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Old January 27, 2006, 09:36 AM   #1
TexasSIGMan
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Do you think Tasers have a place in non LEO self defense?

I'm beginning to consider one of these instead of OC as an "intermediate" weapon before the fireram.

Non-LEO sales of the things are skyrocketing and they have introduced a couple of newer models.

Do you think they have a place in the "force continuum" for non LEOs?
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Old January 27, 2006, 10:14 AM   #2
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Yes, Tasers do have a place in the force continuum. Just not the last place.
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Old January 27, 2006, 11:24 AM   #3
NDTerminator
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I've been trying unsuccessfully to convince my Chief of the need for Tasers. He feels the liability is too great. I disagree vehemently, there's far more liability in knowingly depriving officers of a viable less lethal use of force option...
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Old January 27, 2006, 02:29 PM   #4
Glenn E. Meyer
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This is a case of exaggerating vivid instances.

For the chief - yes, some folks seem to have died after a Taser.

However, what percent of instances where lethal or damaging force would have been used are now resolved with Tasers so less harm is produced as compared to the incidence of harm with Tasers?

That's the issue, not a vivid instance.
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Old January 27, 2006, 02:46 PM   #5
ATW525
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As far as non LEO self defense goes, I just don't really see the benefit of the taser over an pepperspray/firearm combination. Perhaps it's just me, but I have a hard time envisioning a scenario where the taser be useful enough to be worth the cost.
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Old January 27, 2006, 03:08 PM   #6
Mikeyboy
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I researched Tasers and I found some problems with them.

1) they are expensive, some cost as much as a regular firearm

2) They are a one on one weapon, while you can taser a BG and reload another cartridge to taser another bad guy (which means you need to disconnect the juice from the first BG), it takes a few seconds

3) Short range weapon

4) Possible probes not penetrating thick clothing

5) Bulky

6) Most manufactures make civilian taser "traceable" (confette with serial #, pops out when you fire a tazer) which can be a good thing, but may cause liability issues.

7) Tazer are great for LE to put someone into submission for an arrest, but bad in an civilian fire and flee situation since they either need to drop the tazer or take the time to detach the cartridge.

8) May cause heart damage.

9) Illegal to carry in some areas.

I think Tazer are good for LE, but OC or a Good Stungun is a better less that lethal option for civilians.
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Old January 27, 2006, 05:33 PM   #7
CraigJS
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Aren't Tazers about 7-900+- each? I think I'd rather spend the money on another CZ75D PCR, some GOOD OC spray, and about 2 cases of practice ammo...
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Old January 27, 2006, 06:56 PM   #8
TexasSIGMan
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They have one model in the 350-400 range, and the prices keep going down.

I know the prices were scary initially, but like anything that goes away with volume.

That's why I asked about them. For a grand it's a bit ridiculous, but in the $250 range rapidly approaching, I thought they deserved another look as maybe a more usable alternative to OC.

OC has lots of problems. LE departments are not moving to the Taser because of the cool yellow color.

Just trying to guage if their effectiveness applies to non LEO situations.
Ignore price for a second and then what do you guys think about them?
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Old January 27, 2006, 09:09 PM   #9
RandyDTC
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IMO, the taser fills a 'hole' on the FC outside of LE - espeically for those who do not carry firearms.

There are a number of states that have made the devices illegal for non-government possession.

I am also a certified Taser instructor - I want to address some of the information posted in this thread.

The X series Tasers are smaller than a lot of commonly-carried handguns. That said, I really don't have room on my body to conceal more than one handgun-sized object. I wouldn't leave the firearm at home in exchange for the taser. Your situation may be different.

ALL Taser cartridges have the 'confetti'. These are called AFIDs, for 'Anti Felon identification'. When you make the purchase, the ID number from each cartridge is recorded.

The Tasers are expensive, yes. However, if you lose your Taser in a self defensive application (and you should if it is deployed as directed), Taser (the company) will replace it when you submit a copy of the police report. In that light...

The 'citizen' taser has a 10 second cycle time and it can be increased to as much as 30 seconds with a couple additional presses of the trigger after deployment. The taser is then placed on the ground while you make your escape. (I am not going to argue the merits of this tactic - certainly it can be what-if'ed to death)

The taser is a short range device. The cartridges available to non-governmental personnel only contain 15 feet of wire. (LE can get 21 and 25 feet) Of course, for a justified claim of self defense, the distances are going to be short anyway.

The arc can go through 2 inches of clothing. Heavy winter coats do represent a potential problem.

There is no evidence whatsoever of a Taser discharge ever causing heart damage. If you look at the Taser's current curve, it is well under the limits established to cause fibrillation.

Tasers are available in black and 'safety' yellow.

Here are some pictures:

XP and 'standard' probes.



M26 model with arc - no cartridge installed.


Here are the different cartridges.


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Old January 27, 2006, 09:32 PM   #10
Optical Serenity
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I personally don't see any reason to have it for non uniform personnel. I am an LEO, and we are not issued tasers, but I think we should be. when off duty, I don't feel the need to carry a taser. I carry OC and that stuff is insane..if I need more I probably need my gun, or the two I carry when off duty.

if you think OC is not enough, spray yourself with a 10 second burst of Sabre Red...haha don't say I didn't warn you...
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Old January 27, 2006, 10:01 PM   #11
ATW525
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I really don't have room on my body to conceal more than one handgun-sized object. I wouldn't leave the firearm at home in exchange for the taser.
That's really one reason why I don't see a use for them in the self defense role, at least for me personally. Carrying both a taser and a handgun isn't exactly practical, and given the choice I'd take the handgun anyday. Effective spray weapons can be found in a much smaller, concealable and easier to transport package than a taser and works well as a non-lethal alternative in my opinion.

I believe the taser is outstanding tool for subduing and arresting the bad guys. When it comes down to it, though, arresting the bad guys just isn't my job.
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Old January 27, 2006, 10:13 PM   #12
Mikeyboy
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Make a effective taser the size of a Kel Tec P32, that can shoot 30 ft, and cost less than $100, and you would make millions.
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Old January 27, 2006, 10:14 PM   #13
OneInTheChamber
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I'd have to say that, like the bean bag shotgun loads, LEO's have back up with deadly force ready to back them up. Most CCW'ers don't have a couple armed buddies with them all the time.

Don't bring a (insert less lethal weapon here) to a gun fight.

I think they are great for LEO, but if it warrants a taser for a CCW'er, it probably would have been legal with full force. Least thing you want is one of the probes missing the BG and you getting hurt.
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Old January 27, 2006, 10:45 PM   #14
TexasSIGMan
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Well what struck my interest was the fact that neither my state nor the Feds seem to consider them firearms, so you can carry them in places you just can't otherwise.

It's for those situations that I'm seriously considering buying one.

My wife is a teacher, which means she's pretty much banned from carrying most of her day, but these things seem to, so far at least, be flying under the radar from a legal standpoint.
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Old January 28, 2006, 12:17 AM   #15
gamma
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just a quick story...

a much larger-than-average-sized female customer was shopping in the store that i work and for some reason or another became verbally abusive, escalating to wild gesturing, screaming and threats of violence to some of my fellow employees. a manager was able to escort the uncontrollable woman outside of our facility, onto the parking lot. the local LEO's were contacted prior to this and were waiting outside (it is nice having a station about 1/2 mile form your business). the officers tried to de-escalate the situation by talking the woman down. this approach only made the woman more enraged, and the police were forced to use "less than lethal" force.

Two rounds of taser ammunition were "fired" at the woman. the first round was ineffective and necessitated the second shot to subdue the woman. the police were able to take the woman into custody, but apparently, a lawsuit has been filed against the department for excessive force. I live in a relatively conservative area so it seems very likely that the case will be thrown out as frivolous. but in either case, the liability issue is still there and this woman is continuing to waste our municipal tax dollars trying to make a buck for making an ass of herself in public.
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Old January 28, 2006, 07:43 AM   #16
stratus
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I think tazers are like, sorta interesting, but seems sort of an expensive route to go if you want to knock someone out.
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Old January 28, 2006, 09:26 AM   #17
TexasSIGMan
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Quote:
I think tazers are like, sorta interesting, but seems sort of an expensive route to go if you want to knock someone out.
Well, my wife is 105 pounds soaking wet, she's not likely to be able to pull off any neat tricks.....
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Old January 28, 2006, 10:31 AM   #18
RandyDTC
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The Taser will not 'knock someone out''.

Are they expensive? Yes. However, to put the costs into perspective, which will cost you more when you have to deploy it? The handgun or taser?

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Old January 28, 2006, 10:51 AM   #19
brickeyee
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“There is no evidence whatsoever of a Taser discharge ever causing heart damage. If you look at the Taser's current curve, it is well under the limits established to cause fibrillation.”

You have bought into the Tazer companies advertising without doing any research.
The published tests of the taser show a current in excess of 500 milliamps, and that was with an unrealistic 20,000 ohm load on the unit. This is the level the infamous ‘pig tests’ were performed at (under the guidance of a doctor with an ownership interest in Taser).
If the barbs enter the skin, the resistance of the human body falls well below 20,000 ohms.
Tazers do not control the current supplied, only the voltage waveform.
Tazer also has made claims of ‘skin effect’ limiting current entry into the deeper tissues of the body. The frequency if operation of the voltage waveform is not high enough for any skin effect to occur. The current spreads out in the body in a completely unpredictable way (since the barb location is essentially random).
Tazer likes to claim an “average” current of only a few milliamps. The nervous system responds to peak currents, not averages.
After conversations with a number of MEs, they acknowledged there is no practical way to determine nerve damage or effects after the fact on a deceased if thermal damage (burning of tissue) does not occur.
Just use a gun. If you are justified in using a Tazer, as a non-LEO you should be justified in using a firearm.
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Old January 28, 2006, 10:53 AM   #20
Mikeyboy
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Quote:
the police were able to take the woman into custody, but apparently, a lawsuit has been filed against the department for excessive force. I live in a relatively conservative area so it seems very likely that the case will be thrown out as frivolous. but in either case, the liability issue is still there and this woman is continuing to waste our municipal tax dollars trying to make a buck for making an ass of herself in public.
What gets me is what other less then lethal option is there without OC or a taser??? Would it be better if she got wacked with a nightstick , like they did 30 years ago? I don't know how you LE guys get the job done without screaming somedays.
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Old January 28, 2006, 01:24 PM   #21
TexasSIGMan
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Quote:
Just use a gun. If you are justified in using a Tazer, as a non-LEO you should be justified in using a firearm.
If that is the case then why carry OC? If you are justified in using OC, just shoot the sucker.....

And, you're leaving out the part where there are places you just CAN'T have your firearm with you.

That's my question. When you can't carry, is this a better alternative than doing nothing or carrying OC?
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Old January 28, 2006, 03:45 PM   #22
brickeyee
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I have not heard of OC being considered lethal in any jurisdiction.
Despite the protestations if Tazer Inc, the jury is still out.
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Old January 28, 2006, 04:47 PM   #23
ATW525
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Quote:
When you can't carry, is this a better alternative than doing nothing or carrying OC?
Personally there's very few places I can't carry, and I wouldn't be able to carry a tazer into those either. Typically I just avoid those places, which isn't hard since it's mainly courts and federal buildings.
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Old January 28, 2006, 05:23 PM   #24
Doug.38PR
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guns are a more....permenant solution against crime. Tazers are half measures.

Tazers would probably be good if you older parents want to ensure your grounded teenager doesn't leave the house anyway. "Dude, dad this like totally stinks main. This like just isn't fair. I'm like totally outta here, man."

"One more step son and I'll....okay, you ask for it."

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Old January 28, 2006, 06:06 PM   #25
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Most people that are shot survive.
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If you dont finish the bg off, you might get sued but you wont be responsible for his death.
I dont see the need to have a less lethal weapon unless you are required to by law.
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