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Old April 12, 2007, 10:55 PM   #226
Webleymkv
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What do you think you could do with a saboted 750grn .50 caliber bullet in the shorter 2 7/8" Rocky Mtn. cases? If we can get the muzzle energy up to 4,000 fp or so, we might have a good Dangerous Game round (better sectional density than .730 slugs). Hmmmmm, I may have to have my NEF 10ga fitted with the rifled 12ga barrel.
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Old April 14, 2007, 10:07 PM   #227
HUBEL458
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You could get a 12ga Ultra riled gun like mine
easier than barreling yours.And a saboted 750
gr like that can get to 15-1600 with
our loadings in RMC cases.Which gets 4000
ft lbs. Ed
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Old April 14, 2007, 10:52 PM   #228
Webleymkv
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Thanks, according to their website, I can get a heavy 12ga slug barrel (rifled) fitted to my frame for $83.
http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.aspx
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Old April 15, 2007, 05:31 PM   #229
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That is a good price.I wish they'd do the rifled
barrels in 30 inch length. I asked but no
luck.Ed
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Old April 21, 2007, 09:03 PM   #230
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More VV N-110 testing that we got done.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed
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Old April 25, 2007, 09:18 PM   #231
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Testing soft buckhammer vs hard Dixie. Dixie 600 gr,
Buckhammer from factory hull 640gr with locked onwad,
out of Savage at 2300. Dixie went through 2 -1/8" steel
sheets and on through two more 3 feet away.Buckhammer
went through first two with same round hole, but made
a bunch of dents and one cockeyed hole 3 ft away.Ed
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Old April 29, 2007, 09:39 PM   #232
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Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases,600gr slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on
charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed.
Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed
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Old May 2, 2007, 05:04 PM   #233
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Tested 7383 with 730gr Dixie, 130gr gets 1650 plus fps
in NEF 24" bbl. Used 3" plastic cases. Same low expansion
as 7383 the 600gr loads and the 4759 lab tested loads.
Ignition perfect, no hesitation.Ed
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Old May 3, 2007, 06:42 PM   #234
azredhawk44
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Mr. Hubel:

Your commitment to your large-game rifled shotgun cartridges is amazing. I'm toying with the idea of joining your little club here with a NEF 12ga rifled slug gun and the purchase of some brass-cased shot shells.

Am I correct in assuming that I can begin to play in this category with you guys for less than $600 including long gun, additional stock weights/stock replacement/stock recoil pads, brass, powder, slugs, primers and dies?

I currently own no shotguns and no shotshell reloading equipment, however I do own a RockChucker press for handgun and rifle reloading.

What is the longest brass case you have successfully shot from your NEF without modification to the rifle's chamber? What is the optimal slug weight for the NEF's rate of twist? Are you still manufacturing your 12ga FH brass from 50BMG and then cutting them down to fit your NEF, or are you purchasing your brass from Rocky Mountain?

I've read your posts #162 and #163, I just want to make sure and verify I understand them correctly.
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Old May 4, 2007, 12:31 AM   #235
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I only got a few brass cases from RMC to test.NEF chamber will take
the 2 & 7/8" RMC brass. It took our case cut back to 3.00".
To cut our case back is too bothersome if you have to adapt to
small primers. Or do a lot of work on the gun to fire big primers.
So RMC is easier. Nef came with 3" chambers and 3" plastic is about 2.6" long when crimped. I found its easier to start with plastic, get a
simple shotgun die for press and a roll crimper, 10 cent 3" cases, and
you can get real hairy loads with 600gr Dixie slugs in 3" using
4759 and VV N110 powder. The 7383 powder also and it can go
with heavier slugs. Nef Ultra slug gun is $225, and with rest of
the stuff, $600 total should do it.Rcbs is supposed to have
dies for regular big presses.Ed
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Old May 4, 2007, 02:59 AM   #236
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Yes, after several years of it being a special order item, RCBS has made their 12 gauge dies for brass cases a regular catalogue item.
But you can only use them on single stage presses that have a removable bushing. You have to remove the bushing ala Hornady Lock'n'load adapters.

And, unless they have changed the die set priming is still a problem.
Brass shotgun vases are designed to use large pistol primers.
The primer pockets often are not deep enopugh for rifle primers.

I think one might be better off looking for a used MEC 600 Junior or such.
That way you can use cheaper plastic cases and hotter 209 shotgun primers.
Besides 12 gauge wads are a lot easier to find than 11 gauge wads.
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Old May 5, 2007, 07:15 PM   #237
HUBEL458
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The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing ectractor to
damage rim. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed
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Old May 19, 2007, 09:19 PM   #238
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Finished test of 7383/870 slug in NEF.
Tested 870gr hardened slug with 118gr of
7383, got 1500 plus. Perfect ignition.
Cases ejected easy, and has same base
expansion as the 600 gr slug/140gr 7383.
Will have these pressure/velocity tested
in few weeks.Ed
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Old May 22, 2007, 10:38 AM   #239
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wickliffe rifles

We at J.C.Gunsmithing are now making Wickliffe rifles on a custom basis. We are very interested in your project with the Super Magnum action, as there has been a lot of interest in making this into a 50 BMG. Could you send some pictures of how the project is coming along.
We have access to all the parts for Wickliffe rifles, and are having a well known stock company make wood. Maybe a composite stock, or laminate will be on the way.
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Old May 28, 2007, 10:21 PM   #240
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We are working on a model yet, will be a while.
Tested a 750 gr banded solid, grooves .009 smaller
than land diameter and got same velocity as
with lead slug weighing the same at same pressure.
Other banded brass slugs with groove debth
same as land raised pressures compared to lead.
Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage.Ed
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Old June 8, 2007, 10:08 AM   #241
HUBEL458
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The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed
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Old June 11, 2007, 10:46 AM   #242
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a 2-3 page report of progress to date with a few pictures would shure be easier to follow.

Make sure to include the terminal effects photos.



-tINY

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Old June 16, 2007, 09:06 PM   #243
HUBEL458
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tINY-- A couple more tests on pressure and then I
will post an report in simple outline form.
Anyone got any long 12ga rifled 30" plus
barrels, 1.3" plus diameter. Barrel
guy is shutting down and returning funds.
Been waiting for 12ga heavy barrel for
87 levergun since last summer.Boy it is
hard getting projects done.Ed
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Old June 22, 2007, 11:32 PM   #244
HUBEL458
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Here is a simple outline of what we've done with
our project we call the 12GA From Hell.
Some folks have asked us to do this.

A. The idea for this and the name was by
Robgunbuilder on the AR forum. We figured out how
to make a long brass case, from BMG brass by
machining rims and the case to screw them on.
We ended up with case after mouth was expanded
that was 3.85" long, with a big BMG primer.

B. Rob put his in a big Borchardt falling block,
a gun that can take full BMG type pressures.
It had firing mechanision that fired primers ok.
Example top load is a 1000gr turned brass slug at
3100 plus fps, and a 7/8oz 12ga sabot at
4300 fps.

C. First of mine in a Savage 210 bolt shotgun with a
heavy rifled 31" barrel. My loads in this were kept
below 35,000 psi. Giving loads of 2700 fps with
a 730 gr hard lead slug, and 3900 with 3/4oz sabot.
Second gun was a NEF Ultra that I lengthened chamber
to take long case. Top loads are 600gr hard slug
at 2500 plus fps.Both Savage and NEF had to have
firing mechanisions beefed up to fire BMG primers.

D. We cut cases back to use in 3" chambers but
all guns have to have beefed up hammers, etc,
to fire the big BMG primers.The BMG primers
fired the slow rifle powders ROB and I
were using very well, no misfires.
So tried 3" RMC brass cases, regular plastic cases,
our cut back cases with primer bushings, all with
smaller regular rifle or shotgun primers,
that regular hammers or firing pins fire ok,
and found out that our slow rifle powder loads
wouldn't fire reliably with small primers.

E. Which lead to much more research. We found that
slow powders could be fired with a 10 gr of a
fast shotgun starter powder, under the slow powder,
using small primers. We also searched for rifle
or pistol powders slower than shotgun powders,
that would fire with small primers and no starter,
that didn't up peak pressure to fast as
we increased loads to increase velocity.
We found three- IMR 4759, VV-N110, and 7383 surplus.
These powders are easier to load for slugs without
the problems of fast shotgun powders pushing up
the peak pressures to quick, as you try to increase
loads to up the velocity. We use a minimum
thickness overpowder wad or other wads in the loads
under the slugs as needed. We had lab test 4759
loads with 600gr slug and pressures were little less
than the magnum REM Buckhammer factory loads, but
we got 400 fps more velocity. The Buckhammer
slug and locked on wad is about 600 gr.Both our tested
loads and Rem loads are 3" plastic.Our loads are for heavy
barreled guns only. IE; all slow powder loads whether
with starter powder or 4759,N110, 7383, heavy barrels,
as the pressure curve is higher down the barrel
and might split regular skinny shotgun barrels.

F. We plan on heavy barrels for testing 1887 Win
leverguns, for Mossberg 695 bolt guns, for
various heavy double shotguns, for various
O/U, for modern alloy guns, etc.We are helping to
design a big falling block for 12ga diameter cases
that is reasonably priced.. We plan on testing
other powders, for use with small primers. We
plan on setting up pressure testing barrel for
the long 3,85" case, to test the whole range
of slow powders and bullet weights, in the future.
We have found heatreated Dixie slugs that can
take super velocities, we found brass slugs with
relieved grooves that run same pressures as lead,
or copper jacketed, at same velocities.
This research and work is super great fun,
we are glad to share.We will get pictures soon of
the muzzle blast with long case, and pics
of pentration tests. Ed
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Old June 29, 2007, 11:10 AM   #245
HUBEL458
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Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759. My earlier
report of 4227 not working was in error
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in big batch years ago.
Greg told me 4227 worked for him so I got new
jug, and saw the difference from jug I had.

So slower than shotgun, powders that ignite
properly; we have 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder. Ed
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Old July 7, 2007, 09:25 PM   #246
HUBEL458
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Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load.
870 gr with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could
be put in REM plastic and keep length to what
would feed from magazine of a 3" gun,
after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress.
1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%
heavier than factory Buckhammer at little
faster speed and at little less pressure.
Ignition perfect, cases fall out.
Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed
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Old July 8, 2007, 04:37 AM   #247
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Quote:
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in sale years ago.

This is why you should NEVER handle powder that is in anything other than the original factory container.
There are so many powders that look exactly like another that visial inspection is not always accurate. Never trust any gun show or second hand powder unless it's still factory sealed.

With over 150 powders available to todays reloaders you can't be too careful.
With so many having similar names or numbers it's all too easy for someone to get them confused. Just because it has the same number doesn't mean it's the same powder.

And burn rate charts aren't gospel either. They are to be used as a guideline at best. Powder X may burn faster than Powder Z in a .223 case but slower in a .300 Weatherby case.
You may be able to use the exact same charge of Powder A as Powder B in a 9mm case but discover a drastic difference in safe loads when used in a .45 Colt.
With some powders it doesn't matter if you use a standard or a magnum primer.
With other powders it makes a huge difference.
Trail Boss is a good example.
Using a 158gr lead bullet in .38 Special cases, 4.2gr gives you 804fps with a standard primer.
Using that same 158gr lead bullet in .357 Magnum cases, that same 4.2gr gives you 865fps with a magnum primer.
There's a big pressure difference between those two loads.
Normally when using the exact same load in both cases, the .357 Magnum will yeild slightly lower velocities and pressures that what you get with .38 Special brass.

I store my powders in a separate room. I only have one bottle/keg of powder at a time in my loading room. And I never leave powder in my measure when I'm not loading.
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Old July 8, 2007, 12:48 PM   #248
HUBEL458
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Due to facr I already had done fastest stick powder
there was no danger of overpressure. Anything else would
be slower.Which is what it was. A little slower, but
worse part was it wouldn't ignite properly so it
lost me time testing IMR 4227. I am also testing IMR
4227 next few weeks with heavier than 600 gr slugs.
Now I don't make the jump all the way to heaviest,
but go up in wt a little at a time.Do 730gr-800gr- 870gr.Ed
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Old July 8, 2007, 05:53 PM   #249
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My concerns were intended as a general caution for everyone, not as an abmonishment to you. So far your experiments seem to be very prudent.

Actually 4198 should have worked, since it has long been touted as a good powder for large, straightwalled, low pressure cartridges.
Perhaps what you had either wasn't 4198 OR if it was, it hadn't been properly stored. Which is another reason to only use the factory packaging.

Especially plactic. For many years powders were only packaged in metal or cardboard/fiberboard containers. It's only been fairly recently that plastic containers were used for gunpowder.

Because certain plastics, (certain ones, not all) when exposed to certain (there's that word again) powders can, over time, create a reaction that alters the powder and the plastic. And neither is altered for the better.
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Old July 8, 2007, 08:59 PM   #250
HUBEL458
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I know for sure is 4198 from fairly new can we tested before.
In cases up to as large as my 585HE with base same size range
as 577NE(.660")fired fine with regular primers. Every powder I have
fires in that size case with large rifle primer and mag shotgun primers
are stronger than lg rifle. It's when case diameter goes to .800
like 12ga or my 700HE or 50BMG then regular primers don't
work on most rifle powders, hence a bmg primer that are 3 times
as strong as lg rifle. In 12ga 4198 misfired or had delayed fire(this
one is when you hear hammer strike then a boom), about half
the loads. Very disconcerting and interesting to say the least.
We can use all powders as I related in posts a while back,
in cases with large rifle primers like magteck or other plastic
cases with shotgun primers, or RMC brass with shotgun primers,
if starter powder like Blue Dot is used. About 10 gr. And best
powder for doing that with is in mid range of the chart.
And stick powders only with starter powder.. Ed
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