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Old January 29, 2006, 12:24 AM   #26
lightfootMT
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too fast !

Powerderman, could you post a link to a website verifying those speeds of 2/100th of a second, that seems too fast for me to believe. I can believe 44/100ths to pull-cock-fire-and rehoster.

Quote: The world's record is held by Bob Munden, who shoots as the factory rep for Browning. His time for the first shot is .02 seconds. That's two hundredths of a second!
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Old January 29, 2006, 12:43 AM   #27
bermo61
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Great thread!

Everytime I go to the range i see the same thing....people have one dimensional shooting practice. Weaver or police stance...and slow firing round after round. AAAAAarrrrrrrrggggghhhh! It drives me crazy because i know these people will get themselves killed in a gunfight. The good news is that statistically they will never see one.

Practice strong and weak hand...double taps..head shots in case of body armor which anyone can buy on e-bay nowadays. Reloading and firing...emptying the mag as fast as possible.

And then get some snap caps and do lots of dry firing practice from the hip or from whereever you carry....also close range where you have to hip shoot.

practice in the desert...firing from behind cover both sides...jog around and then when you are winded...check you accuracy...you won't believe how bad it sucks under stress or simulated stress.

And play paintball..lots of it. Its fun anyway and teaches you a lot about on the run tactics.

If you do all this....you MIGHT have a chance at being prepared in a gunfight!
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Old January 29, 2006, 12:55 AM   #28
lightfootMT
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no need...

for a link, I looked him up myself. so happens i dont live that far from Butte, MT. But i will still have to see exactly what he is doing in .02 seconds.
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Old January 29, 2006, 01:02 AM   #29
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As has been stated before, if you aren't in condition orange or better when trouble goes down, you are likely dead or seriously hurt already.

You have to be AWARE!!!!!!

Also, remember distance and cover. Practice shooting and drawing while moving. Go over what-ifs. My favorite is: My girlfriend, kids and I are together when trouble happens. What do you do with them to protect them? Do you do it first or draw and address the threat first? The correct answer varies depending on your skill and the situation.

If you are within 10 feet or so, a simple lateral step will throw you far enough off his line that he will have a hard time reacting and hitting you in a vital organ. This is what I practice over and over. Slide step left, weak hand up to do a palm strike or a eye jab while drawing. I can do that and get two shots off from a protected gun position within 2 seconds. I can retreat to cover and get a third aimed shot in shortly after that.

Cover, distance, angled or lateral movement away from the threat. Those are tactics that increase your odds tremendously. Of course there are some times that it is just your day to die. Run, fire some semi aimed shots while moving if possible (clear shot or angled downward), just get the hell away from them.

Do not stop moving. If you stop moving you are dead.
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Old January 29, 2006, 03:39 AM   #30
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No prob, Lightfoot.

I saw him (Bob Munden) during an exhibition shoot in El Paso, TX, during the '80's. To say that this guy is awesome is the understatement of the year.

I saw this guy draw and fan two shots from a Colt SAA so fast it sounded like an MP5 cycling. This guy is almost unbelieveable!
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Old January 29, 2006, 11:04 AM   #31
Koz
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This talk of quickdrawing reminded me of this article.

http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html

Oh, and the average reaction time is .2 seconds, not 2.
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Old January 29, 2006, 11:32 AM   #32
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To answer the original question, low 1 second times. We did this drill recently with large and small steel poppers at around 15 yards. Most of the guys were doing mid 1 second, two of the faster shooters were right around 1.04/1.06 seconds and 1 shooter had a sub second time of .97 seconds. This was with a timer (IPSC/IDPA), drawing from the holster and hitting the steel target. It was a fun and interesting drill that I initially thought was going to be boring.

Last edited by k9lwt; February 1, 2006 at 09:55 AM.
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Old January 30, 2006, 05:30 AM   #33
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Grip-Clear-Acquire-Engage


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Old January 30, 2006, 06:14 AM   #34
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i shoot everuything befor i through it away just about lol
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Old January 30, 2006, 02:50 PM   #35
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If you can pull your gun and fire like most people sign there name, I think you will be in good shape. I sign my name around 20 to 25 time a day, I have gotten to a point I dont evern have to look at it. I keep seeing people say to get you mucles to remember the actions. It seems like some soud advice. In the end practice makes perfect. If you do have to pull and fire on some one all the actions should be smooth as silk.
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Old January 30, 2006, 03:11 PM   #36
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Kos

Cool article...

However, too much missing info.

Also a photo series would measure from grabbing the gun to firing the gun...

The western speed draw is measured from the time the shooter releases the start button to the time the bullet impacts the target... and stops the clock.

The time is actually stopped a couple of nano-seconds before the gun is back in the holster.

Reaction time is just what it says... It is how long it takes to REACT to the threat... AVERAGE reaction time of the AVERAGE person is, in fact, about 2 seconds!!!!!!!!!

We have no idea from what stance, or what kind of holster, or where he was wearing the hoster, Agent Jelly Bryce was drawing from...

However, credit where credit is due... Agent Bryce is a perfect example of how a well-practiced draw-and-shoot can catch a BG unawares. 10 BG's are dead because of his excellent ability to draw and place his shot in a professional, deliberate and un-hesitating manner... Hence he lives... the BG doesn't...

(See my earlier posts, this subject)

If you want to test this... stand beside your friend who is at the ready and pointing his gun at the target...

Then you stand where he can see you, slighlty closer to the target than your friend. Then you draw, deliberately, not too fast, and put a round in the target... Your gun will very likely go off first...

This will ONLY serve to show you that his reaction time is not as fast as you think it is... and remember... HE WAS READY FOR YOU.

The more practiced you get... the more pronouced the differential will be... remember, also, he will begin to see your "tells".

DO NOT READ ANYTHING ELSE INTO THIS EXPERIMENT
JUST TAKE IT FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH... A DEMO OF REACTION TIME AND NOTHING MORE!!

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Old January 30, 2006, 05:20 PM   #37
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"We have no idea from what stance, or what kind of holster, or where he was wearing the hoster, Agent Jelly Bryce was drawing from.."

Actually we do. It was documented in thea November 1945 issue of LIFE magazine and timed by high speed electronic flash photography.

The stance wasd a forward crouch,
The holster was a Tom Threepersons open top forward rake design worn on the belt on the strong side.
THe pistol was an N frame .357 Magnum revolver.
THe target was man sized,
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Old January 30, 2006, 10:28 PM   #38
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Quote:
I'm not talking about a BG who has already drawn down on you... Much less TWO BG's... Duh!
Oh I get it. You are going to quick draw first on the "bad" guys who don't have out guns, or don't have out other weapons that would readily justify to witnesses the reason for your draw? Witness accounts will portray you as the gun happy bad guy. I like the preventative tactic, but it may be a hard sell. I have trained several places and nobody suggests drawing down on folks who aren't showing weapons or blatantly overt signs of being about to do you harm.

Have you used this often? Have you had luck with the courts using it?
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Old January 30, 2006, 10:37 PM   #39
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Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Practice that way.
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Old January 30, 2006, 10:45 PM   #40
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If you are in well covered CCW(like UNDER a shirt like original post) and have a deadly threat suddenly appear UNEXSPECTEDLY I'll bet NOONE out there gets a COM hit in less than 2 seconds.
The real world is much different than the range!
However that 2 seconds that the master CAN do it is plenty adequate!
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Old January 31, 2006, 12:10 AM   #41
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I used to be a regurgitator of the phrase," slow is smooth, smooth is fast." That means slow equals fast, for those with less math genes than me. Doesn't compute. Nor does it in reality.
Trainining should start out smooth, to get the mechanics down. If you're comfortable, you're really not pushing yourself. We should all come to a point where we are getting a little wild. Crank it down a notch, and work until that is smooth. Ever increasing speed and accuracy. I was able to train with and watched Scotty Warren draw and fire. He looked like a spaz. To him, he was in the zone. He definitly was not slow, he was fast. But he was fast and smooth. BIG DIFFERENCE. I believe if you're sitting on your backside, not wanting to increase your speed and accuracy b/c some dead cowboy said being slow and accurate is good enough, you are selling yourself short.
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Old January 31, 2006, 12:11 AM   #42
281 Quad Cam
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I've grown up with "The time to have a gun in your hand is BEFORE trouble starts" method. I've often heard people downplay the importance of even having the firearm readily available (IE in a zipper pouch taking 15 seconds to deply) because they assume they will have the gun in hand before anything bad happens. Awareness can take you a long way.... but be realistic.

Not only do I see a flaw in the circumstance that you are attacked without warning or interview... But it's very hard to get away with legally. Even in cases where the evil do have intent, deploying your weapon before they assault you, is intent on YOUR part... Reality doesn't matter, courtroom theatrics do.

From a survival standpoint - go for it.
However I don't consider prison to be living, so keeping my freedom plays as large a role in my carry etiquette as simple survival. I may even prefer to die than be labeled a convicted murderer, social scum, with life in prison. Some would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but I can't bring myself to be comfortable with that.

So from that personal standpoint, which no one else has to share... I place emphasis on the speed of deployment. I DON'T train for documented averages. I DON'T train for numbers calculated by defense guru's. I train my mind to believe the bad guy will react instinctively and quickly.
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Old February 1, 2006, 10:12 AM   #43
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Double Naught,

I didn't post it, so I'm not sure, but I think the point is that you need to be able to draw and rapidly fire on threats that are not necessarily guns. I need to be able to quickly and rapidly stop a threat with a knife, hammer, shovel, axe, etc. If two people have (or even one person has)already drawn on me, I'm in trouble either way.
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Old February 1, 2006, 03:04 PM   #44
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Breacher Up!

That's pretty much what it means, man. The point isn't to start out slow and smooth and then stay there forever. The fundamental principle of the "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" ideal is that if you practice slow and smooth then the speed comes naturally. It's all about muscle memory...if you practice fast and jerky and all jacked up, then that's how you're going to consistently perform. ..doesn't matter how cool you think you look in the mirror. If you practice slow and smooth and work your way up, then speed will be a natural byproduct of your training...speed shouldn't be your ultimate goal, it should just be something gained along the way.

There will be plenty of people who have enough personal experience to disagree, but I know what I have taught and what works for me. This is a tried-and-true philosophy for dynamic entry and CQB, it's how I learned, and it's what works for me.
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Old February 2, 2006, 07:16 PM   #45
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Fast draw practice

Ok folks, here's my .02 worth for the question. Practice is a given! I was on the prowl one night and found some info. First in looking for a private range or gun club I met a member of the U.S.P.S.A. His suggestion was to join either USPSA or IDPA. Both of these organizations will give you what we are looking for. Practice at drawing and getting your shots off and making them count while being timed. The gentelman that I spoke with stated that he can, from the sound of the horn draw and let the first shot go in 8th's of a second. His statement is practice, practice, and practice some more. I do realize the competetors are using holsters made for competing, but that is quick. So IMO join either club and who knows where it may lead. He also stated a private club that you have use of from sun-up to sun-down will be a great help with the practice end of things. I'll be attending my first match on the 18th of this month.
I was told for equipment the holster must cover the trigger guard and you will need a total of 4 extra mags in pouches. Be prepared to use approx. 150 rounds for the match. 9mm is the minimum caliber for auto's and a 10 round clip. Give it a go! What do you have to loose?
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Old February 3, 2006, 09:31 PM   #46
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Reaction time is just what it says... It is how long it takes to REACT to the threat... AVERAGE reaction time of the AVERAGE person is, in fact, about 2 seconds!!!!!!!!!

I don't know how you are defining "reaction". but the average response time from stimulus is .2 seconds.
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Old February 4, 2006, 01:42 AM   #47
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15%

That is how low the documented accuracy of TRAINED LE drops to in real life gunfight situations from 95% accuracy at the range.

Situational awareness is number one, but there are so many posible scenarios that you can be caught with your pants down and need to draw fast and shoot.

I drove a gypsy cab in one of the worst neighborhoods in LA in the late 80's and saw plenty then. My biggest scare was not the gangbanger that held a gun to my head as a stunt to see if I would soil my underwear, it was the hooker that on April fools day got in and as I turned around to ask her destination she blasted at me one of those little plastic bottles that you pull a cord and confetti strings pops out. For an instant I believed I had just been shot, the last thing on my mind was the box cutter I kept under my leg for defense while I drove.

I got hooked to the adrenaline rush, every pasenger was a new adventure, you develop street skills very fast in an eniroment like that, got wise and got out after seeing another driver hold a rag ot a fellow cabbie's head after being shot point blank with a 38, he suvrived but I still catch miself checking my surroundings via my car mirrors when I park at the mall.

I personally believe that the one that fires first has the advantage, once someone blasts at you, even if he misses the shock will leave most of us, particularly those that have neer been there before (most of us for sure) unable to react like the "Rambo" we all like to think we are.

Another thing is that the one to fire first, even if he misses has already the gun out and ready to go for a second, third, fourth... shot. You have to be incredibly cool to just stand there and take aim to return fire in an accurate enough fashion to put two on the chest and one in the eye!

And it can be done, a competition shooter here bumped into a BG fleeing a robbery and got shot in the process, the BG saw the gun on the guy's waist and shot him in case'. The shooter got 2 shots from the floor before passing out, one went into the BG's side, the second also going through the car window killed the BG entering just in front of his ear as he drove away.

The flipside is that a LEO with many years in the force, admired for being a great shot and winning many range matches, got in a confrontation with a BG, 10 feet from each other emptied their guns at each other, neither one was hit.

Running as mentioned here alrady is not a bad idea, hitting a moving target under strees is not that easy, gives you time to get your gun out and fight proiding you have traned yourself properly to do so.

A similar tread is being discussed on another forum I frequent and one comment is that you react as you train, that cost the lives of some LEO on a gunfight because as they where trained to do they where picking up their spent shells from the floor in the middle of battle!
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Old February 4, 2006, 08:55 AM   #48
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I don't think you need to worry about drawing fast at all. i have only been shooting for about a year now but i think i take it very very seriously, you know with a lot of respect. I think you might be thinking a life or death situation like its a bad western movie. You might want to consider learning how to draw effeciently before you get to the fast part. I mean there are alot of different holsters out there and alot of different carrying techniques. You need to first find which one is the absolute best for your situation example;do you spend alot of time in a car?, do you just walk everywhere you go?, can you carry open and if so would you be comfortable doing so?, you know stuff like that. after try various different methods start drawing very slowly at different angles and positions and such and hitting a perfect ten everytime. The speed will come after you are completely comfortable, you wont even realize it, it will just happen. Anyhow im not trying to act like a know-it-all because im not, just trying to give honest advice if you want to take it fine if not we all have different opinions. I for one am not even considering fast draw techiniques as i am still learning to be a better shooter in general.
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Old February 4, 2006, 10:58 AM   #49
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AS Jeff Cooper said "Draw as fast as you can! Shoot as slow as you must!"

That's very good advice.
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Old February 6, 2006, 09:57 PM   #50
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However fast you can draw and shoot ACCURATELY. Numbers are great if you're defending yourself against a Timex, but being effective is key in the real world. I don't think anyone can put a number on how long it will take because situations vary with unlimited amounts. That said...i love quick draws and all that stuff.

The old west folks talk about drawing and shooting strait, not drawing the fastest...I can't think of the "gunslinger"s name, but it was time to throw down and his opponent fired twice before his first shot rang out, but his one was the only one that matter because it hit the target. There weren't many quickdraw gunfights in the old west, at least not nearly as many as you'd think from movies. Might have been Earp that I'm thinking of, but it could easily be someone else.
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