about these "which caliber is the best" threads.

#18indycolts · January 31, 2006, 12:52 AM

People, I'm no pro about guns...just an enthusiast. Yes, I do carry for personal prot. and own for home def. I'm making this thread for the people who are curious/question the power of certain calibers. I'm a new member, but I've seen a lot of "will such and such caliber be ok for knockdown/personal protection?" Are people afraid of buying .380's, 9mm, .38 spl and the like because they aren't HUGE rounds?? I love these threads when people ask "is a 9mm a good defense round?" Well guys, I've seen death from BB's to .22's to .45's to 12 gauges. Bullets WILL kill and or STOP someone. NO MATTER the size, yes you may have to use more rounds than some...but they will do the job. A high five to the "shot placement" people!? So please don't blow me a bunch of crap over this...I'm just telling it how I have SEEN it in REAL life. Bullets work, no matter the size.

shield20 · January 31, 2006, 02:23 AM

No arguments bullets work, some just work better then others...

918v · January 31, 2006, 02:34 AM

So let's get a BB machinegun, because that must be the ideal self-defense weapon.

cheddar · January 31, 2006, 02:48 AM

Sign me up!

bermo61 · January 31, 2006, 03:10 AM

Stopping power versus killing power. The number one round responsible for the most deaths and being a non military cartridge is the .22. The reason, the lead bullets are lubricated and create a very septic wound...and the low powered round bounces around inside the body and creates extensive damage. The key is that many eventually die of these wounds but not immediately. A .22 does not transfer gobs of energy into it's target...and so the victim may still do you tremendous harm. Someone coked up, on angeldust, speed or just numb from alcohol may not be stopped by a .22 and may keep on coming for you.

Stopping power is the rounds capacity to put down an attacker so that he may not hurt you..not necessarily killing power. A .45 to the leg that breaks a femur is pretty much going to allow you a safe retreat..but will probably not be fatal. This is why cops don't carry .22's .25's or .32's as primary sidearms.

GlocksRfun · January 31, 2006, 05:27 AM

U need some good ammo... Magsafe makes some pretty good prefragmented stuff.. My .380 sounded like a .45 and whipped out a 52 grainer at 1,720 fps with 342 ft-lbs, so the package says... They claim that they're weakest .380 outguns the hottest .45 .. Some crazy SOB's did some tests and found that the .380 magsafe will "incopacitate" a siberian goat faster than any .45, Maybe they shot soemthing else, The Strasbourg test they call it. It's all about the bullet.

shield20 · January 31, 2006, 11:26 AM

Do some research on that test - some question as to if it even took place. Also be aware Magsafe usually lacks the penetration needed to reach the vitals (12-14" typically desired), especially after hitting hands and arms before COM as is common in SD situations.
Here is a good write-up on them.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article432.htm

Mikeyboy · January 31, 2006, 12:55 PM

Shield, Magsafe are made to prevent overpenetration. 12" to 14" is prime penetration for a regular defensive round, however if round with that penetration power hits 5" of soft tissue and goes out the other side, it will still be very lethal to any innocent bystanders behind the BG. Magsafes and Glasers serve a purpose....but there is no magic bullet or magic caliber.

P.S. If you read the very begining of the your link, even a .223 rifle round failed to go thru an extended arm of the FBI agent.

shield20 · January 31, 2006, 01:31 PM

Roger that Mike - a long time ago I carried Glazers in my .380 (worked for a firearms instructor who also was a dealer - good prices!).
As you stated, they were designed for Airplane operations and to limit penetration. They were an option when more energy (i.e velocity) and less penetration was intended. For general carry I think we can do alot better these days, as I think we know more with regards to so-called stopping power. I think better penetration makes for a better round (HP-like, not fmj-like).

Mikeyboy · January 31, 2006, 03:46 PM

I agree with you there, I know some people carry Magsafes and Glaser because they thing the round is more lethal than a regular JHP or FMJ round. It might be, in a limited amount target areas and circumstances, and even that is not 100%. I rather stick with what is known to kill. I have 2 rounds of glasers in the magazine of my house gun simply because I don't want to overpenetrate and have a round go into my kids bedroom. I figure if the BG is in my bedroom I hit him twice in the com with the glasers, which is at "kid level" the third if needed will go in the guys head and that will be a regular JHP round, Unless the BG is a midget that round should pass well above my kids heads if I overpenetrate.

Russ5924 · January 31, 2006, 05:17 PM

You get my vote

Harley Quinn · January 31, 2006, 05:31 PM

I agree with you, and that is one of the reasons I am for any of them as long as the placement is ideal.

I was on the job when a couple of LEO's got shot to rags and still killed 3 or 4 of the bad guys. They were shooting the poor powered 38 spl..
But when it hits the guy in the eye it stops um (usually). They were shot up bad, but both pulled through and still draw a pension.

12 gauge 00 buck 12 in the shell. 11 still in the chest cavity and one through and through, is pretty tough to come back from.

I have seen it in the legs, one into the femoral artery, bleed out. No Mas. Was not even a big caliber.

HQ

fairview mick · January 31, 2006, 07:43 PM

Just what's wrong with someone wanting to ask a legit question about calibers or ballistics. Perhaps "We Are Not as Well Informed" as you seem to be. If you don't like the thread, just like a T.V. show. "Don't look at it"

Petre · January 31, 2006, 08:38 PM

Maybe the question should be ...which calibre puts the biggest smile on your face at the range .... For me it's a nice heavy .357 load every time.

Harley Quinn · January 31, 2006, 08:52 PM

Ask and you shall receive.

What caliber do you like and why. Or you can agree, not cause problems. No give #18 a migraine.

Let's see I have numerous pistol and revolver calibers, same with rifles.
I have a 12,16, 20, 410 shotgun. Which one do you want to talk about?

Or to put it another way, what is your preferred not to get hit by? When someone pulls it out and sticks it in your direction, do you think, 'heck' thats only a 32 auto? F***um, LOL...

HQ

TX_RGR · February 1, 2006, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Magsafe makes some pretty good prefragmented stuff.. My .380 sounded like a .45 and whipped out a 52 grainer at 1,720 fps with 342 ft-lbs, so the package says... They claim that they're weakest .380 outguns the hottest .45 .. Some crazy SOB's did some tests and found that the .380 magsafe will "incopacitate" a siberian goat faster than any .45, Maybe they shot soemthing else, The Strasbourg test they call it. It's all about the bullet.

#18indycolts · February 1, 2006, 01:33 AM

sorry, I didn't mean to ruffle a few feathers..really. Just wanted to state my 2 cents. And Mick, when you're trying to watch TV and all you see is the same show...well, its kinda hard to switch channels to the same thing.

I think what I meant from this is it seems guns are like cars/trucks/stereos, to me people think that if it isn't the biggest or baddest, then it won't work. When in fact it does.

GlocksRfun · February 1, 2006, 02:59 AM

I saw the balistics gel after a magsfe bullet hit it, that's all I needed to see, I could probably put my fist in the cavity it leaves. .. I read somewere that someone used some crazy bullet for ccw, he shot and killed someone.. It went to trial and because he used a crazy bullet, they say it showed intent to kill and he did some time.. I don't believe that anyone can expect a bullet to be non-lethal.. As for efficency and a balance of knock down power to low recoil, that's what the .40 is all about.. U wanna go all out, get a 357 mag, better yet, a .454... If u are about aiming and placement, get a 9mm. if u got a good arm, throw bricks.. in reality, any caliber can be/is lethal... if u hit the brain stem, it's over. I don't care if u use a .50 bmg or a .22...

IndianaDean · February 1, 2006, 04:32 AM

I fell for the ".45 is better" philosophy. While I love my 1911s, I am contemplating picking up another HK USP in 9, because I was so accurate and fast with the one I traded to get a 1911. I could shoot the USP quicker and on target better than even my heavier weight Hi Power.

I do like the 1911, but for me it is such a handful to shoot. I find myself getting brass on the head after shooting a few rounds, and my bad wrist on my left hand (related to my herniated disks in my neck) really starts hurting after having to grip the 1911 during a long range session. I experienced no such problems with the HK USP during long sessions. I found it very comfortable to shoot.

I have 4 1911s, one is in 38 Super. I think I should probably trade one of them for the USP, keep the other three.

SixForSure · February 1, 2006, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Just what's wrong with someone wanting to ask a legit question about calibers or ballistics. Perhaps "We Are Not as Well Informed" as you seem to be. If you don't like the thread, just like a T.V. show. "Don't look at it"

I think the objection is twofold: 1. It gets asked over, and over, and over.......... 2. There is no right, wrong, or deffinitive answer. It would be like being asked repeatedly "how high is up?'

Runsalone · February 1, 2006, 06:07 PM

Oh for petes sake.

shield20 · February 1, 2006, 06:08 PM

Did you notice the amount of new(er) posters lately though? I KNOW there is a search function and all that - but new threads to old topics gives everyone a chance to learn something.

Onebum · February 2, 2006, 02:52 PM

My caliber can beat up your caliber...whats that you say? your caliber can run faster...well so what, it can't...

The thread starting post is the one I agree with the most, bullets work. The .380 has been very effective for years in what used to be the USSR, no question about that. Someone always brings up "one shot stops" and a website they saw somewhere with numbers and such. I've met NO ONE that carries a single shot pistol, most folks carry over a dozen rounds. If there are 3 attackers, would you want 3 biggies or 8 little ones?

Another on is...

"My instructor, A soldier, A cop, A gunsmith, Yoda, My psycic helper" said .XX is the best caliber.

A person gave an them an opinion, and they think it's a fact. Just because a person shoots a lot doesn't mean they know about calibers. It means they have an opinion. It's always this and only this, instead of this is good for this reason, thats good for that reason. I drive more than most everyone I know...That doesn't mean i know what gear ratio is best for gas mileage, which camshaft with give the best mid range performance, or which fuzzy dice will make you the coolest guy at McDonalds...Though pink fuzzy dice are pretty cool.

I've noticed that the folks that say the 9mm is junk, and a .45 is needed to be effective don't think the .50 is even better. Why not? .45 is bigger than 9mm, .50 is bigger than a .45, so even bigger is better, right? Just me, I'm wrong plenty, but I think its just as much about the pistol to those type of folks as it is the round.

Leif · February 2, 2006, 03:08 PM

.500 S&W, because no matter how you try to rationalize it, size matters.

Seriously, you do your research, you take all of the points into consideration and with the requisite grains of salt, and you find what works for you based on your perceived needs/wants. The point is to do your research ...

Harley Quinn · February 2, 2006, 05:12 PM

Leif Said:
Seriously, you do your research, you take all of the points into consideration and with the requisite grains of salt, and you find what works for you based on your perceived needs/wants. The point is to do your research ...

HQ agrees;

I have read quite a few threads where someone will argue their side and then turn around in another thread and say something to the affect they have not shot it or they heard, Blah-Blah.
Are they brain dead?

HQ

January 31, 2006, 05:17 PM	#11
Russ5924 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Posts: 1,874	You get my vote __________________ Russ5924

January 31, 2006, 05:31 PM	#12
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	#18, Yes! I agree with you, and that is one of the reasons I am for any of them as long as the placement is ideal. I was on the job when a couple of LEO's got shot to rags and still killed 3 or 4 of the bad guys. They were shooting the poor powered 38 spl.. But when it hits the guy in the eye it stops um (usually). They were shot up bad, but both pulled through and still draw a pension. 12 gauge 00 buck 12 in the shell. 11 still in the chest cavity and one through and through, is pretty tough to come back from. I have seen it in the legs, one into the femoral artery, bleed out. No Mas. Was not even a big caliber. HQ

January 31, 2006, 07:43 PM	#13
fairview mick Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2005 Location: Fairview Park, Ohio Posts: 781	what caliber?????????????????/ Just what's wrong with someone wanting to ask a legit question about calibers or ballistics. Perhaps "We Are Not as Well Informed" as you seem to be. If you don't like the thread, just like a T.V. show. "Don't look at it"

January 31, 2006, 08:38 PM	#14
Petre Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 622	Maybe the question should be ...which calibre puts the biggest smile on your face at the range .... For me it's a nice heavy .357 load every time. __________________ DOCTORS A The number of Doctors in the U.S. is approximately 700,000 B Accidental deaths caused by Doctors per year average 120,000 or 0.171 per Doctor GUNS A The number of legal gun owners in the U.S. is currently over 80,000,000 B The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1500 or .000188 per gun owner Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000x more dangerous than gun owners Remember, Guns don't kill people, DOCTORS do

January 31, 2006, 08:52 PM	#15
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Mick, that is the discussion, what caliber? Ask and you shall receive. What caliber do you like and why. Or you can agree, not cause problems. No give #18 a migraine. Let's see I have numerous pistol and revolver calibers, same with rifles. I have a 12,16, 20, 410 shotgun. Which one do you want to talk about? Or to put it another way, what is your preferred not to get hit by? When someone pulls it out and sticks it in your direction, do you think, 'heck' thats only a 32 auto? F***um, LOL... HQ

January 31, 2006, 12:52 AM	#1
#18indycolts Junior member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Indpls Posts: 1,159	about these "which caliber is the best" threads. People, I'm no pro about guns...just an enthusiast. Yes, I do carry for personal prot. and own for home def. I'm making this thread for the people who are curious/question the power of certain calibers. I'm a new member, but I've seen a lot of "will such and such caliber be ok for knockdown/personal protection?" Are people afraid of buying .380's, 9mm, .38 spl and the like because they aren't HUGE rounds?? I love these threads when people ask "is a 9mm a good defense round?" Well guys, I've seen death from BB's to .22's to .45's to 12 gauges. Bullets WILL kill and or STOP someone. NO MATTER the size, yes you may have to use more rounds than some...but they will do the job. A high five to the "shot placement" people!? So please don't blow me a bunch of crap over this...I'm just telling it how I have SEEN it in REAL life. Bullets work, no matter the size.

January 31, 2006, 02:23 AM	#2
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	No arguments bullets work, some just work better then others...

January 31, 2006, 02:34 AM	#3
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	So let's get a BB machinegun, because that must be the ideal self-defense weapon.

January 31, 2006, 02:48 AM	#4
cheddar Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2006 Location: Madison WIsconsin Posts: 261	Sign me up!

January 31, 2006, 03:10 AM	#5
bermo61 Member Join Date: January 24, 2006 Posts: 80	Stopping power versus killing power. The number one round responsible for the most deaths and being a non military cartridge is the .22. The reason, the lead bullets are lubricated and create a very septic wound...and the low powered round bounces around inside the body and creates extensive damage. The key is that many eventually die of these wounds but not immediately. A .22 does not transfer gobs of energy into it's target...and so the victim may still do you tremendous harm. Someone coked up, on angeldust, speed or just numb from alcohol may not be stopped by a .22 and may keep on coming for you. Stopping power is the rounds capacity to put down an attacker so that he may not hurt you..not necessarily killing power. A .45 to the leg that breaks a femur is pretty much going to allow you a safe retreat..but will probably not be fatal. This is why cops don't carry .22's .25's or .32's as primary sidearms.

January 31, 2006, 05:27 AM	#6
GlocksRfun Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 419	U need some good ammo... Magsafe makes some pretty good prefragmented stuff.. My .380 sounded like a .45 and whipped out a 52 grainer at 1,720 fps with 342 ft-lbs, so the package says... They claim that they're weakest .380 outguns the hottest .45 .. Some crazy SOB's did some tests and found that the .380 magsafe will "incopacitate" a siberian goat faster than any .45, Maybe they shot soemthing else, The Strasbourg test they call it. It's all about the bullet.

January 31, 2006, 11:26 AM	#7
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	Do some research on that test - some question as to if it even took place. Also be aware Magsafe usually lacks the penetration needed to reach the vitals (12-14" typically desired), especially after hitting hands and arms before COM as is common in SD situations. Here is a good write-up on them. http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article432.htm

January 31, 2006, 12:55 PM	#8
Mikeyboy Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Posts: 1,231	Shield, Magsafe are made to prevent overpenetration. 12" to 14" is prime penetration for a regular defensive round, however if round with that penetration power hits 5" of soft tissue and goes out the other side, it will still be very lethal to any innocent bystanders behind the BG. Magsafes and Glasers serve a purpose....but there is no magic bullet or magic caliber. P.S. If you read the very begining of the your link, even a .223 rifle round failed to go thru an extended arm of the FBI agent.

January 31, 2006, 01:31 PM	#9
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	Roger that Mike - a long time ago I carried Glazers in my .380 (worked for a firearms instructor who also was a dealer - good prices!). As you stated, they were designed for Airplane operations and to limit penetration. They were an option when more energy (i.e velocity) and less penetration was intended. For general carry I think we can do alot better these days, as I think we know more with regards to so-called stopping power. I think better penetration makes for a better round (HP-like, not fmj-like).

January 31, 2006, 03:46 PM	#10
Mikeyboy Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Posts: 1,231	I agree with you there, I know some people carry Magsafes and Glaser because they thing the round is more lethal than a regular JHP or FMJ round. It might be, in a limited amount target areas and circumstances, and even that is not 100%. I rather stick with what is known to kill. I have 2 rounds of glasers in the magazine of my house gun simply because I don't want to overpenetrate and have a round go into my kids bedroom. I figure if the BG is in my bedroom I hit him twice in the com with the glasers, which is at "kid level" the third if needed will go in the guys head and that will be a regular JHP round, Unless the BG is a midget that round should pass well above my kids heads if I overpenetrate.

February 1, 2006, 01:33 AM	#17
#18indycolts Junior member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Indpls Posts: 1,159	sorry, I didn't mean to ruffle a few feathers..really. Just wanted to state my 2 cents. And Mick, when you're trying to watch TV and all you see is the same show...well, its kinda hard to switch channels to the same thing. I think what I meant from this is it seems guns are like cars/trucks/stereos, to me people think that if it isn't the biggest or baddest, then it won't work. When in fact it does.

February 1, 2006, 02:59 AM	#18
GlocksRfun Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 419	I saw the balistics gel after a magsfe bullet hit it, that's all I needed to see, I could probably put my fist in the cavity it leaves. .. I read somewere that someone used some crazy bullet for ccw, he shot and killed someone.. It went to trial and because he used a crazy bullet, they say it showed intent to kill and he did some time.. I don't believe that anyone can expect a bullet to be non-lethal.. As for efficency and a balance of knock down power to low recoil, that's what the .40 is all about.. U wanna go all out, get a 357 mag, better yet, a .454... If u are about aiming and placement, get a 9mm. if u got a good arm, throw bricks.. in reality, any caliber can be/is lethal... if u hit the brain stem, it's over. I don't care if u use a .50 bmg or a .22...

February 1, 2006, 04:32 AM	#19
IndianaDean Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2004 Location: Indiana(obviously) Posts: 362	I fell for the ".45 is better" philosophy. While I love my 1911s, I am contemplating picking up another HK USP in 9, because I was so accurate and fast with the one I traded to get a 1911. I could shoot the USP quicker and on target better than even my heavier weight Hi Power. I do like the 1911, but for me it is such a handful to shoot. I find myself getting brass on the head after shooting a few rounds, and my bad wrist on my left hand (related to my herniated disks in my neck) really starts hurting after having to grip the 1911 during a long range session. I experienced no such problems with the HK USP during long sessions. I found it very comfortable to shoot. I have 4 1911s, one is in 38 Super. I think I should probably trade one of them for the USP, keep the other three.

February 1, 2006, 06:07 PM	#21
Runsalone Member Join Date: March 27, 2005 Posts: 54	Oh for petes sake.

February 1, 2006, 06:08 PM	#22
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	Did you notice the amount of new(er) posters lately though? I KNOW there is a search function and all that - but new threads to old topics gives everyone a chance to learn something.

February 2, 2006, 02:52 PM	#23
Onebum Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2005 Location: VA near DC Posts: 192	My caliber can beat up your caliber...whats that you say? your caliber can run faster...well so what, it can't... The thread starting post is the one I agree with the most, bullets work. The .380 has been very effective for years in what used to be the USSR, no question about that. Someone always brings up "one shot stops" and a website they saw somewhere with numbers and such. I've met NO ONE that carries a single shot pistol, most folks carry over a dozen rounds. If there are 3 attackers, would you want 3 biggies or 8 little ones? Another on is... "My instructor, A soldier, A cop, A gunsmith, Yoda, My psycic helper" said .XX is the best caliber. A person gave an them an opinion, and they think it's a fact. Just because a person shoots a lot doesn't mean they know about calibers. It means they have an opinion. It's always this and only this, instead of this is good for this reason, thats good for that reason. I drive more than most everyone I know...That doesn't mean i know what gear ratio is best for gas mileage, which camshaft with give the best mid range performance, or which fuzzy dice will make you the coolest guy at McDonalds...Though pink fuzzy dice are pretty cool. I've noticed that the folks that say the 9mm is junk, and a .45 is needed to be effective don't think the .50 is even better. Why not? .45 is bigger than 9mm, .50 is bigger than a .45, so even bigger is better, right? Just me, I'm wrong plenty, but I think its just as much about the pistol to those type of folks as it is the round. __________________ Da Bum

February 2, 2006, 03:08 PM	#24
Leif Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2005 Posts: 1,237	.500 S&W, because no matter how you try to rationalize it, size matters. Seriously, you do your research, you take all of the points into consideration and with the requisite grains of salt, and you find what works for you based on your perceived needs/wants. The point is to do your research ...

February 2, 2006, 05:12 PM	#25
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	No right and wrong, for most it is biased. Leif Said: Seriously, you do your research, you take all of the points into consideration and with the requisite grains of salt, and you find what works for you based on your perceived needs/wants. The point is to do your research ... HQ agrees; I have read quite a few threads where someone will argue their side and then turn around in another thread and say something to the affect they have not shot it or they heard, Blah-Blah. Are they brain dead? HQ