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Old January 28, 2006, 06:09 PM   #26
rapidarp
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Personally, I don't believe these should have been released to the public. Now use LEOs (i'm a soon-to-be LEO) have one more thing we gotta watch out for when we come into contact with people.
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Old January 28, 2006, 06:22 PM   #27
TexasSIGMan
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Personally, I don't believe these should have been released to the public. Now use LEOs (i'm a soon-to-be LEO) have one more thing we gotta watch out for when we come into contact with people.
Oh please GOD don't start out as one of "those" LEOs that think everyone else should go unarmed because you are "special".
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Old January 28, 2006, 07:03 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyDTC
The Taser will not 'knock someone out''.
Sorry, I should have said "incapacitate".

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyDTC
Are they expensive? Yes. However, to put the costs into perspective, which will cost you more when you have to deploy it? The handgun or taser?
This is only me, but I'm more likely to trust my life to a handgun than a taser. Whatever legal consequences I face are going to have to be rescinded until the crisis has passed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasSIGMan
Well, my wife is 105 pounds soaking wet, she's not likely to be able to pull off any neat tricks.....
Point taken. My girlfriend weighs about 90 lbs @ 5 feet, and both of us are more comfortable with her having a handgun than a taser. Yes, it's lethal force, but it's her life on the line too, right?
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Old January 28, 2006, 07:54 PM   #29
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If that is the case then why carry OC? If you are justified in using OC, just shoot the sucker.....
No, that isn't true at all. You are justified to use OC at a much lower level (reference the force continuum) than you can use your handgun. For example, you would be justified to use OC if someone put their hands on you in a threatening manner. You would not so easily be justified to use the handgun in the same situation.

Alternatively, if the situation calls for deadly force, the OC shouldn't be in your hand.

Quote:
I have not heard of OC being considered lethal in any jurisdiction.
OC is considered a 'less lethal'. That is, the expected result from a proper use isn't death, but death can occur.

Quote:
Despite the protestations if Tazer Inc, the jury is still out.
Quite the opposite. The jury has been 'in' on lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit. So far, not ONE has been upheld. That doesn't mean people won't continue to file suit though.

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guns are a more....permanent solution against crime. Tazers are half measures.
Yes, guns certainly are a permanent solution. Assuming you make good hits, the BG will be permanently injured or even possibly suffer death. Of course, that is an instance where deadly force was justified. The taser isn't a replacement for the deadly force option and shouldn't necessarily be used under those conditions. The good side about using a taser is that there is a very good chance you will not be the defendant in a criminal homicide or wrongful death suit. I am thinking that there is a general lack of understanding of the force continuum, ladder of force, or force wheel; whichever model you prefer to use.

Quote:
Personally, I don't believe these should have been released to the public. Now use LEOs (i'm a soon-to-be LEO) have one more thing we gotta watch out for when we come into contact with people.
Take that position to its logical conclusion and the sheep will be allowed to own nothing. Sorry, that isn't a valid argument. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but spend a few minutes and actually read that Constitution which you are about to swear an oath to uphold. On the positive side, if you were shot with a taser would that not ultimately be better than being shot with the alternative? Think about it.

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Old January 28, 2006, 08:13 PM   #30
TexasSIGMan
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No, that isn't true at all. You are justified to use OC at a much lower level (reference the force continuum) than you can use your handgun. For example, you would be justified to use OC if someone put their hands on you in a threatening manner. You would not so easily be justified to use the handgun in the same situation.

Alternatively, if the situation calls for deadly force, the OC shouldn't be in your hand.
That's my point. The poster I replied to said that Tasers were a level of force UP from OC, the same as a firearm.

He said why bother with the Taser, just shoot.

I replied that the Taser and OC were level, not firearm and Taser.

Quote:
Point taken. My girlfriend weighs about 90 lbs @ 5 feet, and both of us are more comfortable with her having a handgun than a taser. Yes, it's lethal force, but it's her life on the line too, right?
And yes, the firearm is great, my wife has a LadySmith and carries it some.

The problem for her is that she's a teacher, so 90% of her day outside the house she's in a "gun free zone" but the Taser seems to be a nice fit in the middle somewhere.
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Old January 28, 2006, 08:30 PM   #31
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That's my point. The poster I replied to said that Tasers were a level of force UP from OC, the same as a firearm.

He said why bother with the Taser, just shoot.

I replied that the Taser and OC were level, not firearm and Taser.
Sorry, I missed that. My bad.

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Old January 28, 2006, 09:46 PM   #32
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No no, that's OK. I appreciate your responses.

That is pretty much the gist of what I am asking, where the Taser fits in this.

Equal to OC, a bit above but somewhere below a firearm.

"Legally" where do these things fit?
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Old January 28, 2006, 10:25 PM   #33
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Here is an image of the document we use in our classes.

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Old January 29, 2006, 06:01 AM   #34
TexasSIGMan
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Thank you, that is EXACTLY what I was looking for.....
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Old January 29, 2006, 01:52 PM   #35
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Notice that the Tazer is in the 'less lethal' range, but not considered 'non-lethal'. OC is probably a little high, since I have yet to see a jurisdiction that considers it as lethal.
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Old January 29, 2006, 02:37 PM   #36
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rapidarp said:
Quote:
Now use LEOs (i'm a soon-to-be LEO) have one more thing we gotta watch out for when we come into contact with people.
:barf:

to which, TexasSIGman replied:
Quote:
Oh please GOD don't start out as one of "those" LEOs that think everyone else should go unarmed because you are "special".
I agree with TexasSIGman.
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Old January 29, 2006, 06:25 PM   #37
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Personally, I don't believe these should have been released to the public. Now use LEOs (i'm a soon-to-be LEO) have one more thing we gotta watch out for when we come into contact with people.
If you'r THAT concerned, then maybe you should rethink your career choice.... :barf:
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Old January 30, 2006, 07:47 PM   #38
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Just a few ?'s

If an officer was shot IN HIS KEVLAR VEST with a taser, would he get tased?

If an officer was shot with a taser, once he recouped would he be allowed to use his firearm? I think so. What does uncle sam think about that? I hear that more BG's are carrying tasers because they are a useful tool yet aren't illegal to carry and don't carry the same penalties if used in a crime.

I certainly hope that when am old enough to become an LEO that they will issue all officers tasers; they seem to be pretty effective. As part of the academy to you have to be shot by a taser (like how you get sprayed with OC)??
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Old January 30, 2006, 08:03 PM   #39
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If an officer was shot IN HIS KEVLAR VEST with a taser, would he get tased?
We just had to try that one . Answer's no.

Quote:
If an officer was shot with a taser, once he recouped would he be allowed to use his firearm?
If you mean, would he be able, yes. A Taser hit hurts like hell, but the instant it kicks off, you're able to function again, although, some do experience some disorientation.

Quote:
As part of the academy to you have to be shot by a taser (like how you get sprayed with OC)??
Depends on the department. Most don't require that you actually be punctured by the probes, but a lot do require the "circle jerk", where you link arms and both end guys hold one of the leads. Trust me, the effect's the same. The record take down is held by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. They took down more than 120 troopers linking arms with one Taser .
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Old January 30, 2006, 08:10 PM   #40
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If an officer was shot with a taser, once he recouped would he be allowed to use his firearm?
Yes. If the officer thinks that by being tazed, he may be disarmed or put into some other life threatening situation. Same situation if a cop comes across a person experienced in martial arts. If you think the person of such force is able to incapacitate you, thus preventing you from defending yourself, deadly force is authorized.
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Old January 30, 2006, 11:34 PM   #41
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I'm no cop, but I work with them everyday. They tell me that they USUALLY draw their tasers before their glocks. Of course depending on the situation. So yes, tasers do and SHOULD have a place in the police.
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Old February 4, 2006, 01:03 PM   #42
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For non-LEO civilian use, the Taser would probably be an attractive form of defense for those who are afraid of guns, aren't the type of person who wishes to use a deadly weapon, cannot legally own or carry an actual firearm or wish to have a firearm in their household and wish to stop their attacker with a less than lethal form of defense.
A woman carrying a purse holding a Taser for her protection or a person who keeps a Taser in his vehicle for defense against car jackers and the like would be my guess of those, other than LEOs, that would carry a Taser.
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Old February 4, 2006, 09:09 PM   #43
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If an officer was shot IN HIS KEVLAR VEST with a taser, would he get tased?
It depends upon the construction of the vest. If there were low resistance (electrically conductive) fibers in the vest, the current conducted through the person may be low to none at all.

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Old February 4, 2006, 10:38 PM   #44
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I don't think Tasers should be used by non-LEO's for one reason. When an officer uses a Taser to incapacitate someone, they are generally cuffed or otherwise restrained afterward. The "Tasee" as described above, is usually fully functional once the charge is stopped. I wonder, would a determined attacker disengage at that point? Many an attacker has stopped attacking when shot with a bullet(s), or at least slowed down to the point his quarry can escape without too much difficulty. Seems to me I'd like to "stun" an attacker for at least a few minutes so I could clear out and get help, or otherwise restrain him until help arrives. The Taser doesn't presently have a "stun" feature, so I'd rather rely on the real attack-stopping and deterrence of my conventional handgun until a real "in between" option comes along.
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Old February 5, 2006, 04:06 PM   #45
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J.D.B.

This is a commonly held opinion but also one that has been formed without all of the facts. Please research the X26c (citizen) taser. They do not operate in the same manner as the law enforcement models.

The citizen model can be set to cycle for up to 30 seconds once deployed. This gives a person plenty of time to lay their (discharding) taser unit on the ground and run away.

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Old February 5, 2006, 07:19 PM   #46
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Thanks Randy, Interesting "cycling" feature. Too bad they aren't legal here in Michigan.
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Old February 5, 2006, 08:50 PM   #47
TexasSIGMan
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Well, after reading all this and researching I've decided to buy one of the citizen models for my wife.

Like I said, she has a LadySmith but she works in a school all week and there's just no way to carry there without severe repercussions.

So far the Tasers slide "under the radar" and appear to be appropriate for that kind of environment.

Yes they cost too damn much money, but I don't see another choice that is as good a fit. OC spray seems like a good starting point, but you'd need a place to escalate to if it doesn't work.

Thanks for all the input.
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Old February 6, 2006, 02:18 AM   #48
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Do tasers have a place in non-LEO self defense? Of course. Why would they not? Just how many other less lethal weapons do folks have that allow you to disable another person from a distance? Assuming things work properly, even a little old lady who is against shooting people with a firearm can use a taser, fire it accurately, and stop her attacker without undue stress.

With that said, I won't be buying one as I don't think it is a good option for my needs.
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Old February 6, 2006, 01:35 PM   #49
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rapidarp wrote:

Quote:
Personally, I don't believe these should have been released to the public. Now use LEOs (i'm a soon-to-be LEO) have one more thing we gotta watch out for when we come into contact with people.
Please, for all our sakes, if you are going into it with THAT attitude, pick another profession. US citizens do not have do be unarmed, defenseless, and grab their ankles because you are a cop. Remember grasshopper, wether we are armed or not, we are UPSTANDING, LAW ABIDING, CITIZENS. You have nothing to fear from us. Its police with attitudes and guns "WE" fear.....

Its the whole us against them, guilty until you spend the money to prove your innocent thing.....:barf:
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Old February 6, 2006, 02:41 PM   #50
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Thanks Randy, Interesting "cycling" feature. Too bad they aren't legal here in Michigan.
Josh
You guys (and gals) miss out on a lot of neat things up there.

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