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Old November 9, 2009, 12:22 AM   #501
HUBEL458
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It is a shotgun caliber that is exempt from DD in the law-- Title 18 GCA, Section 921 -- It doesn't matter what crazy name you give it, like magnum, super express. 12Ga From Hell, super duper magnum, shotgun from purgatory, etc, as long as it shoots straight sided 12ga shotgun cases.

It doesn't matter what cases are made of or their length, as long as it fires shorter ones if you have a longer chamber. Like 3" in 3.5" chambers. like 2.75" in 3" chambers, like 3" in 3.85" chambers, etc. 12ga chamber lengths range from 1.5" to about 4 inches.

It doesn't matter the barrel length, smooth, rifled, polygonal barrel, paradox bore.

Now you can't take a 40mm cannon case and neck it to 12ga and have an exempt 12ga, as chamber wouldn't fire other straight sided 12ga cases.But such a case can get a sporting use exemption by asking ATF for one like many big bore rifle cases that have done that.And that is part of the same law.Ed
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Old November 12, 2009, 06:00 PM   #502
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Well, RE17 has been used in a load that killed a buck.

It was turbo1889 on castboollits forum. Used a 20ga with load of 100gr of RE17(full load), a 1 oz full bore slug and killed the buck at over 150 yards. My gun 12GA FH above that I want pass on to someone, will also fire shorter cases too.

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Old November 12, 2009, 06:02 PM   #503
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I'm really going to have to reserve my opinion here. It's nice to see someone with some skill at least in the production aspect.

Good luck.
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Old November 12, 2009, 09:00 PM   #504
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What are folks reserved about?

We show the law numbers.. That law is what allows shotgun makers to make 12 gauges with any length chamber that will sell, and rifled or smooth barrels, slugs, saboted slugs, slower than molasses or hopped up fast.

Any barrel length over 18", ported or muzzle brakes. And barrels shorter you pay a tax, if auto fire pay a tax, etc.

It is not me that has any production skills, it is Savage, NEF, Rossi, TC, Mossberg, Win, Rem,etc, and the barrel and parts makers with the skills.

We just put stuff together which is also legal to do. Here it is not illegal to change a barrel or a stock or a scope, etc, for a guy working on his own stuff, like it is in some other countries,where you have to get a permit and bribe the gov(called fees) to even put a different finish on your stock or add a recoil pad...Sigh..

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Old November 12, 2009, 10:02 PM   #505
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Any time I see the envelope pushed I wait for someone to push back - and rarely do I have to wait long (unfortunately). I also have to wonder if the law recognizes 10, 8 or even 4 gauge (2 old commercial hunting rounds, now obsolete). If so... could you do the same thing with them?

Not a recommendation - just a thought. At some point you've got a cannon on your hands.
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Old November 12, 2009, 10:38 PM   #506
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The law recognizes any shotgun caliber as exempt.

We have folks building 4bore doubles for 50 grand each, we have folks building 2bores. NEF sells thousands of 10ga, Parker has 8ga doubles. Some mfg 8ga have 3.3" chambers, some have 4.3" chambers. I have an 8ga FH as I call it. I'm doing a 4ga falling block.

We have companies making brass cases for various bores so that you can use full length of the chamber for more power. Or you lengthen chambers with manufacturers reamers. We have companies that have lengthened various shotgun gauges and developed loads and cases for them. And all without being restricted as DDs.

All these companies doing these things wouldn't do it, if illegal. The folks administering the law goes by what various gauges were around before the law was enacted that exempted them. Please get a COTW book and look at the shotgun gauge listings and listings have been in all editions from way back before the law and DD term was even thought of. Now for hunting various game there may be restriction on gauge size in the US and states, but that has nothing to do with ownership, blowing up water jugs, making holes in targets that are easy to see at 100yds, breaking collar bones, inducing whiplash, etc.

You know 600 NE,577Ne,700NE,585Nyati 70-150WIN are all exempt from DD. Many others also that have been granted sporting use exemption. I have cases of mine exempt. SSK has some, the 550 guys got 4, AHR has 3, and dozens of other calibers. When you get exemption it is stated that it is for sporting firearms, in the letter, not considered over 50 weapon which makes it a DD if used as autofire,of military design weapon, etc..

Shotgun calibers and those given exemptions are sporting in sporting guns, all others are weapons. Designating military or police use.

Ed
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Old November 21, 2009, 03:40 AM   #507
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Matthew in Oregon got the 12GA FH Savage.
He is now in the recoil club.

Here is picture of the 12ga belted cases I made to test a few loads in.

I made it from 55cal belted Boys case. I reduced belt diameter a little and left the base the same, which is 12ga size.In picture first is 55cal, second expanded to .620", third expanded to .660"(16ga), then two 12 ga ones.

Next is our 12GA FH, and then a 12ga 3.5" plastic case.A little work in long 12ga FH chamber with a tool for belt step and it chambers.

Ed

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Old November 25, 2009, 12:46 AM   #508
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Here is a picture of US-S brass slug after going through 3 foot of wood slabs in a bundle. It has shed its plastic base and it went through straight without tumbling. This one is 570 gr fired at 2200 in RMC case, from NEF.

Also in picture is one with white sabot petals off, as it would be in flight, before hitting target.

Ed

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Old December 1, 2009, 02:28 AM   #509
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4bore work. Working on design of firing pin,
and waiting for parts now. Problem is getting
real small parts without CNC for bushed
firing pin with rebound spring. But it takes
time.

We will have swaged lead slugs
in a little while as my barrel is smooth. They
will be 1600gr hollowbase, when done,
a hundred of them at least.
Got wads and cards, shown in the picture with 4bore
cases and slugs. And my 2bore case for comparison
Also 12ga wads for comparison..Ed

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Old December 8, 2009, 05:09 AM   #510
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Our cartridge work and experimenting got a nice
write up in # 470 Nov/Dec International Ammunition
Journal. Page 10-11 by Zach Weighman, a
cartridge collector and gun nut friend.

Got a guy just figured out BMG case rim, and for a rim
puts on 12ga high base cup from a plastic case. He turns
base/rim of bmg case about .008" and use JB Kwik to hold
it on. Pushes it on with press. He removes base cup with
heat gun from plastic cases,

He is using RE17, so shotgun primers will work, and he
puts bushing in case for primer. Has bushing reamed so
the primer pocket protrusion on the base cup goes up inside
tight, as he pushes on the base cup. It'll fire ok and to size it
do like I do, I push case into open top die, and push it
back out from the top with a rod and hammer. That
way the rim don't get bent up. He says it saves a lot of
time not having to make rim pieces.

We will have more info and pictures next few weeks.Ed
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Old December 15, 2009, 10:42 PM   #511
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Here is a picture of a BPI sabot with a BPI Flexseal I
use on to it in place of the original cushion seal.
I also cut shallow slots in the outside at the bottom
of the petals. Sabot opens much quicker and seems
along with BPGS seals under it to work ok without
damage, giving high velocities. In pic on left is regular
BPI sabot, behind is one I put a cushion on from a
Brenekke KO slug, and in front the one with Flexseal on.
The slug in it is one a guy casts at 440 gr and .504"
diameter, and works ok.

New info on my 499HE, from now on we will make cases
out of 450 #2 brass, as Jamisons has 3-4000 cases,
and it seems no one has the 475 #2 we used first.
Only slight case dimension change is the base .012"
smaller, all else is the same. I'm getting reamers redone
and will be able to use in couple weeks. Case will still have
plenty of taper to extract easy in singles, doubles,
falling blocks.etc.

And speaking of falling blocks I found one, and put my 585HE
in it, and it is big enough and has enough clearance to be used
for a 577NE, 600NE, long 20ga, my long 16ga FH,
the 700H, the 700HE. Cost no more than Ruger. Will have pics
and info soon. Ed

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Old December 21, 2009, 12:12 AM   #512
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Here is picture, Falling Block I found that I put
my 585HE in. It didn't need any work on the
feed trough to feed. 585 case shown in it.
In fact the trough is big enough
and the action big enough for 600NE, 3.5" 20ga
brass, 3.5" 16ga FH brass, my 700 HE long case.
I reworked a NEF stock to it, as I'm not
a stockmaker.Nice action.2nd picture is
of the 16GA FH in the feed trough.Ed



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Old December 26, 2009, 11:56 PM   #513
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Here is picture of the FBW falling block with my
700HE long case in it.This falling block is 1.5"
wide, with a 1.125" wide breach block.
The sides are .187" thick next to breach block.
This compares to about .165" say for a Browning
B-87, Win copy. The feed trough would work with
12ga size rim if some work was done on the top
of the hammer. This has a barrel thread length of
1.005", thread diameter of 1.125" for good
strength. Ed

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Old January 4, 2010, 10:56 PM   #514
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Here is picture of the falling block with a
600NE in the feed trough. Work great
chambered as a 3.5" 20 gauge, for
20 gauge 3.5" brass and plastic cases also.

Second picture is a 12GA FH case we made by
epoxying on a 12 ga base cup onto a bmg brass
case. Turned brass down .010" and pressed on base
with epoxy in it and when set base is on good.Ed



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Old January 7, 2010, 02:03 AM   #515
HUBEL458
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Another way that I put a 12ga rim on
bmg case is to use the new Magtech brass
12ga cases made by CBC in Brazil.
BPI and others sell them for less than
a buck each. Being so short they aren't
in the 12ga FH category of generating power.
But you cut them off a quarter inch long, and
turn a BMG rim down to .715 diameter, push on the
Magtech base, with JB weld in the Magteck
base, and set up a squeeze collet to
crimp the Magtech base sides into the BMG
extractor groove. Crimp it in hard and tight.
And it uses large rifle primers.Fed Mag 215 best.
Other bmg case work needed is to put a chamfer
on the bmg primer pocket and drill out the
bmg primer pocket straight so that there is no
block to the primer gases coming out through the
Magtech flash hole. Chamfer back of rim a little.
These will handle
20,000 psi loads.Ed
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Old January 7, 2010, 06:05 PM   #516
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WOW how accurate can you shoot it??????????
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Old January 8, 2010, 01:15 AM   #517
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There is guy who has killed a deer with our
slow powder loads at 230 yds with 20 ga.

My 585 does 1.5" group at 50 yds, peep sights
12ga 3.5" in NEf can do 2.5" at 50 yds, peep sights.Ed
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Old January 10, 2010, 07:08 AM   #518
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BIG MAC

Actually a shotgun is smooth bore, but it could be considered a sporting gun, like the .510 gibbs or the .700 nitro express or the .950 JDJ etc.
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Old January 13, 2010, 01:18 AM   #519
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Here is picture of Brett Ittel's Savage 210 he has setup.
It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27" Pacnor barrel,
that he put in place of original. He also put in a Knoxx
spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow
Savage plastic stock. He replace the plastic parts of the
absorber with aluminum parts. It is shown without the boot
so you can see how it is in the butt.He also has an oversize
pad on it. He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and
it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get
a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot over 3000 fps. He gets this speed
with BPI and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use
3.5" RMC cases and our BMG based case, cut to 3.5"...Ed

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Old January 20, 2010, 12:10 AM   #520
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Some 8ga work.I found a way and made a die that
swages the 8ga kiln cases down to regular 8ga size.
It swages the belt down and a turning tool I made
removes the sharp edge on the belt after swaging,
to make a smooth transition to the right size.
It does it 4 times faster than previous process.
My chamber on the NEF is set up so regular sizes fit
and loaded kiln cases with the belt step won't go in.
It works with both the REM 8ga cases from BPI and the
WIN 8ga cases from Precision Reloading, and the
WIN cases are only 44 bucks a hundred, primed.
The WIN cases have the same extra powerful primer
just like the REM cases. The REM cases are black
and the WIN cases a see through plastic. Both same
thick sides.Anyone needing cases worked over
contact me... Ed

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Old January 20, 2010, 08:29 AM   #521
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this is ridiculous, pure madness and insanity, and I LOVE IT!!!

I haven't read this whole thread, so for a quick rundown, how much will a rifle set up to accept this cost?
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Old January 22, 2010, 11:27 PM   #522
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NEF 12ga Ultra $275. It already has aheavy barrel.
Deepen chamber $50. 3.5" plastic cases new
with primers 20 cents ea . Later on get 3.5" RMC brass 10 bucks each.
Sabot or slug of your choice. Powder, roll crimper, reload stuff.
Add a thick 35 buck pad to gun add weight in the butt.
You want bolt action you get a Savage for twice as much
and add a $300 heavy barrel, weight, thick pad.
For a pump gun the new thick barreled
Remington with 25.5" thick barrel, about 550 bucks.Redo
it for 3.5" plastic cases. Weight, thick pad.

A switch barrel auto we are testing 3.5" 12ga
smoothbore USS-S slugs, with hopped up loads.
About as accurate as the other guns here. Also
I'm getting the auto set up in my 585 HE long
case.585 HE long case shown in the port.
Switching barrels only takes minutes. This 12ga
barrel about as heavy as the 210 Savage barrel.
It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader I've reworked
the stroke and have a barrel extension coming to add
585 28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad.
We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of
9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed

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Old January 31, 2010, 12:26 AM   #523
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Guys have asked about a 10ga FH, and it is just
getting stuff to do cases with reasonable time and cost.
So a breakthrough with a 10ga FH, is putting 10 gauge
basecups from plastic cases onto 50cal Russian brass to
make a 4.05" long 10ga. I expand case using my shellholder
on original rim, put in bushing for shotgun primer, which
fires off RE17, the turn case and rim a little, and slip
on basecup with epoxy inside. Then take a 200 dollar heavy
barrel NEF 10ga, and deepen chamber like mine is.
Here is picture with one beside a 12ga FH. The 12ga FH holds
max load of about 330 gr ball powder below a slug,
and the 10ga FH holds 420gr. I'm getting things set
to get a bunch of cases to do this. Progress.
Now anyone wanting any of my cases for their collection
I have a package of them all. Contact me.. ...Ed

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Old February 6, 2010, 04:00 AM   #524
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Here is a neat idea for a 5 shot 12ga,
a 12ga revolver. Nice looking gun.
Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga
NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can
get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can
make tooling and charge less than
300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring.
Let me know and we'll get arrangements made
if enough are interested.I have two now.ED

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Old February 11, 2010, 11:34 PM   #525
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The long brass 10GA FH case shown above has a Lyman
slug in a thickwall 10ga steel shotcup that BPI sells.
That's a 12ga 525gr Lyman.Makes nice lighter slug for 10ga.
The slug has bottom chamfered to set in cup tight
and a little epoxy makes it one piece that makes it a discarding
sabot style like a SPW. That makes it front heavy so that it
is as accurate as Brenekke KOs in smoothbore. I'm
also working with a guys to cast long hollowbase 10ga slugs
like the ones Federal loads. We are figuring out molds now,
will probably make slugs about 850gr. Here is picture of
my 10GA FH NEF with long brass case started in the chamber.
Chamber is set for that 4.050" brass case and will shoot 3.5"
plastic cases also. I am going to put on a thumbhole Survivor
stock like I have on NEF 8ga we did.Ed

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