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Old January 28, 2006, 10:48 AM   #1
Radiki
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How fast to draw?

Obviously the answer is "as fast as possible". But how long does it take everyone to draw and fire? I don't think I am great, but I at 7 yards, from under a jacket I can get two shots on target in about 3-4 seconds. Drawing from under my shirt (as I normally carry at work) it is about 4-5. Any time I try to go faster (rather than pace my shots) I miss one or both of them. Any tips? (BTW: I am drawing from an IWB holster with my P99 or a paddle holster with my USP - both 9mm)
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Old January 28, 2006, 11:31 AM   #2
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I have always been a firm believer of " Make the first shot count you may never get another" so i'm more concerned with getting that first shot in the Ten Ring in a fair amout of time. I continually try to improve my time but when my accuracy starts to go i back off the speed. I never sacrifice accuracy for speed. Hell if speed is what one worried about buy a faster round to make up for your slower draw.
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Old January 28, 2006, 11:38 AM   #3
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I see what you are saying. I was always told that in a SD situation, if you are going to fire once, you might as well fire twice... Double tap.
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Old January 28, 2006, 11:46 AM   #4
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Old January 28, 2006, 12:08 PM   #5
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My problem is the ranges here do not allow you to carry your weapon in a holster much less draw and fire from it. Number one, they want all weapons with actions locked back and cylinders open to show they are empty when not on the firing line. Number two, they don't want to deal with idiots shooting themselves in the foot, shoting up the shooting platforms, or shooting anything but their targets.

The only place I was able to try this was in a private range in Alabama. The range I used to go to also allowed me to do it once when the range was empty. They let me go forward of the firing line and set up multiple targets (down range). That was pretty cool and a humbling experience but I wish I could practice regularly.

Do you guys think practicing with an airsoft pistol or a pellet gun might be good practice? I know Gamo makes an pellet gun that is very similar to a Glock 26. I know the weight and trigger will be off but the Gamo is a pretty good copy.
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Old January 28, 2006, 12:28 PM   #6
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Radiki

Quote:
Obviously the answer is "as fast as possible".
Not so...

With the average person's reaction time being about 2 seconds, you have at least 3/4's of a second to draw and fire before the BG even thinks of what to do.

3/4 second is a long time... use all of it!

The world's fastest Western fast-draw, pulls, cocks, shoots and re-holsters, in about 44 hundreths of a second.

3/4 (.75) second is a long time... use all of it!

Quote:
if you are going to fire once, you might as well fire twice...
If you're going to fire twice... you might as well fire thrice.

Two high in center mass, and one through the eyes.

BTW drawing is a series of steps... practice slowly and gradually increase your speed... making certain that you fire three rounds right where you want them EVERYTIME you draw.


stephen426

Practice at home with empty gun...
Then at the restrictive range bring your "hot" gun up from the hip position and fire three well-placed shots each time.

It's not the best but it's better than nothing...

Have fun!
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Old January 28, 2006, 12:52 PM   #7
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The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

IIRC most self defense gunfights rarely last longer than 3-4 shots and a dozen seconds. The guy who ends up in the W column is the guy who makes his shot(s) count first. In my mind it's all relative to distance and situation. Single BG at 20yds is going to take me more than just a second or two. No flash sight picture here. One BG at bad breath distance is going to be multiple shots shooting from the hip the instant I clear leather. It's gonna be over real quick or I'll be moving off the line and twards cover following up with point shooting and sighted fire.

It's all relative to the situation.
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Old January 28, 2006, 01:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
at bad breath distance is going to be multiple shots shooting from the hip
Making the first shot count...

at bad breath distance... I will put the first round into his mouth and then start spraying...

Whenever this subject comes up I can't help but remember the video of the two LEO's who stopped two militia-types and both sides fired multiple rounds, hitting nothing...

My intention is to place the first round, not "slowly" but DELIBERATELY, to ensure that the opponent doesn't get off a "lucky" shot that kills me or my partner!

A slow HIT is better than a fast MISS.

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Old January 28, 2006, 01:10 PM   #9
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time to draw and fire.........

ya know, I don't think a lot of folks really practice, and if they do, they don't time it. My best times for clearing and shooting is no better than what you are quoting. Gotta practice more.
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Old January 28, 2006, 01:12 PM   #10
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Old January 28, 2006, 01:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
" be slow and in a hurry"
Wyatt Earp
I like that.
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Old January 28, 2006, 05:03 PM   #12
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To give you some idea, I believe these are the times used at Front Sight for the skills test of their 4-day Defensive Handgun class. These are shot from concealment (either open-front or closed-front garment)

Description__________________Range_______Time (sec.)
Controlled Pair..........................3m................1.6
Controlled Pair..........................5m................1.8
Controlled Pair..........................7m................1.9

Needless to say, some of the advanced test times are faster.
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Old January 28, 2006, 05:33 PM   #13
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I carry SOB @ 5oclock, practiced quite a bit, and keep it fresh. I keep it around 1.?? seconds from moving my hand to a shot from retention.

From there.... double tap, spray, or aimed shots is a function of the situation. Practice all if you can. Depends on the distance and nature of threat. I generally train to fire untill slidelock or untill some obvious and unmistakable sign that the threat is gone. (IE recognizing the rag-doll-like drop of a CNS hit.)

I don't know about that "average persons reaction time" being 2 full seconds. In a fight when one throws a punch, it doesn't generally another take 2 seconds to realize it and block that punch. The bad guy is already prepared to deal with you when he attacks, his reaction times are as small as they get.

Defending yourself always puts you one step behind the curve. In that - YOU are the one who may take 2 full seconds to react to a nasty and fast hitting situation - from there you want to lose as little time as possible on the draw.

Don't practice presentation only for speed.
Learn the muscle memory to keep foul-ups to a minimum.
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Old January 28, 2006, 05:44 PM   #14
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Be careful with the "fast draw and shoot." Fast is good, until you shoot yourself in the leg and/or foot because you were...going too fast.

You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight -- or to actually hit a deer.
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Old January 28, 2006, 05:55 PM   #15
STEVE M
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In their duty holster instructions (yes I actually read them) Safariland says

to practice until you can draw and fire/hit in under 2sec. This is with a

mutliple retention duty holster. IIRC the gunsite 250 standard is a hit at 7

meters in 1.5 sec. from the holster.


Reaction times normally run around .1 to .2 sec. for the normal human. A

few can be less, some, more (drugs, alcohol, sleep deprivation ect. can add

to this).


Personally, if I can't draw in under 2 sec. with a carry method, then I

won't use it. With my primary carry method (both uniform and concealed) I

use the 1.5 sec. as standard. (Yes I use a shot timer to check these )

Watch some good shooters, these times are not fast. I have on tape a

guy drawing, firing hitting 5 targets in under 2 sec. and LOOSING the

shootoff at the Bianchi Cup.

You can never be 2 fast!!
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Old January 28, 2006, 07:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Not so...

With the average person's reaction time being about 2 seconds, you have at least 3/4's of a second to draw and fire before the BG even thinks of what to do.

3/4 second is a long time... use all of it!
Sure, go with what Pointer is saying, but you will be counting on the bad guy being on morphine or quaaludes if it takes his 2 seconds to form a reaction to your draw.

I am sure we have all seen the ATM videos where the two bad guys try to rob the good guy at the ATM. He turns to confront the bad guys, each with a drawn gun pointed at him and then realizing that he has about two seconds before the bad guys will react, he draws and fires on both, neither having even flinched because it takes about 2 seconds for bad guys to react.

Holy crap, Pointer, where did you come up with 2.0 seconds? You are off only by a factor of 10. It is 0.2 seconds, not 2.0
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Old January 28, 2006, 07:33 PM   #17
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I like to be able to drop my glass and empty my piece before the glass hits the floor. I can't hit anything but I sure as hell scare everyone.
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Old January 28, 2006, 08:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Holy crap, Pointer, where did you come up with 2.0 seconds? You are off only by a factor of 10. It is 0.2 seconds, not 2.0
I'm not talking about a BG who has already drawn down on you... Much less TWO BG's... Duh!

ALSO NOTE:

If the fastest WESTERN draw STARTS with the shooter standing at the ready... and it is .44 of a second... it stands to reason it might take longer if he ISN'T ready.

Don't just poke holes for the sake of poking holes... try a little consideration first.

Hell, any "County Mounty" or Highway Trooper can tell you that the AVERAGE reaction time is "ABOUT" 2.0 seconds.
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Last edited by Pointer; January 28, 2006 at 10:23 PM.
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Old January 28, 2006, 08:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
With the average person's reaction time being about 2 seconds, you have at least 3/4's of a second to draw and fire before the BG even thinks of what to do.
If the BG is standing in front of you with a knife or gun, you can draw and shoot before he can react to your action. That doesn't mean you won't get cut or shot in return. The problem comes in when you are on the other side of the equation - you have to react to an action - say someone charging you with a knife. Then the 2 second Boyd loop in 'on you'.

Quote:
Holy crap, Pointer, where did you come up with 2.0 seconds? You are off only by a factor of 10. It is 0.2 seconds, not 2.0
It is 2 seconds.
It comes from Col. John Boyd's OODA loop. Google it.
To clarify, this also doesn't refer to someone throwing a punch or other action where your reflexes would control your response. It includes the cognitive process.

Randy
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Old January 28, 2006, 08:25 PM   #20
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An old timer officer by the name of Bill Jordan used to hold a ping pong ball on the back of his hand, then draw his 19 smith so fast that the ball would fall into the holster after he pulled the gun.

No offense ment here but if you are having to draw in a gunfight you have probably lost allready. Watch every real police encounter and you will notice the the cop loses if he doesn't have his gun out when the trouble starts.

Drawing is good for getting the manual dexderity down and to get used to gun handleing but in those times you sense trouble you better have your gun ready. (geez I am a stick in the mud )

25
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Old January 28, 2006, 09:42 PM   #21
281 Quad Cam
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Quote:
If the fastest WESTERN draw STARTS with the shooter standing at the ready... and it is .44 of a second... it stands to reason it might take longer if he ISN'T ready.
A bad guy will always be ready... They are robbing, raping, kidnapping or otherwise attacking you. They are no longer part of the whole OODA loop. They are making binary decisions, no cognition required. They have decided you are their victim, a plan to attack, and begun to attack.

If another person is not assaulting or attacking you, you have no right to draw and fire, indeed you have no right to draw. But by the time you have been assaulted... The bad guy, as it were, is no longer relying on cognitive processes. Basically, if you are in mortal danger, the attacker isn't using complex cognitive processes.

You can play basketball or hockey quite quickly. He sees a flaw in the defensive layout, without skipping a beat, a binary decision is made to stay or go, and he is faking left and moving right, another man moves to block, he makes the binary decision to pass or stop, in about 1/5 of a second he is passing. YOU HOWEVER - are the guy on the sideline thinking of something else when the ball hits you in the head. From there it takes YOU 2 seconds to react and decide to play, return the ball, or be a jerk to them.

When the bad guy comes at you, hes already playing the game, hes made the cognitive decisions about the attack, where to come from, to subdue you or shoot you. By the time you're involved in the mess - hes into the game. He's making simple binary decisions about how to achieve pre-set goals! You were daydreaming about an ACOG when BAM, you become aware of a rotten situation, NOW YOU RUN THE OODA LOOP, not him.

You are behind the curve. You have to make the cognitive decisions to determine if you are under attack, how bad, if its real, how many attackers - than fight or flight, and the methods to do either.

Situational awareness is everything to cut down on the amount of time it takes you to react. Speed is the key.
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Old January 28, 2006, 09:54 PM   #22
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Might I suggest practice in techniques that will allow carrying the weapon at the ready while not openly displaying it? Those techniques allow rapid response without appearing to be the aggressor.

Jim
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Old January 28, 2006, 10:20 PM   #23
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Jim Keenan

+1


281 and 25

Makes good sense to me...

If I know I'm in potentially dangerous place or situation...
I already have my hand on gun or even have gun in hand.

One thing, though, I think if we were as practiced at drawing as a basketball player is on the "court"... we would react instinctively and the BG's wouldn't have a chance.

Randy

I agree and thank you for the "support".

And of course I think we all "could" be right if the circumstances and scenario fit the occassion...

I was thinking of that video of the two militia men pulling on the two LEO's and a whole lot of ammo being fired without anyone getting hit... and then the driver jumps back into his vehicle and drives off at high speed...

I still think the FIRST round needs to be "deliberately" placed.

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Old January 28, 2006, 11:06 PM   #24
281 Quad Cam
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Quote:
One thing, though, I think if we were as practiced at drawing as a basketball player is on the "court"... we would react instinctively and the BG's wouldn't have a chance.
That is the holy grail.... To be "playing all the time." Always aware of the situation, always ready for action. The greatest part of this concept - bad guys often dont attack or attempt to prey on those who are alert and ready. They realize that their prey is already "in the game" as it were. And so they also know that they don't have a time advantage there.

The bad guys seek those who are not "in the game." They wanna hit that guy sitting on the sideline talking to his girl at the game. They want to prey on the man who isn't aware of the situation - and thus they can get a time advantage on.

To put it in terms of the OODA concept. They want to prey on someone easy, who will have to run the whole OODA cycle before responding to their attack. That gives them the time advantage, and speed is everything.

If you're going to be in la-la land... You'd better be a quick draw. Otherwise you still need to be pretty quick!
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Old January 28, 2006, 11:57 PM   #25
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Quote:
The world's fastest Western fast-draw, pulls, cocks, shoots and re-holsters, in about 44 hundreths of a second.
Not quite.

The world's record is held by Bob Munden, who shoots as the factory rep for Browning. His time for the first shot is .02 seconds. That's two hundredths of a second!

An interesting bit of firearms trivia, and not so well known is that the second fastes shot was done by Sammy Davis Jr. He was clocked at .07 seconds.

And, as for the time a BG can get a shot off at you, it has been documented and proven that a person can get off a shot at you in .09 seconds. That's nine hundredths of a second--faster than most people can blink!
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