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Old April 18, 2009, 04:21 PM   #451
HUBEL458
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Yes that is the best gun of all everyone has
done so far in 12GA FH. I really like its looks.Ed
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Old April 18, 2009, 06:19 PM   #452
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i agree. although everything else looks nice too
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Old April 20, 2009, 03:01 AM   #453
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Some more BPI seal and sabot testing.
First of all both Bret and I have heavy tight fit barrels
and his barrel on the Savage is faster twist so it took
him 50 gr of Longshot to get what BPI got with
looser barrels and slow twist at 46 gr of Longshot.
For non heavy barreled guns only go to 46 gr.
I did a bunch of tests in my NEF long barrel with long
chamber. My store didn't have any 500gr .500" XTP slugs
so I used some 420gr .512" dia lead Great plains in the
BPI sabot. Using 2 BPGS powder seals, a BPI Flexseal, a
cork wad in 3.5" new Federal cases, roll crimped, I got
2800 fps with 420gr slug. I tried 4 other powder seals,
2 cards, a Remington, a Win, and a odd one, all with the
Flexseal and lost velocity. I fixed up my crimper so it would
roll the plastic down and over inside edge of sabot, as before
it would turn plastiC in too sharp and get some of the crimp
outside the sabot top. If sabot was too low so that the plastic
crimp went clear down to the slug I got high pressure signs.
I also did same loads in used 3.5" REM cases ok.
Now, I thought I should have more velocity, so I swaged the
.512" 420GR slug down to .500" like they say the sabot is for,
AND I GOT OVER A 120 FPS MORE. Everytime. I also used
Alliant Steel powder and got all the same results, using
60gr. It is easier on cases. I also substituted the doubled up
BPGS powder seals and the Flexseal with 520gr Lyman in
place of the seal and cushion on the WW12 wadcup the Lyman
fits in, with some RL-17 loads, of 150gr, and got over 200fps more
that the original WW12 wadcup gave with the Lyman.

Velocity secret is to have the perfect sealing setup with
slug/sabot combo that is NOT too tight. Only tight enough
to get accuracy. The cork seems to protect the sabot
base ok on the shotgun powder loads, and not needed
on the RL-17 loads, which is a easier accelerating powder
and without cork helps make room for the RE-17. I think I
will get increases in the brass RMC cases, with RE-17, with
the BPGS doubled and a Flexseal in place of cards and wads.
We will know soon.Ed
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Old April 24, 2009, 04:08 PM   #454
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Hi all,

Was just wondering Ed if you or your fellow enthusiasts had ever looked at the CAWS that H&K and Winchester teamed up to produce for the US military in the early 80's? It was a bullpup design semiauto shotgun that fired special high pressure brass shells with a max of 25000 psi. This link is the only one I've found with any specs. http://cartridgecollectors.org/cmo/cmo06june.htm
Just thought that if you contacted said companies and offered to do a little free R&D work for them (especially with this economic downturn) that they would maybe provide some weapons and shells to play with. Would love to see a bullpup semiauto 12GA from hell. Keep up the good work.
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Old April 25, 2009, 11:00 PM   #455
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Thanks for info We'll check it out.
Here is picture of the breach of 8ga FH NEF with
case in it, to show that the gun is strong enough
for 8ga. I was a 10ga NEF. Has 29" effective barrel
length, and the internal expansion step at muzzle
for the ports that stops muzzle climb and reduces
recoil. Which along with thick pad and thumbhole
stock makes for easy shooting.Ed

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Old April 28, 2009, 07:26 AM   #456
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with out re-reading all of this thread... have you ever expirimented with 577 Snider cases ???

my buddy ( a local builder & retired tool & die guy ) & I were sitting around chatting one day, & the subject came up about how to best anneal aluminum, at which time he produced a handful ( appearently he has a couple hundred ) fired aluminum cases, which were mortor spotter rounds ??? or some such, which used a shotgun primer, & happened to be about the right size to fit 58 caliber mini balls... he was thinking the heads would seperate if the aluminum cases were not annealed... as the conversation progressed, we turned to brass 28 or 24 ga shot shells, but the non solid head design would really limit the performance of the resulting cartridge... next came the 577 Snider, which is a fairly easy to get case... I have 4 of them coming to look at...

my thoughts were it would be really cool if a guy could use a rifled 58 caliber muzzleloader barrel, & chamber a bolt action 20 gauge or similar for 28 gauge that the Snider case could be formed to fit th chamber, you could call those reformed cases 28ga slugs, & possibly have a bolt action big bore deer hunting "rifle" legal to use in shotgun zone ???

thoughts ???
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Old April 29, 2009, 09:26 PM   #457
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The Snider and other 577 calibers are same as 24 gauge. I made
a 28ga FH with a long 3.25" brass case that I had RMC make
I used a 550 cal rifled barrel that was also made for the 550
Magnum. Our chamber/barrels fires factory 28ga also.
If you'd want a 24ga/58cal with you could also use
577NE brass which is 3" long and built heavy.And get a 58cal
barrel. And you could fire any 24ga regular shells also.
And stamp the barrel 24ga, just as we stamped our barrel 28ga.
And the fact that you could fire regular 24ga it is legal 24ga.
Checked on the CAWS info.
Here is pic of Case for the CAWS weapon system.
Case is belted, and it and the gun operated at 25,000 psi.
Its bore size is between 12 and 10 ga size, but the od of
the drawn case would let it start in 12ga chambers, so
they added belt so it couldn't go all the way in
to regular shotguns. Notice the thick sides and corner
near the base.Heavy enough for 25,000 psi. They loaded
it with big buckshot and test other projectiles also.
They had a plastic card over shot and filler and rolled
over brass mouth for crimp. Ed

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Old May 2, 2009, 11:19 PM   #458
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Here is picture of a NEF breach barrel section that I threaded
monoblock style for a .585" cal barrel, to make a NEF 585HE.
It goes on a SB2 10-12ga alloy, super strong frame. Its
OD is 1.210" and the barrel that screws into it will be tapered
to match contour and it will be 1.00" at muzzle, at 32" long.
I know these are strong enough as my 8GA FH testing shows..
Later will do couple more with heavy barrels for 28GA FH, etc,
as all the break action 28 gauges I've looked at have too
thin of muzzles for our slower, powder loads.I'll have 3 of these
that fit one SB2 frame I have here.This makes switch barrels
big power fun.Ed.

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Old May 4, 2009, 10:25 AM   #459
Magnum Wheel Man
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HUBEL... can I pick your brain a bit for my 577 project ???

right now we are leaning towards a double rifle, using a strong 12 ga side by side shotgun & barrel liners in 577 by using 3 equispaced set screws in each shotgun barrel muzzle, the bore end of the liner could be adjusted within the shotgun tube, then the screws could be either trimmed to length, or a pourable epoxy could be added between the barrel & liner, after the barrels were properly regulated, & the screws removed... if the gaps were small enough the muzzle could be soldered as well ???

I have already gotten some 557 cases, & have dies ordered...

one thing my local builder is concerned with is finding a strong enough action ( I figure you are the guy to ask ) an exposed hammer would be a nice feature, but my buddy is concerned that the 577 even in black powder loads is almost double the pressure of a 12 ga, so finding a strong enough action would be important... finding one that was cheap enough to use, or commonly available is equally important... any suggestions ???
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Old May 7, 2009, 10:55 PM   #460
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You want to get a Zabala 10 ga just like Rob is using
in the pics above. You get the one with Greener crossbolt.
With 10ga you can make the 577 insert with thicker sidewalls.
It will take any load that the 577 cases can hold.

I fired mono-blocked NEF this week with a 585HE 32"
barrel and the gun is weighted to 15 lbs. Thick pad.
I have cone breech as this case is belted with thick base.
I'll have a pic of gun later. Gun is still tight after testing.
I can take out cases with my fingers as they don't stick.
First 650gr, with no extractor. The HBMG, WC-860,AA8700,
Retumbo, Magpro, RE25, W-780 loads come out of the chamber,
with my fingers.If I tip gun up they fall out.
Top speed with RE25 and W-780 is over 2400. Now I knew what
to load them at because I have tested this case in 3 other guns.
I have all the different powders and bullets tested.
This is example of a case extracting easy,
due to proper side taper that my 585 has....Ed
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Old May 10, 2009, 10:13 PM   #461
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Here is a picture of the Zabala that was a 10ga double,
that Rob has monoblocked in heavy rifled barrels, showing
the quarter sight rib he has made, fitted to the gun.
He has it chambered for 12GA FH long case.
Really beautiful work and gun.Ed

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Old May 16, 2009, 02:42 AM   #462
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I found odd steel block with a square cornered
1.0" by 1.5" hole through it. It solves a big
machining problem for me in doing a 4bore.
And I happen to have some 1" by 1.5" steel.
The rest of machining I can do, and I have
the levers, hammer, trigger, etc. But the parts
and layout are not going to copy the Wickcliff.
To many problems with all the parts riding on the
breachblock and the crowded stubby extractor.
Will be my own design with hammer and
trigger behind breachblock. An extractor similiar
to Ruger and its shape a cross between WIN 1885
and a Farquarson.In pic you can see drawn outline
on the block of the shape it will have.ED

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Old May 16, 2009, 01:23 PM   #463
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12 guage/ 50 Browning elephant gun?

282 lb feet of momentum.

If that can't knock a person sized object a few feet than I don't know what would.

Taylor KO factor= 211
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Old May 21, 2009, 11:19 PM   #464
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Here is the finished NEF mono-blocked gun with
the 585 barrel, 32" long, 1 to 22 twist.
Chambered for my 585HE belted case.
I used a SB2 10ga action which is same as the 12ga
Ultra actions.I cut it off to make a 4" long monoblock.
and threaded it 1 inch by 14tpi. I'm going to do extra
ones 28GA FH,others.. My 585 is best 585,as the info will
show. I have a 45-70 extractor coming to rework for it.
I am firing first bunchs of test loads without
an extractor, and loads with 650 gr bullets at 2450 and
750 gr bullets at 2250 didn't need the extractor. They
come out with my fingers. Over 8000 ft lbs.I got thumbhole
stock now, because those with higher velocities of 2-400fps more,
were harder to hold on to grip. Trigger guard banged the fingers.
And higher velocity cases come out with a pry from my thumbnail.
Here is picture of rear of gun and the fixins(bullets/cases).
You see a fired case in the chamber, and I have cone breach
setup so that case is in same relationship to chamber as it
is in my three 585HE bolt guns. And is why I can get cases
out with my fingers.OR tip gun up. The hairier loads of
650 at 2650, 750 at 2450 is 10,000 ft lbs. Ed

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Old May 25, 2009, 11:21 PM   #465
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Here's pic of my to be 4bore falling block with
the block to be the breech setting in the hole.
Breach needs trough on the top yet, but now
it is done for exact width and height and the
bottom recess and link hookup is done, since
the picture was taken..Ed

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Old May 26, 2009, 09:09 AM   #466
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Did anyone see the Cartridges that John Connor used in Terminator Salvation on the Arnold terminator? He was using a prop modified tear gas launcher made elephant cannon. But the cartridges he had for it were straight cased and every bit as big as a .50 browning.

Looked very much like this 12 guage rifle cartridge.
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Old June 2, 2009, 12:20 AM   #467
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The falling block is coming along. I'm not copying my
first models that were a scale up of the Wickcliff.
Complete new design, mainly in shape and type of stock
used, the bridge and reciever setup, and trigger/hammer
behind the block. Block will have no curved outside
shapes, front to back. Pics soon with the stock......

Used wadcutter style 8ga slug made by cutting off part
of a long nosed one in picture, in my 8ga with RE-17
powder.. Over 2300 fps. Slug is a zinc slug from kiln
gun factory load. With nose cut back and hollow I put
in the base it was 800 gr. It had a .20" wadcutter nose
on it.Good tribute to Elmer. The other ones in picture,
just with nose cut off and solid base and is 870 gr.Ed

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Old June 6, 2009, 01:22 AM   #468
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All purpose smooth bore twelve gauge shotgun concept

What does more money bye you during any given day? In a word, OPTIONS. The person with ten dollars in there pocket is limited to certain options by that amount of money to what they can bye for lunch that day. Equally the person with one hundred dollars in there pocket has many more options available to them for lunch that day. The more options you have equal a better potential quality of life. Seems like common sense to me.

So using this example let us look at the twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun. This weapon is considered by many to be one of the most versatile weapons in the world. So why is it that it’s full potential of options is not being used? First let us identify some of the options that this weapon brings to the table. The twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun firing shells loaded with small shot pellets to large buck shot pellets and even larger slugs has been putting meat on the menu for a long time. The many different sizes of projectiles allow the weapon to take small game such as birds all the way up to larger game like bears. The weapon has also been defending hearth and home for just as long and is a favorite weapon of many if not all police and military forces. The only option not covered by the smooth bore twelve gauge shotgun is the niche presently held by the high powered rifle. In particular the rifle projectile’s high velocity, long range, and accuracy. I just believe that with today’s technology the twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun should be able to come very close to high powered rifle performance. Even at long ranges.

That being said I would like to draw your attention to Ed Hubel and his fellow enthusiasts at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=197214 these folks have been doing some very interesting experimenting with heavy barrel twelve gauge and other big bore guns, both smooth bore and rifled barrels. Recently Ed and company achieved these results.

“One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with
500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed
on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could
get them there with my loads using much larger amounts
of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in
his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel
he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern
guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two
BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then
a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot.

Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper.
This load is at mag shotgun pressures by case expansion
measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi.
He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had
200 fps less.He had tried other combinations seals/wads
and with same amount of powder and got lower yet.
He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked
the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases
stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same
seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long
barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real
good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying
like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big
game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to
BPI"s supply of the right components it has happened. Ed”

Seems to me we have the velocity and with the correct type of projectile we could have the range and accuracy. Granted the prevailing wisdom states that a twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun can not achieve results like that of a high powered rifle. My thought was that barrowing the idea of fin stabilization from BPI’s AQ slugs, anti tank rounds used the world over, and even the ancient technology of the arrow (Hence ensuring that even the anti gun nut lawyers could see that the precedent has been set.) that someone should take the Barnes Triple-Shock X-Bullets 50 BMG (510 Diameter) 647 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail projectile drill out the back of said projectile there by reducing its wait to 500 grains (With fins included) and insert fins like the AQ slugs but maybe with the fins more in line with the projectiles boat tail shape and then placing the projectile into an appropriately sized twelve gauge sabot then placing said sabot into a brass shotgun shell of 3.5 to 4.0 inches long that maybe that would be a step towards knocking the high powered rifle off its pedestal. At the very least giving the twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun more range and accuracy and thus adding one more option to this versatile weapon.

I would think that the Barnes Triple-Shock X-Bullets 50 BMG (510 Diameter) 647 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail projectile with the above modifications and moving at 3000 fps or faster would do a great job on whitetail deer on up to possibly moose sized game.

After thought – Could the breach end of a sabot be designed to achieve rifle like spin while being thrust down a smooth bore barrel thereby imparting said spin to the projectile?

Disclaimer – I am in no way an engineer or a gunsmith. The ideas expressed herein are just conceptual. Any person or persons that make use of these ideas do so at there own risk. I make no legal claims to these ideas and give full credit to Ed Hubel and all persons involved on “thefiringline” forum.
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Old June 6, 2009, 09:06 PM   #469
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Another couple months maybe 4 bore/ga will fire.Just have a
chunk of shaft on front to simulate barrel to
get a stock fit. Got to profile barrel, thread barrel,
fit in hammer,trigger, couple bottom bolts into action,
design and mount extractor.. some springs, firing pin, etc.
May change/lengthen fulcrum on lever so it doesn't have to
move so far. Lever is held closed by little feramic magnet
in grip. Checking on different shapes for lever. When breach is
lowered the lever stays open due to weight of breach
block. Block moves smooth, no rattling around.
Guys-,I need some Vulcan 50cal V-50 thumbhole laminated stocks.
If there are any used extra ones around let me know.
This way of doing a FB in one piece thumbhole stock will work
for 12GA FH with an action about a 1/4" narrower.ED



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Old June 11, 2009, 10:20 PM   #470
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Answer for above post-Most dicarding sabots are used in
rifled barrels and they impart spin to the bullets for
stable flight. The boat tail bullets will work also if they fit in
sabot tight.Most locked on saboted slugs wil lwork in rifled and smooth. They work in smooth due to being very front end heavy like old foster
slugs. If they leavr barrel pointed straight they fly straight.

Here is picture of 4bore/ga action with lever open and
breach down.You see bottom of breach block.The action
and barrel will be held in stock with 2 bolts into bottom
of action one bolt in barrel ahead of action and a recoil
barrel ring in front end of stock. Didn't have to add
any recoil lugs, as the wide back of the action is
the recoil lug. This is now called the Hubel Falling
Block Action. Second picture is of the 4bore cases
and 2000gr slugs, with 20mm case I make 4bore/ga cases
from and the 30-06 for comparison.Ed



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Old June 16, 2009, 11:39 PM   #471
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Here is picture of the 12ga wad column using two
BPI BPGS seals, Flexseal,cork, and sabot. Bret in
MN has, in a long heavy rifled barreled Savage
like mine, gotten 28-3000 fps with a 500 gr XTP bullet
in the sabot with a 3.5" plastic case. And it extracts
ok with the Savage bolt action extractor.
He is using slow shotgun powder, Alliant Steel.I can't
get that high in my NEF 12GA FH and make the
extractor work with the Alliant Steel powder loads.
The NEF handles pressures fine, just doesn't extract
like a bolt action Savage 210. Using RE17 without cork,
I get 28-2900, with max of much slower RE17 with 420gr
slug in the sabot.The case shown was fired with the
RE17 load like that....Ed

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Old June 22, 2009, 12:21 PM   #472
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If I went out and bought a NEF Ultra Slug Hunter Delux, what would be my next steps towards the heavier 12 ga 3 1/2 inch plastic shell loads? This gun would be strictly for giggles and shoulder injuries. Do you have compiled recommended loads? Its hard to search for more information becuase google just brings up 500 versions of this same thread from all the different sites.
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Old June 24, 2009, 11:18 PM   #473
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Ream out chamber for 3.5" case. Add weight to the butt,
get a thick pad.- Using RE-17 powder, 150 gr with Lyman slug
525gr in wadcup, 145gr with 540 gr Hammerhead slug, 140gr
with 600gr Dixie slug,155 gr with BPI sabot w/420 slug.
Any space is taken up by wads. I like RE-17 best now.

Here is picture of NEF I've set up with my
700H 3.25" belted case to show the versatility
of NEFs and my 700. The 700 cal barrel monoblocked
like I did the 585HE. I put monblocked barrel on
the same SB2 frame that I have my 12GA FH on as
it has the beefed up firing pin for big primers
use in our 12GA FH case and in my 700H case.

Other projects coming.I found a heavy 16ga barrel
to monoblock in one to test the 16GA FH cartridge
I made. It is the 3.5" brass case mentioned
earlier in the thread.

Also a bunch of us are going to take 500 S&W
NEFs and put my 499 HE case in them, with just a
chamber job. It is a case that will get the zip
in 500gr slugs. NEFs are great guns to experiment
with and along with reasonable costs, we don't
have to worry about case length. Ed

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Old June 27, 2009, 11:03 PM   #474
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Here is picture of a falling block a guy on Weaponsforum
has picked up to finish. The fellow who started building
it laid it aside for awhile and the new guy is going to finish
in BMG. It has 50cal bbl on it. Looks easily big enough
for 12ga,10ga,8ga, my 700s. The lever on left is cocking
mechanism, The tube in back is a firing striker and spring
and it hits the hammer block you see in the back of the
breach block, which hits firing pin ahead of it in breach.
It is the the only one like it. They've put a lot of work
into it, especially the hammer block striker setup.Ed



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Old July 5, 2009, 11:22 AM   #475
HUBEL458
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In related big bore work we got a Montana Rifle
Co, PH action setup in my 700H 3.25" case. Fired
test load of 825gr at 3000 fps. This was just one
test load. Normal max loads are 825gr at 2850 and
1000gr at 2700.Hunting loads 24-2500, First PH fired
outside the factory.It is in first picture.
PH will work for any big case and my 585HE.And
if anyone looking at big actions for 12ga FH,
here is picture of MRC PH with a 3.5" 12ga case
partly into action. The PH cam be used for 12ga with
action and rails opened like I did my 700H in Enfield.
And a little changing on the bolt face and extractor
In 12 ga it still would have 60% of front lugs contacting
and you'd add bearing lug surface to bolt handle base so
it would handle same pressures as Savage 210.
And 3.5" with average length 12ga slug would feed from the
magazine. Our longer case would work with port opened
and some mag work. Ed



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