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Old September 4, 2014, 10:38 PM   #1
Bennyfatsack
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.243 vs .22-250

My work mate and I are in constant arguement about which rifle is better suited to Australian medium to small game, I say .243 he says .22-250. I know I'm right so that doesn't matter I'm alway right just ask my wife( not ).
Any how we have now decided to have shoot off using as close to same ammo as possible purely working on groupings and flat trajectory, both running 55gr Winchester supreme ballistic tip factory ammo. His platform is a stainless bull barrel bolt action ruger with laminate stock, I'm running a chrome moly bull barrel howa on a axiom black hawk tactical stock. Now I am quietly confident but what the heck what dose everyone else think which of the two will win the shoot out if all else including shooters equal less the guns themselves. I've got a vibe which way people will swing ill just have to see!
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Old September 4, 2014, 11:00 PM   #2
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Well you will have a lot higher velocity (around 4K). Will that transfer to higher scores? Depends. It can help in the wind and it can help shooting unknown distances where you 'mis-under-estimate' the range (Dubya-ism).

So I say .243 if everything else is the same. Your throat will burn out faster too though. Make him use 75 gr bullets (both of you), and you will win running away - ha ha.

Wait, the twist on the Howa is 10, so you have "too much" - a 12 is better than 10 for 55s, I'm sure. Having "too much" may or may not screw up your flight. Just don't nick any grasses or they'll disintegrate.

And I hope your username doesn't mean what I envision in my mind it might mean, every time I read it (and then laugh). I mean, is that really something to brag about? Maybe it's an Aussie thing.
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Old September 5, 2014, 12:36 AM   #3
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If I read your post correctly, you chose the .243. I agree with you, but I think you made a mistake on the terms of the shoot off. I would have never agreed to shoot similar bullets. The 6mm has the advantage of shooting heavier high BC bullets (up to 115 grains if you go with Berger hunting bullets and have enough twist to stabilize them) which will help in the wind, because it isn't going to shoot them faster than the 22-250. It sounds like it's more of an accuracy contest, so I'd have to give you an edge...I've never been able to get a Ruger to shoot particularly well. Your lucky he doesn't have a savage...lol. How far are you guys shooting out to?
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Old September 5, 2014, 05:26 AM   #4
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It will be a best of five I've already pegged it out 50m, 100m, 200m, 300m and 400m. We will do that shoot using same 55gr weighted bullets and then after my eminent victory I'd say he'll insist of using his preferred ammo, in which case the 95gr Berger hand loads come out, just to completely demoralise the opposition and end the argument. And dremel? What can I say nick names stick!
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Old September 5, 2014, 06:07 AM   #5
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243 all the way. 22-250 is a IMHO a wasted caliber. Serves no purpose. My 223 is much more accurate,cheaper to load,shoots a heavier bullet and I only lose a few 100 fps. 22-250 is hard on brass ( so is a 243 ). The 243 could serve many more applications than a 22-250. My 243 is more accurate than my 22-250 is also.
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Old September 5, 2014, 06:13 AM   #6
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Too many variables in both shooting systems to tell. Each system includes rifle, ammo and shooter, to tell any ballistic differences that matter.

And the tests you are doing don't involve killing game so the results have no bearing settling the argument.
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Old September 5, 2014, 07:47 AM   #7
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The "best" may be different for each of you. I have rifles chambered for both .243 and .22-250 and would never consider using them both with 55 grain bullets, seems to be a waste, sort of like loading really light bullets in a .308 to make more like a .243. Each has its strengths why worry about which is best. Now if you are talking about which of you is the better shot with your chosen cartridge and rifle, then its game on! Good clean competitive fun and loser buys supper.
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Old September 5, 2014, 09:15 AM   #8
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennyfatsack
Any how we have now decided to have shoot off using as close to same ammo as possible purely working on groupings and flat trajectory, both running 55gr Winchester supreme ballistic tip factory ammo. His platform is a stainless bull barrel bolt action ruger with laminate stock, I'm running a chrome moly bull barrel howa on a axiom black hawk tactical stock. Now I am quietly confident but what the heck what dose everyone else think which of the two will win the shoot out if all else including shooters equal less the guns themselves. I've got a vibe which way people will swing ill just have to see!
Using the same brand 55gr bullets, the .243 is technically ballistically superior and both starts with and maintains more energy at any reasonable distance.

However, the muzzle energy difference is about 200ft-lbs and at 500 yards the trajectory is within 2-4 inches both drift (10mph wind) and drop while the energy difference is down to under 100 ft-lbs.

In other words, there's not a whit of difference in the real world. The .22-250 has less recoil and uses less powder. Neither has a very good barrel life, though the .22-250 should be slightly better. The effect on game animals will be indistinguishable.

Whichever is more accurate will be better, if the accuracy differences are enough to matter. If one shoots 1/4MOA and the other 1-1/4MOA, that will matter at long range. If they're within a 1/2MOA (or so) of each other, that won't matter either.
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Old September 5, 2014, 09:50 AM   #9
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Whichever rifle/shooter combination is the best will win your competition, but it won't settle the argument over which is better for small to medium game.

If you are talking small animals that you want to save the pelts for, I might choose the .22-250. If you are talking animals over 100 pounds, I might choose the .243. Even those "mights" are not in concrete by any stretch.
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Old September 5, 2014, 10:47 AM   #10
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Shooting 55 gr bullets in both doesn't tell much. Use proper bullets in each for a fair evaluation.
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Old September 5, 2014, 10:51 AM   #11
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Quote:
243 all the way. 22-250 is a IMHO a wasted caliber. Serves no purpose.
As much as I hate to say it, I completely agree. For what the .22-250 does, a .243 or even .25-06 or .270 win could do the same thing even better.

There should be 4000fps loads in all of these cartridges with light bullets. 6mm and 6.8mm should have slightly higher BC bullets in weights that can be pushed to, or near 4000fps. The higher BC bullets will retain their velocity over a longer range, making them shoot flatter, and they'll buck wind better and suffer from less wind deflection.

.224'' 50 grain V-max SD .142 BC .242
.243'' 58 grain V-max SD .140 BC .250
.277'' 85 grain nosler E-tip SD .158 BC .273

If the pelt is a concern there are nonexpanding bullets in 6mm and I know that there are at least 75 grain and 120 grain solids in .277/6.8mm
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Old September 5, 2014, 02:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
As much as I hate to say it, I completely agree. For what the .22-250 does, a .243 or even .25-06 or .270 win could do the same thing even better.
None of them can do it with so little powder and virtually no recoil.

If I was hunting anything smaller than deer and I had all those cartridges to choose from with the ideal bullet for the cartridge, I would pick .22-250. I wouldn't even consider any of the others to be options except .243.

I notice you list the E-Tip for the .270, no doubt trying to prove your point with the BC, but that's not a reasonable comparison. That's a monolithic big game bullet, not a varmint/small game bullet like the V-Max. I also note that you picked (no doubt intentionally) a lighter for caliber .224 bullet so it has a lower than expected BC.
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Old September 5, 2014, 03:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
I notice you list the E-Tip for the .270, no doubt trying to prove your point with the BC, but that's not a reasonable comparison. That's a monolithic big game bullet, not a varmint/small game bullet like the V-Max. I also note that you picked (no doubt intentionally) a lighter for caliber .224 bullet so it has a lower than expected BC.
That wasn't my intention. Firstly, the 6mm is lighter for caliber than the .224 yet still has a superior BC, or so Hornady claims. The .270 is heavier for caliber, because it's uncommon to find bullets lighter than 85 grains in that caliber, still even if it is heavier for caliber, that sort of makes one of my points. The .270 can fire heavier for caliber, higher BC bullets, at similar velocities that the .22-250 gets with lighter bullets.
I tried to offer a reasonable comparison, but alas, the V-max isn't made that light in .277 and the E-tip doesn't have light choices in .224 or .243
it's not so easy finding perfectly comparable bullets between the 3 calibers.
Compare a .224'' 55 grain TSX(.209) to a .277 85 grain TSX(.246). these bullets are roughly equally heavy for caliber(.001 difference in sectional density), and the .277 has a clear advantage according to Barnes' data. I'd add in the 6mm for comparison, but the only TSX made in that caliber is much heavier for caliber than the other two bullets, so all three can't be compared. Also, I realize these aren't varmint bullets, I'm just trying to establish, that generally, if you compare all three calibers with bullets of comparable sectional densities, and shape, that the larger 6mm and 6.8mm will often have slightly better ballistic coefficients

If you can find an equal comparison across all three calibers, I'd be happy to look at the data. I'm not trying to skew the results to make one caliber look better, that was not my intention. I am just not aware of a manufacture that makes bullets of equal shape, construction, and sectional density, across all three calibers.

You are absolutely right about the .22-250 doing it's job with less recoil and powder. That's expected. But honestly with such light bullets none of the calibers should recoil enough to cause a flinch, and in most cases you could probably easily spot your own shots, because recoil is so mild. Amount of powder burnt is only really going to make a difference to Hand loaders, and the difference shouldn't be so large that it's going to significantly effect someone financially, unless they're loading a massive amount of ammunition.

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Old September 5, 2014, 04:17 PM   #14
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Ok, well, I might be wrong but I doubt you'd find the 85gr E-Tip loaded in factory ammo for the .270Win. Nosler made it specifically for the 6.8SPC.

Let's say you did, though, and let's say it could do the same speed as Hodgdon's fastest listed 90gr load, which would be 3,603fps. Given the monolithic construction, that's generous.

That is a VERY light for caliber bullet. Almost nobody makes one that light in .270/6.8. The comparison would be a very light for caliber .224 bullet, like the Nosler LF 35gr. The 35gr Nosler (BC only 0.207) can be loaded to over 4,400fps in .22-250, but let's give it a more modest 4,250.

At 300 yards in a 10mph wind, the .22-250 has a 1.5" wind drift and 2" drop advantage. It continues to have the advantage, up to about 6" in both directions, all the way to 500 yards (and beyond). I personally load that exact bullet over 150fps faster, but it beats the .270 handily either way.

Using a .22-250 bullet with a BC that compares more favorably with the .270 bullet (0.273) such as Nosler's 55gr BT Spitzer (BC 0.267) and we give it a middle of the road speed of 3,700fps, the .22-250 STILL beats the .270 but it's essentially a real-world tie. That bullet could be pushed AT LEAST 100fps faster in the .22-250 and the speed for the monolithic .270 is, as I said, actually quite generous.

So, the .22-250 has less wind drift, a flatter trajectory, less recoil, uses less powder and is a short action, not to mention those 35gr LF's are just about the cheapest bullet you can buy, while the 85gr E-Tip is one of the most expensive. It's hard for me to see what the .270 does better in this scenario.
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Old September 5, 2014, 04:59 PM   #15
Bennyfatsack
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It's amazing how much technical data I am receiving for my calibre been taking notes, but just to clarify we are both aware of what our calibres are capable of and that they are both tried and proven on Aussie game. It's more of a novelty shoot out which he knew I would win using my hand loads which he does not do, so he wanted to try and level the playing field by setting the shoot out to as similar factory ammo as we could find. I should have phrased better at start we know what game they can take I believe and he hesitantly believes the .243 is more versatile. The test if more so a generalised test to say between ruger/howa
.22-250/.243 and me and him , for general accuracy and I was probing to see what everyone's opinion was both for calibre comparison with same 55gr, and platform all being factory bar my 1lb trigger mod, thanks to all for awesome feed back keep it coming it amazes me the wealth of knowledge floating around these forums!
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Old September 5, 2014, 08:30 PM   #16
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.243 vs .22-250

Quote:
Any how we have now decided to have shoot off using as close to same ammo as possible purely working on groupings and flat trajectory
Both are more than flat shooting and accurate enough for medium game, so determining which is flatter shooting / more accurate will decide nothing worth knowing.

Instead you should be looking at which is more effective and reliable, which IMO goes to the 243 hands down. Although that said, I'd still rather have a 7mm-08 than either.
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Old September 5, 2014, 08:53 PM   #17
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The "Varminter" was Jerry Gebby's necked-down .250-3000, back in the 1930s. So, Remington finally took note and came out with the .22-250.

My uncle built his Varminter in the late 1940s with a Gebby barrel on a bring-back Mauser 98 action. (Bishop stock, Weaver K10 scope.) Half-MOA back then was quite nice. With the bullets of the day, it was mostly a coyote, jackrabbit and prairie dog cartridge.

I've shot prairie dogs to 300 yards with 55-grain bullets in my 243. If you're into Red Mist, it's a hoot. My coyote and deer load is the 85-grain Sierra HPBT. On deer, neck shots or cross-body heart/lung shots only.

Based on all the above blather, I'd sorta figure that on smaller critters, it's pretty much six of one, half-dozen of the other.
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Old September 5, 2014, 09:49 PM   #18
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There's always at least one, sorry natman did you not read my second post before posting yours, if you think this proves nothing worth knowing and should be another test and the 7-08 is better, start another thread that is relevant to yourself and what's worth knowing instead of trying to correct a question I want opinions on, not what questions I should ask. If you don't find it worth knowing you'll find it's not worth posting on also. Sorry I asked the question ( more of a novelty shoot out )
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Old September 6, 2014, 09:53 AM   #19
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Here's the question you asked:

Quote:
My work mate and I are in constant arguement about which rifle is better suited to Australian medium to small game,
So I pointed out - quite correctly - that your test isn't going to prove anything about which rifle is better suited to Australian medium to small game.

My point was entirely relevant to the question you asked.

If you and your buddy want to settle a bar bet about which cartridge is flatter shooting and more accurate more power to you but it has nothing to do with which cartridge is more suitable for hunting.

Last edited by natman; September 6, 2014 at 10:00 AM.
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Old September 6, 2014, 10:33 AM   #20
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Grrr. Enuf of that. natman, you're taking one part of the OP out of context. Sure, the 7mm08 might be better, but the deal is the comparison of only the two cartridges.

As far as ballistics, with equal-weight bullets, the fatter one slows down more rapidly than the skinny one. That affects trajectory.
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Old September 6, 2014, 10:43 AM   #21
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A Ruger .22-250 is 1:14 twist, are there even any bullets/ammo available that are suitable for medium game that will stabilize in a twist that slow?

I always fall back to Dan Lilja's chart to get a general idea of what will work, and it says 50-52 gr for 1:14 twist, but isn't 55gr as heavy as you can really go in a factory .22.250?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Eatman
As far as ballistics, with equal-weight bullets, the fatter one slows down more rapidly than the skinny one.
True, but using equal weight bullets really makes the test meaningless. You want a meaningful test, use the best for caliber in each.

That is like saying my Honda Civic is as fast a your Porsche 911, so pull two spark plug wires and we will race.
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Old September 6, 2014, 10:50 AM   #22
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Personally, I find both cartridges perfectly adequate for the game at hand.

Have known many people that use both cartridges effectively on white tailed deer.

While not exactly relevant to the discussion I did find an interesting link on another thread that is about the .243.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8l1pzKevL4

This guy is good....

Last edited by std7mag; September 6, 2014 at 11:08 AM.
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Old September 6, 2014, 01:09 PM   #23
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Quote:
natman, you're taking one part of the OP out of context. Sure, the 7mm08 might be better, but the deal is the comparison of only the two cartridges.
I see that now. But let's consider the matter closed and focus on the actual question at hand; 22-250 vs 243 for flat shooting and accuracy.

As has been pointed out, a 55 grain bullet from a 224 caliber rifle is not really similar to a 55 grain 243 bullet. If you want to settle the question, then it should be which is flatter shooting and more accurate given the optimal bullet for each caliber. For a 243 I suspect that that will be something heavier than 55 grains. The high velocity you can get with such a light-for-caliber bullet looks flashy, but while velocity comes and goes ballistic coefficient is forever.
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Old September 6, 2014, 02:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
A Ruger .22-250 is 1:14 twist, are there even any bullets/ammo available that are suitable for medium game that will stabilize in a twist that slow?
Yep! Nosler 64gr bsb. It is a very devastating round out two 200yds.

Quote:
I always fall back to Dan Lilja's chart to get a general idea of what will work, and it says 50-52 gr for 1:14 twist, but isn't 55gr as heavy as you can really go in a factory .22.250?
Reference materials are an excellent source of information, but if not updated frequently the info tends to become obsolete. The fact is that the 14 twist will stabilize bullets heavier than 55gr, but the bullet construction and length are critical design factors for hunting bullets and stability.

Quote:
will decide nothing worth knowing.
Quote:
If you and your buddy want to settle a bar bet about which cartridge is flatter shooting and more accurate more power to you
Condescending comes to mind. Perhaps if one checked ones tone at the door, fewer people would get rubbed the wrong way?

As the OP suggested, the intent was for fun competition not a scientific test to measure any specific outcome. FUN I said!
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Old September 6, 2014, 07:25 PM   #25
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Everybody needs to settle down and get back on topic or this will be closed.
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