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Old January 29, 2006, 12:47 PM   #1
TheSandman
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Newb to CCW, many questions

I am in the process of getting my CCW permit, I have already bought a gun (XD 9), I've had a lot of questions going around in my mind about certain scenarios when I should draw my weapon. I was talking about my girlfriend last night about and she got me thinking, now I am not saying that CCW isn't needed, but what are certain scenarios when you had to draw your weapon? I mean when most people will rob, they will come from behind and put the gun to your back right? I believe that you only draw your weapon when your life in danger, but what abaout someone you don't even know, but I have a scenario that I just thought about. Saturday night and your walking downtown with you girlfriend, and you pass by an apartment complex and notice their is a confrontation between a man and a women, he begans to beat her until she is almost unconcious, not noticing that I am walking by, should I approach him with my weapon drawn or should I say something to him about what he is doing, then he would more then likely approach me, then I would give him a verbal warning, and then I would draw my weapon? If anyone has any situations they ran into where they drew their gun or if it was an "iffy" situation.

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Old January 29, 2006, 01:03 PM   #2
mete
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First get the very best training course you can find .That will give you many of the answers. ...As for your specific question The best thing is to start shouting as loud as you can ,without approaching, to draw other peoples attention to the problem .If you have a cell phone call 911....Police going into domestic quarrels are often in great danger and some departments require at least two officers for that call. The people are in a highly emotional state and sometimes a man and woman fighting will turn on the officer....BTW a CCW does not make you an officer , don't try to be one.
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Old January 29, 2006, 01:05 PM   #3
threefivesevenmag
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Read Local Laws, Make personal choices.

You only draw your weapon if you are in fear of your life. This includes: death, serious bodily injury (maiming), rape, or kidnapping.

If the shoot is justifiable, you should easily be able to prove one or more of those factors to a judge and jury.

Only draw your weapon if you are going to fire. Only draw it in order to cease hostilities to yourself or loved ones.

Stay situationally aware as much as you can and more than likely you can avoid being "taken at gunpoint from behind." Do not go to bad areas of town if you can avoid them. Do not look for trouble.

You have a gun, which makes you more responsible for your actions and dealing with confrontations you might be dealt with in society. You do not want to draw your gun unless you intend to use it and you feel it is 100% justifiable to the law. If not, you might be going to prison. So be aware of your local laws when it comes to CCW and uses.

As a CCW person, use discretion when getting involved in third party scenarios. You are not there to be a hero or cop. You can be a better witness in some situations, but that is a personal choice you must make for yourself. The woman in question, if you shoot the man, might testify that the man wasn't hurting her too bad and you just out of the blue "shot" him. That would hurt you in court. Domestic violence is a tricky subject and usually nothing good can come from good citizen intervention other than being a witness and calling the police.

Now, if she was being kidnapped and was announcing this and was trying not to be thrown in a car...by all means, intervene.
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Old January 29, 2006, 01:22 PM   #4
BigFunWMU
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When you carry a gun you should also carry a cell phone. Most of the time, if you are not directly involved, be a good witness and dial 911.

Also, any time you draw your gun, YOU should call 911. Reason for that is: someone is probably going to call the police. The police usually start with looking at the person who called as the good guy and the other guy as the bad guy. Don't be the bad guy.
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Old January 29, 2006, 01:52 PM   #5
Capt Charlie
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Also, any time you draw your gun, YOU should call 911. Reason for that is: someone is probably going to call the police. The police usually start with looking at the person who called as the good guy and the other guy as the bad guy. Don't be the bad guy.
Very true! Unless you work in LE, you couldn't believe how often this happens, and how often the complainant ends up being the bad guy. They do it to cover their own backsides. It's an old, if not very good, street trick, but if we can't get your side of the story, you could very well end up looking like the BG.

This happens a lot with vehicles too. A car is involved in a robbery, or a hit and run, and the owner/driver realizes he's been made, he'll often try to file a stolen vehicle report shortly thereafter.

Always report any incident in which you were forced to pull a weapon!
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Old January 29, 2006, 02:53 PM   #6
alexander hamilton
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in my state of virginia a risk of "serious bodily harm" of a third party is ok to intervene with gun drawn. however, i would make sure there really was risk of serious bodily harm(in this case concussion, which qualifys in va). i would also stay back as domestic situations are really complicated and yucky. 911 and holler in manly voice before drawing though. i forget the correct name(i think its "disparity of force) for someone beating with fists on someone much weaker than them. that qualifies as a deadly weapon here in va too. btw, we have no "duty to retreat" either.
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Old January 29, 2006, 10:34 PM   #7
GHT
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FWIW I don't carry a gun.
There is no crime where I live and I don't go out much.
If I have to travel to somewhere relatively dangerous I will carry a weapon, but the burden in CT is fairly onerous.
It is a state full of lefties and small-minded fools that will freak if they see a weapon, so it is easier not to carry, for fear of the repercussions.
On the other hand the pistol permit in CT includes carry (no special permit for CC).

So the answer is: only carry if you are mentally prepared to. Act as you would if you weren't carrying a weapon (if the guy is smacking his woman around call 911, don't go poppin' any caps).
Don't drink any alcohol when you are carrying a weapon and vice versa.

It's a serious thing to do. I know we all discuss how, when and where we would shoot, but the idea is to avoid shooting at all.

If you seriously want to bust perps become a cop in a big city and volunteer for "outstanding warrants". You'll get all the action you can handle

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Old January 29, 2006, 11:12 PM   #8
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Good rule of thumb for the use of deadly force...if you were sitting in front of a jury...can you convince all twelve that there was only one option to use...and that was deadly force. Could you have run away? Could you have called 911?

Remember this...a good attorney taking you all the way through a criminal trial may cost in the neighborhood of $50,000 or more with an uncertain outcome. Seems like a 911 call would be a little cheaper in the case you described.

When you draw your weapon you give the other guy the right to shoot and kill you in self defense...even if he is committing a crime! Showing a weapon is a form of assault and can land you before a judge.

Don't pull a gun unless you have NO other choice and then do not hesitate..shoot to kill! (of course you will tell the police you shot to stop the imminent threat)...that sounds way better to a jury!
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Old January 29, 2006, 11:21 PM   #9
nscale
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Protection of an Innocent

I am not advocating pulling and using your weapon in this seituation, however, personnally I would yell and scream at the guy. As already discussed this would get other peoples attention, but it would also possibly draw the BG away from the innocent victum. I would have your girlfriend call 911 so you can concentrate and be aware of the actions of the bad guy and any other bystanders.
I would not approach the guy, instead I would try to get him to come at me. Now I am no cop and I would hope the worst that could happen here is a shouting match between me and the bg, at a distance. If he came my way I would make him chase me around a parked car or otherwise prevent physical contact (if possible) and make every attempt to escape. This would keep him from doing any more harm to the victom until the cops arrive.

Worst case scenerio, you can not escape his advances and must make him stop. At this point you will protect yourself.

Now this may not be the proper thing to do, and I am not sure about the legalities of this approach. What I do know is this. If that was my daughter being abused. I could not stand by and watch as he continued beating her as we waited for the cops.
And the fact is - That is someones Daughter
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Old January 30, 2006, 01:11 AM   #10
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I agree with the advice to go to a CCW course from a reputable trainer in your area, first of all.

In my locale, you don't draw unless your life is threatened and in clear danger. You don't draw with the idea of intervening. Use your cell phone and call the cops for something like that.
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Old January 30, 2006, 01:28 AM   #11
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You must never do anything while CCW that you wouldnt do unarmed.

A CCW dose not mean you get to play police officer.

Before you pull your gun out remember: never escalate the level of violence. They may have a gun themselves and I hope I dont offend anyone but women who get beat have a tendency to defend the men who beat them, shes as much a threat to you if you pull a gun on him as he is.

Protect the woman you are with, doing that means protecting yourself and staying outside of dangerous situations. Watch each others back and dont involve yourself in dangerous situations anymore than you can help.

Draw attention to the ******* and call the cops.

You DONT draw your weapon to THREATEN people, and you DONT FIGHT with your weapon. The ONLY reason you draw your weapon is to STOP SOMEONE FROM TAKING A LIFE.

Last edited by gac009; January 30, 2006 at 02:33 AM.
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Old January 30, 2006, 04:04 AM   #12
Jeff22
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dynamics of confrontation

Do you know any local cops?

It might be good to investigate a little bit and discover details about the kinds of stranger-on-stranger street crimes that happen in your area. This information will give you a better idea about what to expect, or at least what kind of situations might be most common.

Most people have an idea about how things go, but they often have many misconceptions as well.

We don't have that much stranger-on-stranger street crime where I live, and most of it is alcohol fueled confrontations downtown around bar time. The other common dynamic (which hasn't been happening much lately) is someone being accosted in the parking lot of a gas station or grocery store late at night, caught by surprise and robbed.

Situational awareness can prevent lots of problems. And if you can identify some particular areas and locations as being high risk, do all that you can to avoid them. It's easier to avoid trouble than to deal with trouble when it comes to find you, but at least with a CCW you have the option to be prepared.

Always carry a high intensity light and a fully charged cell phone. Think of your CCW piece as a way to protect yourself while you call 911 and get the cops rolling to save you.
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Old February 3, 2006, 11:54 PM   #13
TheSandman
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thanks for all the replies, I understand about the domestic dispute, but what happens if I yell at the guy and tell him to quit hitting her, and he begins to approach me, what should I yell to him? I will be taking a CCW course within a few weeks, but I just had the questions on the top of my head..
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Old February 4, 2006, 01:06 AM   #14
Hayley
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*

"...what happens if I yell at the guy and tell him to quit hitting her, and he begins to approach me, what should I yell to him?"

This isn't meant as criticism: you can get into an endless maze of "what ifs" hoping to establish some kind of rule governing a given situation and find you are left feeling just as uncertain as ever you did. The fact is, as has been said before, you have a license to carry but not to use a deadly weapon. You have to judge when your right of self defense takes priority. Most likely that will never happen but you can never hope to construct a hypothetical scenario that will guide your actions if ever it does. Just remember that CC is a very serious responsibility that requires a level head. It's not just you safety at stake.

sorry if that was too preachy
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Old February 4, 2006, 11:10 AM   #15
fairview mick
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ccw

Sandman
FOLLOW METE'S ADVICE TO A TEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mickey
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Old February 4, 2006, 12:09 PM   #16
TheSandman
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not too preachy at all, very understandable
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Old February 5, 2006, 08:27 PM   #17
alexander hamilton
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while not legally or even morally obligated to help the woman, it would be the noble thing to do. i would not involve the gun unless you have to. one citizen stopping a crime is a small chunk. more people doing their part gives us a safer land. if i saw violent crime i would get involved and hopefully my weapon would never have to be drawn. of course, i would call the cops first.

i think i should also mention that i believe ccw or open carry is a right AND AN OBLIGATION. i believe that to truly be an american citizen you must carry a gun 24/7.

im glad you are taking the time to discuss it ahead of time.
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Old February 5, 2006, 08:52 PM   #18
TexasSIGMan
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Every person that carries a weapon for defense should read this book.
I have no connection to the publisher but I've seen this recommended by many many attorneys.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/096...lance&n=283155

Amazon shows it unavailable but search for the title and author.
I found a copy and it's worth looking for. Boring to read, but eye opening.
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Old February 5, 2006, 10:30 PM   #19
CraigJS
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Also anytime that you have to use you weapon, either shooting it or haveing to show it to stop the threat, USE YOUR CELL PHONE! Describe what YOU look like and that YOUR the good guy!! Hair color, what your wearing, etc. Control any weapons on the scene, don't allow anything to be moved or taken.. When the LEO's arrive, if safe to do so lay your gun down at your feet, put your hands up, and comply COMPLETELY with what the Cops tell you to do.. CALL YOUR LAWYER, try to limit what you say. And if you talk only answer the questions asked. Remember anything you say MAY be used against you, let your lawyer do most your talking..
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Old February 6, 2006, 03:56 AM   #20
guntotin_fool
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THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO SAY IS "EVERY STATE IS DIFFERENT, LEARN YOUR OWN STATES LAWS."

Some states have a good samaritan law. You can not not act. and you are covered against penalty if you do act.

Some states will ONLY allow you to draw your weapon after you have tried to evade the threat. Some states word the self defense laws that Only threats against YOU qualify. they may not prosecute you for saving your wife or childs life, but some states are worded that only threats against your life can be resisted with an armed response.

Some states allow you to intervene to disrupt any felony.

Get the point? Asking a guy from NY about the laws in NV or WY is a good way to get into trouble. Like wise in reverse.

When i am in florida, i am governed by a distinctly differing set of laws from when i am in MN. I have to be very careful about the differences. A good place to start is Packing.org. it will give a synopsis of your laws and should provide you with some leads to those best suited to teach you more about your legal responsibiliities in your state.
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Old February 6, 2006, 08:14 AM   #21
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The only thing I haven't seen here yet is this: At least in Florida, it's a crime to even threaten somebody while you are in possession of a firearm, concealed or not.

So, if I were you, I would think about NOT carrying until you have taken the course (which will likely involve way less about guns and shooting than about self defense law).

In the meantime see if you can find your state's statutes online. It's easy in Florida. Look for the self defense statutes AND the firearms/carry statutes. In Florida, they're separate but, of course, they work together to tell you what you basically can and cant do. Here, the self-defense statutes are found under "crimes", if memory serves, and the firearms/carry statutes are under something like "weapons and firearms". I was able to find them by googling "florida statutes". The first item listed went right to the State of Florida's own statutes webpage.

And if you're still not sure, get your lawyer's advice. But be aware that lawyers have different styles. Mine sometimes gives me a little explaination why I should/shouldn't do something, other times he just says "dont do it". I have learned the hard way that I ignore his advice at my great peril (I dropped a restraining order against his advice because I was a stupid sucker for a sob story).

If you don't have one you should pay a consulting fee (used to be around $75-$100 around here) for a half hour initial Q&A session. Then you at least have somebody you know and can call if life turns bad one fine day. You might have to call around some. I imagine there are lawyers who don't want to give out gun advice because they don't like (the idea of you having) them, so if you detect that attitude, move on. It's a lot like cops. I've seen every attitude from scornful looks (on seeing my CCWL) to being asked if I want to sell my gun.

Good luck !
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Old February 7, 2006, 10:30 AM   #22
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If you have to

A good rule is if you have the time very quickly say to yourself ( Well Your Honor) I did this or that if it makes sense then ok if not be a dam good witness. Could keep your butt out of trouble. But just my 2 cents.
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Old February 25, 2006, 10:47 AM   #23
TheSandman
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bringing this one back up.....good info guys, I will be taking the CW course in the next few weeks, but I have another scenario that I was thinking about last week. If I am walking to my car with my weapon concealed, a robber comes, puts a gun to my back, asks for my wallet and of course I comply with him and give him my wallet or he will kill me, he takes it and runs, what should I do about this one? Sorry for all the dumb questions, but liek I said, I have it on my mind, so I want to ask it.

Thanks
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Old February 25, 2006, 11:21 AM   #24
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Let him go. Get as much visual info you can and call the police. If he turns to run, your life is no longer threatened. As stated before, check your local laws. Here in the firearm freindly state of Massachusetts, I believe you could be the one in trouble drawing at that point. I am admittedly not expertly versed in our often confusing laws here, but if you or a loved one is not going to die, don't draw.
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Old February 26, 2006, 08:56 AM   #25
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The car question - you let him go because he is running away and no longer a threat. The first question - I would say yell and try and stop the man. Hopefully, he runs away and it ends there. In my state I would have the right to protect myself and others lives if needed.
Of course, the use of deadly force is considered a last option. My state laws state that Civilians have a duty to retreat. Deadly force (drawing your weapon) is only an option if there are no others.

My instructer made us really think in class when he put a similar "what if" out there. What if the man/women taking the beating was the BG and the one giving the beating turn the tables on them. Now you shot a man defending himself. You really have to be sure you know what is truly going on.
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