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Old September 5, 2006, 01:13 AM   #151
HUBEL458
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Early testing with 1887, got 600 gr over 1600 in short
barrel. Long barre would be 2000 fps more, which we plan on doing.Used our case cut back to 2.45 inches, same as crimped plastic case, so it will feed from mag. Ed
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Old September 5, 2006, 04:00 AM   #152
180pilot
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Practical use of 12ga. Rifle

My interest is loading some 730 gr.Dixie Slugs I have for a Rem. 870 pump for Alaska raft gun. Loaded to just 1200 fps. This takes only about 42-44 gr. of Blue Dot, in 20 inch barrel. And according to Dixie, equals the Paradox rifle loads of yesterday in Africa, which did the job on Elephants. But, the plastic roll crimped rounds just don't look like the brass ones I see here. I'm thinking about those Rocky Mountain 2 7/8" brass cases. Now, what would I use to crimp the Dixie slugs into those???? Will the freebore of the 3" chamber Hastings Barrel I have, work OK with shorter 2 7/8" shell? And, would the proposed Jacketed Hawk bullets work with the standard 12 ga. rifling?? As I remember, shotguns of this type are limited to about 10-11,000 psi? I'm thinking that 1000 gr. bullet might be a pressure problem, in the Remington pump. Oh, and what plastic wad cup makes good sabot for .620 Nitro Express bullets?

Last edited by 180pilot; September 5, 2006 at 05:08 AM.
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Old September 6, 2006, 12:45 AM   #153
HUBEL458
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The TC 12ga muzzle loading shotcups are what I used
for 600NE slugs. Beveled sides bullet base to set them into
cup ok. They aren't real tight fit, and accuracy won't
be the best.Using Rocky Mtn cases, that freebore won't matter.
If 2 7/8 cases feed from magazine your ok.
May have to cut it back as I think 3 inch chamber guns have
plastic cases 2 3/4 inches when crimped.As for crimping,
our cases have enough tension in the neck to make a
tight fit on slug.Then run mouth into die to close
the brass a little tighter. And I have the front corner of case rounded on the front edge to give
smooth feeding.

The 1000 gr slugs may not stabilize if twist is too slow. My savage is 1 to 20, and would work.Pressure would be a problem in load developement in guns of Rem,Mossberg,etc pump
action types.That is why 730gr Dixie is nice.Ed
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Old September 6, 2006, 03:15 AM   #154
180pilot
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Dixie slugs/brass cases

TC? is that Thompson Center, do you slit them?

Dave, at Rocky Mt. seems to be very concerned about my chamber measurement as to selling me brass, and wants me to send him a casting measurement of my Hastings chamber. I can't believe the length or diameter is that critical, with straight wall, rimmed low pressure. He also contends his brass does not take to crimping. When you say run into die, what die?? I would think regular shotgun dies would not press brass against bullet tight enough for the recoil they have to stand in the magazine tube of a pump, without actually crimping into one of the grooves on bullet. Wonder if a Mec sizer tool could squeeze em enough?? Dave believes putting the slug inside brass case with glued wad over it is the correct loading, but I think that squared off sharp brass wouldn't chamber as easy as the rounded lead. And I might as well save my money and just load in plastic if that is true. After all, part of this exercise is to have a round that looks like it's for a mean rifle :-) How are your loads for the Chinese 1885 replica holding up under recoil in it's tube with the Dixie Terminator slug? That's still a smooth bore isn't it? Was that 600gr. in the 1887 a saboted round or something else?

Last edited by 180pilot; September 6, 2006 at 02:36 PM.
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Old September 6, 2006, 12:20 PM   #155
180pilot
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RCBS coming out with 12ga. dies for rifle press

Just talked to RCBS and Magtech both said 12ga. dies for brass shells are on the way by fall. And these will put a roll crimp on shells. Will fit Rockchucker with 7/8-14 bushing removed. So, now I need a good sabot for a .620NE Hawk bullet.................Perhaps a regular 12 Ga. shot cup with an extra teflon wrap from BP .010, to make it tighter in bore?????
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Old September 6, 2006, 11:35 PM   #156
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180Pilot- Those shotcups are slit to start with.
Maybe Rocky Mtn wants to make sure that your chamber isn't short
as with brass it could raise pressures.If you have
a set of inside mikes you could also measure where the
forcing cone starts.I found an old set of 1.5 inch thread
big Hollywood 12ga dies.Mine has no trouble holding slugs
against recoil.It's smoothbore with cylinder bore.
The 600 gr is a hardened hollowbase Dixie slug.I plan on one
with a longer heavy rifled barrel, hate short barrels.
In the TC shotcup the 600NE slug perhaps could be paper
patched tighter.If we can find a supply of 50 cal sabots, like used in Federal Barnes saboted 12ga loads, we could
use the front half of surplus 50 cal borerider bullets,
shown in picture next to barnes saboted copper slug.
Third in picture is Asquare 600NE in sabot.Ed


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Old September 7, 2006, 12:00 AM   #157
180pilot
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Dixie Slugs/brass cases

I only have 50 Dixie 730gr. Terminators left, and James Gates told me he's not selling them any longer.. I'm thinking of machining an old Lee hand loader die to so the bullet can pass into the top passage and let the crimping ring swage the lip of a Magtech brass case into the grease groove as I squeeze it in a vise or drill press ram. But, then when these Dixies are gone?????? I have to come up with another hard lead bullet. Hows the workmanship on that Norinco 1887. It looks stronger then a modern pump for sure. I called Barnes about those Sabots, no luck they won't sell em.
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Old September 7, 2006, 12:49 AM   #158
Esquire M Busterbury
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I just had a crazy idea...Imagine a magazine of your stuff in a saiga 12GA. Might take a little 'customizing' but the end result would knock your socks off (along with your most of your innards).
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Old September 7, 2006, 12:01 PM   #159
180pilot
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cheaper 12 gage bullet for brass shells

Idea:

Cheap Lee foster slug mold 7/8 oz. ($18 with handles), machine off the inside form, so bullet is solid, and about 750 grs. then pour with harder linotype lead. With the .682 diameter, it's designed for a standard trap wad cup for the sabot. So, I don't know about how it will crimp in brass yet, as the Magtechs inside are about a 11ga wad size. I suppose I can just cut the wad cup off to hold bullet, and use 11 ga. Circle Fly nitro cards and wads. Then tight crimp against the plastic cup with bullet protruding.

Last edited by 180pilot; September 7, 2006 at 12:20 PM. Reason: change in information
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Old September 12, 2006, 07:42 PM   #160
HUBEL458
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Shot 12 double ought buckshot in 1887.
That's 624 grains worth. Used short
2.45 inch case that feeds from magazine.
Used fast ball powder, getting about
1500 fps. Further testing on 600 gr
hardened slug got 1700.That is in short
20 in barrel. Comparing this short case
with the 3.07 inch case I use in NEF there
is an inch difference in length of powder
column so it takes faster powder with
10k more pressure in 87 to get same velocities as in NEF. But the 1887 handles it fine.
It takes as much pressure as my Savage
in its present form.Ed
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Old September 13, 2006, 02:05 AM   #161
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HUBEL458, could you post some shot test mediums? I guess the penetration would be at least amazing!
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Old September 15, 2006, 10:50 PM   #162
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I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball and it looks good.
Have got loads up to 105 gr with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed
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Old September 18, 2006, 11:32 PM   #163
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Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps
with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7.
Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680
load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt
wads, and RE-7 load had same card and
a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense.
Base expansion ahead of thick base was
.002 to .003 and resized without huge effort.
The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers. By the way I put primers in with
bmg primer post. Work good. Now will cut back
some cases for the 87 levergun.About same
loads used in NEF minus wads should do.
Will get little less velocity in 20 in bbl.
But I will have loads figured out for
a bunch of guys here and in Australia.
I also feel now that have I found loads that
get velocity without a huge expansion, to
the turned cases that good low base plastic
will do the same velocity, in strong alloy
barreled guns. Ed
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Old September 20, 2006, 10:40 PM   #164
HUBEL458
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Good news-First tested 87 levergun.
Using Rocky Mtn cases cut back.Cut case
back to length that feeds from magazine,
2.45 in. That is about max length of any
loaded and crimped 2.75 case.Got 600gr to 1700
with 20 in barrel.120 gr of RE-7.No squib loads.
Cases eject good, expanded a little
ahead of base .003, resize ok.Now the second
good news. Seeing as how these non traditional
powders used in shotgun didn't expand the
turned cases a lot( in our cases made from
bmg brass it took over 10 loads to expand
bases enough to need sizing)............
I figured time to check plastic cases.
Plastic cases took the same load as turned
brass in 1887 and the NEF.120 gr RE-7 in
1887(It wouldn't hold anymore without
a lot of compression) and
140 gr in NEF. Tested Fed,Win,Rem,highbase,
and low base. So you guys out there
who want to get the power that NEF and
1887 are able to deliver use good plastic
cases as a way to get started with
600 gr slugs.You don't need heatreated
for those speeds just hard cast
from wheel wts.. Win AA 2 & 3/4 best for 1887.
It is lowbase and easiest to resize.
To get potential(extra 200 fps) it needs a long barrel.They made long barrels in original.
I used federal 3 inch case in Nef.By the way modern plastic cases have steel bases with
copper plating so they are strong. I tried
one of the fast shotgun powders, that
previously expanded the brass
turned case to much, in plastic cases in
NEF and at 50 gr case was sticking
and had expanded quite a bit, but same
case with 140gr RE-7 popped out easy,
and resized easy.
Never could find use for RE-7 till now.Ed
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Old September 23, 2006, 10:48 PM   #165
HUBEL458
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In testing plastic cases in NEF and 87 I get
good case life with RE-7 loads. In 87 a Rem case
fired 5 times and it looks good. In NEf a Federal case
fired 6 times and looks good. Of course you can fire them
once or twice and throw away at 3-5 cents each.
I got long heavy barrel ordered for 87 levergun,
and then we will be able to put zip to the slugs.Ed
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Old September 29, 2006, 10:07 PM   #166
HUBEL458
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I tried one more 1050gr slug in the Savage. Got 2600 fps
and put a slight crack in the stock.Repaired ok for my
lesser loads.Will whittle out a thumbhole stock
for it sometime from one of big blanks I have..Ed.
.
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Old September 30, 2006, 12:27 AM   #167
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I don't understand, are you using a stock Pac-Nor 12 gauge barrel? What modifications, if any, have you made to the made to the barrel? If I might ask, how much did the barrel cost you?
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Old September 30, 2006, 10:41 PM   #168
HUBEL458
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Cobray- The barrel on savage is a heavy rifled barrel
that was part of a bunch, for us guys building these.
I never asked about their standard 12ga barrel.
Don't know if they had a standard one. Ours
were 2.25 inch rifled blanks from alloy steel like used in
rifles.Them we shaped them to contour on lathe and
threaded them for whatever action used and
put our long case chamber in them.

In testing the 1887 levergun we found that we
won't use AA-1680 with plastic cases. Of my loads
use only RE-7 powder in plastic.Ed
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Old October 5, 2006, 10:32 PM   #169
HUBEL458
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I'm doing a long chamber in the NEF. Just lengthening
the present 3 inch chamber .The base size of
the regular chamber in NEF is max dimensions,
and in my Savage I have a smaller minimum size.
It wworks grear with long case. So for brass
use in the NEF I honed out a base die bigger to
match NEF size, then it won't over work brass
and it maybe only will need sizing once in every 20 shots, and with the proper fit resizing will be easier.And
my other base die does Savage.Same
top die will do both top halves. Ed
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Old October 6, 2006, 12:29 AM   #170
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Thanks, and good luck with the rest of the project!
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Old October 8, 2006, 01:40 AM   #171
HUBEL458
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Got the NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up
NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or
have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without
a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a
flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the
primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded.
Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and
work up if pressures allow.Ed.
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Old October 12, 2006, 12:02 AM   #172
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Good news I got the 1887's hammer beefed up so
it fires the bmg primers in our case.
We will be testing small primers, with starter powder
in plastic and Rocky Mtn cases using RE-12 and 15 powders.
I think they will do better than RE-7 and have
less case expansion.Ed
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Old October 13, 2006, 11:09 PM   #173
HUBEL458
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Testing the cases,plastic and brass with small
primers and starter. A big find.Can't do
this for reliable ignition if the cases
are ballon head, whether plastic or brass.The cases must have the area between side and
the pprimer at least .200 thick.One reason is
strength. And some plastic I have measured is
only about .060 thick there and the protrusion
in the center for primer is .140 above that
thickness.. So 10 gr of starter powder is
in a groove so to speak and not on top of primer!!! That isn't good. I cut the cases
off at the brass base, poured in 10 gr
of flake powder and saw how it laid
in the case. Nice thing is that a most brands of cases are thick enough, like Win AAs.
So far RE-15 and Blue Dot starter looks
very good, and easy on cases.Velocity as good as RE-7.Will keep testing and I ran out of
RE-12 and the shops have no more, So
it will be RE-15 which I think turning
out best, or RE-7 in smaller
amounts.Ed.
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Old October 16, 2006, 11:36 PM   #174
HUBEL458
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Got testing done with Rocky Mtn cases,
small primers and 10gr of Blue Dot starter
powder. The small primer and starter powder
take the place of a BMG primer,
that is in our cases cut back shorter
for use in NEF and 1887 levergun.
In NEF 3" Rocky Mtn brass starter powder
and 140 gr of RE-15.Space filled up by card wad and felt wads, amount depending on how you seat
the slug. About 1800 fps.
In the 87 case cut to 2.4" the
length that feeds from mag, 120 gr of RE-15,
starter powder, and one thin .045 card wad.
That's all it holds.Slug loaded flush.
A little over 1600. With long barrels
a couple hundred more for both guns.
Will have plastic RE- 15 results in
couple days.Ed.
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Old October 20, 2006, 12:43 AM   #175
HUBEL458
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Results of RE-15 testing in plastic cases.
600 gr hardened Dixie slug and 10gr
of Blue dot starter powder in both lengths.
In Nef, 3 inch case is about 2.6 crimped,
and 120 gr RE-15 max load. In 1887, 2.75 inch
cases are about 2.35 crimped, 110 gr RE-15
max load. In 2.75 case thats all it will
hold,with card wad, in longer make up space with wads.The reason I'm checking plastic is so many shotgun reloading guys want more power for big game, and they are set up to
load plastic. With starter powder- a caution.
You must put starter in keeping case level,and the powder put in on top, must be put in slow
so as not to push it away from primer.
Greg Sappington clued me in on another powder that may do the job without starter powder
and be slow enough to get velocities up
without to much pressure. It's IMR SR-4759.
Will have some in couple days.I made contact
to get some of these loads pressure tested,
to check my pressure calculations..Ed.
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