at risk. Make the conditions favorable, then take the shot. I know it's not the action hero thing to do, but to save others, you must first preserve your own life. The shooter MUST reload at some point. That is your opportunity. Get on him, and get the shot to the head.
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Old February 1, 2006, 09:03 AM   #32
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aaaah.....good point

Capt. Charlie: Very true. I wasn't thinking of the predictability of path. I forgot about leading. When a squirrel is running a branch, you know where he's going, but you can't predict the assailant's head path.
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Old February 1, 2006, 09:40 AM   #33
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I vote multiple shots center of mass

Under the circumstances, with all those people running around, it's the most reasonable choice. The idea is to stop the shooter from shooting. Hitting bones with bullets is very painful and debilitating. There are lots of bones in the upper back so I'd probably shoot a little high and keep shooting until I felt satisfaction or my weapon is empty.
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Old February 1, 2006, 10:18 AM   #34
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Center mass, and keep shooting till he stops moving. Even with body armor, that round is going to hurt and suprise the BG. Go for the sure shot and adjust tactics as necessary.
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Old February 1, 2006, 10:27 AM   #35
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Say you've done a double tap to COM and you hear the unmistakable "thwap thwap" of bullets hitting a vest
Alright. Learned something new already from this thread. I didn't know you heard anything when the bullet hit body armor or flesh. I thought it was just as if the bullet hit the backstop dirt mound at the range. I thought you would only hear sound if the bullet hit metal or rock. Thought the only sign you saw that you hit them was when they staggered or fell. If they staggered with no seeming effect (and they look a little overweight) then they probably have body armor.
Now I know that there is something to listen for when shooting someone.
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Old February 1, 2006, 12:20 PM   #36
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Triple tap to the posterior.
I think I'm changing my target. Do a search on the "The Hunt" forum and look up the infamous "bung hole" deer shot. You don't have to worry about a vest, or shoulder bones, or anything. The guy will go down, but probably live. Later, he will be cursing you in his jail cell as he empties his bag after he goes to the bathroom.

Last edited by Mikeyboy; February 1, 2006 at 03:32 PM.
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Old February 1, 2006, 12:24 PM   #37
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Say you've done a double tap to COM and you hear the unmistakable "thwap thwap" of bullets hitting a vest


Alright. Learned something new already from this thread. I didn't know you heard anything when the bullet hit body armor or flesh. I thought it was just as if the bullet hit the backstop dirt mound at the range. I thought you would only hear sound if the bullet hit metal or rock. Thought the only sign you saw that you hit them was when they staggered or fell. If they staggered with no seeming effect (and they look a little overweight) then they probably have body armor.
Now I know that there is something to listen for when shooting someone.
Unless your using a silencer, or a .22 all your going to hear is a bang from your gun, and maybe some ringing
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Old February 1, 2006, 01:14 PM   #38
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Unless your using a silencer, or a .22 all your going to hear is a bang from your gun, and maybe some ringing
I know that hearing hits to a vest sounds preposterous, but it's true. A few years ago we starting seeing vests showing up more and more on the streets. Because of that, our range officer set up a demonstration during qualification, and you can hear it. It almost sounds like an extension of the shot, but it is distinguishable. The weapons were 9mm.
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Old February 1, 2006, 01:35 PM   #39
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Hearing slugs impact happens.

But hearing the impact depends on a number of factors i.e. background noise level, distance from target, angle of impact, and probably many etc.s. I doubt that I would notice the sound of my slugs impacting in the heat of a deadly moment.

I like the "butt" shot idea. However, the "butt" is a small target compared to center of mass.
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Old February 1, 2006, 01:42 PM   #40
Chris Phelps
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OK here goes...


Why would I be carrying a snub? my instinct is tight groups and pulling the trigger as fast as I can, so there is no way I would be in this situation to begin with.

Ignoring that fact, lets continue. A shot to the back of the head would be good, assuming you have a clear backing, and are not risking anyone elses life. Even if the shot only buys you 1-2 seconds, that should be time enough to close the distance between you and him and grab his firearm.


BTW, since the other thread was closed, and I was chewing my tounge off wanting to say this... if a guy walks in with an AR and you go all rambo and flip the table, .223 FMJs are going to punch through that table like a paper plate. The only thing that flipping the table would do is to inform the shooter that you are prepared to have a shootout, thus making you target #1.



I do, indeed, look forward to your next "what if" post. Try to pick a better firearm in the next round, though.
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Old February 1, 2006, 02:24 PM   #41
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Why would I be carrying a snub?
I don't know why you would.

I do because it's small, light, and draws from a pocket well. It works well with shorts and a shirt tucked in while I'm at work. I don't have to look like a slob with my shirt hanging out or risk jail time by accidentally exposing my gun.

As for my off time, I don't have to listen to the typical "What are you bringing that thing for? You're just going out to a restaurant/walmart/a convenience store at 2am," when I put a gun inside my belt before leaving home. Either my wife thinks the little gun is more "civilized" than a big nasty glock or she just doesn't notice it.
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Old February 1, 2006, 03:29 PM   #42
Mikeyboy
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Ok, I'll take your guys words for it that you will here a "thump" if you hit a vest. I can see me now...an armed BG tried to rob be and I pull my CW and shot him in the chest and hear a thump...I'll be saying "hey whatya know" as he blows my brains out.
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Old February 2, 2006, 12:10 AM   #43
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The shooter MUST reload at some point. That is your opportunity. Get on him, and get the shot to the head.
If the guy drops mag and starts to grab for another and I have an opportunity, escape route or not, he absolutely isn't going to get another shot off without some holes in him.

Okay...crunch time. No Escape route. No cover. Obviously no body armour. Loved ones are with me in the line of fire.

5-shot snubbie: Up from the booth medium crouch. Quickly and steadily moving toward him, no bouncing steps. Shirt up and drawing gun from 2:00 position IWB still moving, gun up to level and front sight alignment with target, weaver stance from waist up (right handed). Eyes on target/front sight to detect if he notices me. (If he does I start shooting then and keep moving in and shooting while he is turning. All COM shots.) Still moving toward him. Keep closing until I am about twice spitting distance if possible and then all 5 as quick as possible to heart/lung. Keep closing toward him with empty gun and pistol whip that SOB once on the head before grabbing the forearm of his weapon. Keep pistol whipping the B&^$t%rd until he is dead. I would be very angry at this point in time.

.45 Cmdr: Same thing but I would shoot sooner and more times.

I probably wouldn't be too worried at the time about what was beyond the target. I might be aware of it and move sideways one way or the other to get a clear backstop, especially if it was a loved one.

Body Armour: I don't know...I might be inclined to shoot for the head in this case. Especially if I got close.
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Old February 2, 2006, 10:12 AM   #44
Glenn E. Meyer
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I'm still playing.

I don't understand this sneaking up to shoot. The guy is 10-15 yards away with his back to you.

This is not a terribly hard shot such that you should waste time moving slowly. To get close will take some time and gives him the time to shoot several more people. It also gives him time to detect you and shoot you.

Closing may or may not be a good idea. There are different doctrines such as going for cover, taking cover behind your bullets, or taking the fight to the shooter.

However, since the scenario allows me to have my Glock 19, I see no reason not to approach with my rounds leading the way, if I chose to approach.

Even with my J frame, I prefer to start the fight with a round going into the shooter.

No pauses in the firestream. Shoot him into the ground. Note that I'm not advocating spray and pray but aimed and direct fire immediately.

Or else, if there is a back door and the guy is looking the other way, as was done in Kileen by some - flee.

We see in to recent civilian interaction with rampage shooters that hesitation, the lack of appreciation of failure to stop drills and perhaps a pause to evaluate the rounds led to a bad outcome.

The recent mall shooter shot the civilian who was futzing around and thinking about the law. The courthouse guy did solid hits on the body armor and was then killed. As several of my teachers have stated you need to be aggressive. If the person is still standing, you are still shooting and/or moving. If your initial COM shots don't lead to a drop, switch targets.
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Old February 2, 2006, 03:54 PM   #45
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I'm with you Glenn. We may act all brave and tough, but here is what I would do. I would take the shot, keep shooting until I empty my gun. If he drops great, if not and he turns around to shot me, I would scream like a school girl as I fumble to reload while running out the nearest possible exit.
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Old February 2, 2006, 04:09 PM   #46
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You can close 10 yards in a few seconds. I did not suggest sneaking, this would be more of a rush, if the BG starts to turn-fire. Bottom line is you only have 5 shots witha snubbie, you want to get as close as you can and make them count. Advancing on an adversary is classic battle strategy.
Even more important you should have been sitting somewhere with a clear view of all entry/exit points, I always do this when armed. Situational awareness beats marksmanship anyday.
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Old February 2, 2006, 07:16 PM   #47
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The more I think about it the better I "like" the closing on the BG idea. This would all happen fast. Reaction times would seem like mollasssas runing uphill
plus all the factors there are to think about to come up with a strategy to tackle the issue.....Body armor....backstops.....what to do if the first couple of rounds dont do the trick....etc.

Closing gives you one solid solitary motivation.........ATTACK!! If he swings on you with the long gun at any distance your screwed, if you empty a snubbie into him and hes wearing body armor he COULD get really ****** off and swing on you, If you fire head shots and miss (highly likely considering the crap-your-pants factor) you give away the element of suprise. Maybe the best defense in this scenario is a quick VIOLENT offense.

I stand by my point before, handgun vs. rifle or shotgun = suicide. Being outguned, acting unconventional could be the answer. No matter what, the likleyhood of getting smoked is a little high for my taste!
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Old February 2, 2006, 08:02 PM   #48
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S&W 500 in shoulder holster filled with a nice JHP variant. Only one shot you say? Right between the shoulders.
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Old February 2, 2006, 10:31 PM   #49
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Variables, variables

I've been re-thinking this one over and over. I'm not happy with the choice of a 5 shot J frame as primary weapon, but even so, guy with his back to me at 10-15 yards, I have to say I go for center mass shots. I'd probably empty the cylinder into his back as fast as I could. 10-15 yards is pretty close. Shoot and duck out the nearest exit. I don't know how the guy will react to being shot at. Some people stay calm, some get ******, others cry. I don't know for sure if he's able to think tactically. He may not even have any capability with his weapon. He could jam, FTF, FTE, who knows. The different ways he reacts change the outcome dramatically. He could drop and its over, turn and shoot, start running away screaming. So I'm taking the shots. The rest we'll see.....
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Old February 4, 2006, 01:06 PM   #50
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This is one that takes some thought, but in all honesty I’d be curling into the smallest ball I could make myself. Not the bravest act, I know. However with all the slippery brown stuff that would be flying when the fear factor kicked in, all that I’d have to do is wait until he slipped in it and fell, knocking himself out. After making sure the someone called the police I’d be off to get cleaned up and buy some new shorts….and that is the simple truth. Nuts, if I pulled the gun with all that lead flying I probably shoot my toe off anyway.
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