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Old January 31, 2006, 01:20 AM   #51
joneb
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wow, I see someone is headed to the school of hard knocks. Now I understand why the bar needs to be higher.
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Old January 31, 2006, 02:02 AM   #52
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Old January 31, 2006, 06:52 AM   #53
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wow, I see someone is headed to the school of hard knocks. Now I understand why the bar needs to be higher.
I dont. ???
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Old January 31, 2006, 07:32 AM   #54
invention_45
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Thanks for the welcome, Doug...

Legality of carrying ammunition is something I haven't really researched, so I don't know. I don't remember running across any statutes covering it, though, and I've read them to death since our self-defense (SYG) laws changed recently.

I think that it's just because it was the courthouse. They can do pretty much whatever they want there, and I guess their attitude is that you can file an appeal if you don't like it. I'm guessing the occupants (judges, SA, etc.) make the rules.

To give you an idea, on the boilerplate part of a RO, either temporary or permanent, is the commandment that the respondent (meaning the stalking creep, but that's another issue) is prohibited by law to not be in possession of any firearm OR ammunition while the order is in effect.

The law, by the way, only specifies this to be the case after the PERMANENT RO has been issued, but since there's no hearing before the TRO is issued, it's sort of hard to argue against it.

Back to taking the gun off in the car. I'm just getting used to carrying again after a 2 year break (long stalking-related story that I'll spare yall on this thread). I have a really nice hard leather in-pants holster I bought specifically for my Cougar .45 when I had it. I snipped a few threads and it works OK for the HK-USP.

On the one hand, it's a heck of a lot easier to grab it from the glove box in an emergency than to wrestle it out of the holster when all settled in. But, on the other hand, playing the game of removing it from the glove box and cramming it past the seat belt (even when undone the belt has a protruding part from the seat that is in the way) and into the somewhat-squished-shut holster is kind of awkward in a busy Publix parking lot.

The result is that I've had that same experience...waiting for the rare moment when nobody's waiting to park behind me, loading their groceries, getting out of their car or something else to transfer the gun without being seen.

I suspect part of the problem is the USP is on the big side for a CC weapon. But I intentionally picked it that way. I think with time I'll get it all worked out, and I hit what I'm aiming at with it a lot better than with any of the compact .45s that I tried.
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Old February 5, 2006, 08:18 PM   #55
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Nscale,

I understand your position, but take this into consideration: getting caught carrying now could make it impossible for you to get a permit when you do get your debt straightened out. It might even keep you from even legally owning a gun in the future.

Why not get a Florida permit? PDO is down again so I can't check, but I don't remember there being any stipulations on outstanding debts.

joe
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Old February 9, 2006, 04:56 AM   #56
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Wow ---

People sure do worry about strange things!!! Some people wih their CCW must be so scared with flashing it or so forth that they must walk around as obvious as day to anyone with the slightest bit of training or experance that something is up. I frequently remove mine sitting in my truck and no one notices or cares --- heck people are so oblivius you could probibly sit there and clean it fro all anyone care --- I was once flased by two women sitting in a parking lot --- I got a call for a phone interview with a reporter just as I was pulling into the grocery store so I'm just sitting there on the phone when this car pulls in across from me and the one must have had a mole or something she wanted the others opinion on --- it was pretty funny becuse they looked up and were obviously mortiifed by the situation.

I rarely clear mine as I have very secure storage in the truck +/- a German Sheppard waiting for my return and I worry that were one to witness the act of loading / unloading that that might be interpreted as agressive or getting ready for something by the sheep out there.
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Old February 9, 2006, 12:08 PM   #57
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RsqVet sez:
People sure do worry about strange things!!! Some people with their CCW must be so scared with flashing it.
That is not the case at all. In New York State concealed means just that, out of sight totally and completely out of sight at all times! That means you cannot flash your handgun or give someone a "peek" to scare them or to show them you are a "tough" guy. If someone sees you handling your firearm it's their prerogative to call the police and report you as "someone with a gun" and in todays climate that's very possible. That's why when I'm carrying I don't want anyone to know.

BTW, If I'm not mistaken, not only is it illegal to take a firearm into the court house or any other government building but it is also illegal to take a firearm onto government property including their parking lot!
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Old February 9, 2006, 03:45 PM   #58
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BTW, If I'm not mistaken, not only is it illegal to take a firearm into the court house or any other government building but it is also illegal to take a firearm onto government property including their parking lot!
To my understanding, in Texas anyway, the prohibition of carrying on government (state or Federal) property (schools, courthouses, city halls, capitols) does not apply to parking lots, driveways and sidewalks.
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Old February 9, 2006, 04:00 PM   #59
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Doug.38PR,

Different states different laws but however, as far as Federal law goes, when I go to the VA hospital, I've been reminded to not even have a weapon in my truck, no weapons on federal property, period! Maybe that's just a misinterpretation of the law but that's what I was told by the security officer at the VAMC and that's all it takes to have my permit revoked, permanently!
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Old February 9, 2006, 05:09 PM   #60
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RiverRat --

I am not suggesting sloppy concelment, however if one walks around scared to death of a break in concellment that is as obvious to many having the gun exposed --- you may have seen this --- people tuggging at shirts, looking down, patting the weapon, adjustments, etc. and etc. True it's the public sheep's perogitive to summon LE if they see a weapon and want to freak however a relaxed opps and a wink will likely avoid that in all but the most rabit anti's while if I see someone obviously nervus with a weapon I go on alert and start lookng real close at their actions --- conceled or not as we are an open carry state.
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Old February 9, 2006, 05:16 PM   #61
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RsqVet

+ 1
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Old February 10, 2006, 12:03 AM   #62
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maze

NSCALE do yourself a favor, leave the gun home,or on the glove compartmetn of your car if allowed with no CCW in your state and get a can of maze to carry instead.
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Old February 10, 2006, 08:58 AM   #63
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My apologies, this is REALLY long, but I think it definitively answers the question about carrying in a post office or courthouse or other federal facility.



§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities


Release date: 2005-08-03

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.
(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.




Looks to me like, unless other law makes it unlawful (like state law), it's OK to carry in a federal facility, provided you are doing it lawfully according to the state and local laws.

Furthermore, if there's no sign, you can't be federally convicted (at least not federally) even if you are statewise-unlawfully carrying in same facility. If it's against state law you might be able to be convicted by the state.

My post office does not have any such sign at the entrance to the area where the PO boxes are. I haven't checked the parking lot yet, but I will, and If I see no sign, I'm clean, federally, to go pick my mail armed. I haven't yet checked in the part of the office where the clerks reside.

I don't think Florida specifically prohibits carry in federal facilities. The state defers to federal law by saying "..or anywhere prohibited by federal law" or something like that. I will check and report in my next post on this thread.

My apologies for the length, but that's the whole law. And I don't know how it's going to format on the board, so it might be hard to read what paragraph is what.
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Old February 10, 2006, 09:54 AM   #64
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ok, and for those in Florida....


"
(12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any career center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083."



So there it is.

Looks like "any courthouse or courtroom" would include federal ones. But no mention of any other federal property, except to defer to federal law.

So, at least in Florida, my read is you can carry concealed onto any federal property that isn't a courtHOUSE or courtROOM (as opposed to courtPARKING LOT), including the post office. Note the absence of any mention of any banks.

I can't find any firearms related state laws here related to banks, so looks like it's OK to carry there, too.

When I renewed my license, I was sent, along with it, an warning (along with a printed copy of all the firearms laws) that it was illegal to carry in a state park. I can't find that law online.

Oddly, I DO find online that it's illegal to carry any firearm of any kind in any National Forest except during hunting season or except properly encased on a state road. There is an exception by "permit", but it doesn't say that that permit is the same as your CCWL.

But aside from that one oddity, it seems clear to me that, particularly if there are no signs present, ANY parking lot is fine, including a federal parking lot, and ANY place not described above is fine so long as it's not a courtroom or courthouse.

My question is (just for curiosity, since I rarely take this route), since I think the Everglades is a national forest (somebody correct me if I"m wrong), and since the road from the east to west coast that cuts across it used to be SR84 but is now I-75, what kind of troubles am I going to have if I use that road while armed? If I get time I might call the FHP and ask them if it's still SR84 for these purposes.




Now, given all the stuff I presented in this and my last post, if I get to one of these can-carry places and I get a hard time from an official there (which I should never do if I'm concealing properly), I am NOT GOING TO ARGUE THE POINT. The smart thing to do is apologize, introduce myself, thus getting their name, then leave. After which I'll find out just exactly who's in charge and ask THEM what's what. If that differs from my experience, I'll ask them to inform their staff of the correct thinking.

You would be surprised how well this works. Communication within organizations is like the game of telephone. The guy you talk to in the lobby is hearing the rules repeated to him for maybe the 4th or 6th time. They're likely to have evolved. If you are stonewalled by him, then start at the top.

The man in charge (or, more correctly, his secretary) will almost always hear out your complaint. They'll refer it back to the same people you were stonewalled by earlier, but this time it's from the boss. You'll get called back and you will get results. Oh, and be polite and businesslike when you call. Sounding rabid and sarcastic gets you zilch.

I've done this several times, and it WORKS. Walgreen's. Jefferson-Ward. Comcast (their customer service is the WORST stonewall you'll ever face). Broward County Sheriff (They weren't stonewalling. They just can't know every single little law and I was getting bad advice. A call to Florida's Attorney General cleared everything up).

Failing that, I'll go elsewhere if possible. If not, I'll just not carry there.
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Old February 10, 2006, 10:35 AM   #65
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Getting back to topic @ hand

Re-focusing on the topic at hand here:

The answer is No. I do not wait for people around me to go away before I reach over and put my weapon on my person from the vehicle's glove box.

The only reason it is in the glove box in the first place - is usually because I am going to work or someplace where weapons are restricted in my state: Schools, Courthouses, workplace (if they specifically mention it in employee handbook).

And since I have a CC permit, and Open Carry is legal in VA, I have no problems moving my weapon from one location to another. If someone sees me - I smile at them.

I have so far done this quite often - at least once a week - there were SUV's next to me with a good vantage point on my car, people walking around and behind the car as I moved from box to hip, and one time there were 2 police cars 2 parking spaces away as I moved my weapon.

No issues whatsoever. Maybe I am subtle - but unless people look carefully at what you are doing in your car (Most folks do not care) - the sheepies will never know.
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Old February 10, 2006, 11:01 AM   #66
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they don't see what they see

In general, people do not "see" a gun even when someone is printing. If you reach into your waistband and pull out your gun in its holster, and put it in its lockbox or whatever, nobody but nobody is going to pay the slightest bit of attention.

The question stems from the "neon sign effect"...that irrational belief that once you are carrying concealed, EVERYBODY is more aware of YOU and is watching you. It just isn't so. We are trained in this society (especially in cities) NOT to be too observant of others. Those of us who carry for self defense are hopefully always in "condition yellow", but face it, others around us are just not.

This is just not an issue to worry about.

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Old February 10, 2006, 11:35 AM   #67
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Quote:
In general, people do not "see" a gun even when someone is printing. If you reach into your waistband and pull out your gun in its holster, and put it in its lockbox or whatever, nobody but nobody is going to pay the slightest bit of attention.

The question stems from the "neon sign effect"...that irrational belief that once you are carrying concealed, EVERYBODY is more aware of YOU and is watching you. It just isn't so. We are trained in this society (especially in cities) NOT to be too observant of others. Those of us who carry for self defense are hopefully always in "condition yellow", but face it, others around us are just not.

This is just not an issue to worry about.

Springmom
I know what you mean. We have something to hide and are hence more alert, others do not.
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Old February 10, 2006, 06:37 PM   #68
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Well now that we're re-focused on the topic at hand let me quote Duxman
Quote:
The only reason it is in the glove box in the first place - is usually because I am going to work or someplace where weapons are restricted in my state: Schools, Courthouses
Oops, we're back on that topic again!
Quote:
And since I have a CC permit, and Open Carry is legal in VA, I have no problems moving my weapon from one location to another. If someone sees me - I smile at them.
I have a CCW permit and open carry is NOT legal in NY, I do have problems moving my weapon from one location to another. If someone sees me- there is a very good chance that I will have a half dozen cops pointing their guns at me in a matter of minutes!
Quote:
In general, people do not "see" a gun even when someone is printing. If you reach into your waistband and pull out your gun in its holster, and put it in its lockbox or whatever, nobody but nobody is going to pay the slightest bit of attention. This is just not an issue to worry about.
Springmom
Maybe not in your neck of the woods but it sure as hell is in mine! You guys and gals just don't get it. New York State is not a gun friendly state! In NYC where it is almost impossible to get a CCW permit and is very difficult to obtain a permit to simply possess a handgun in your home or place of business. If one is fortunate enough to get a PREMISE LICENSE and wants to go to the firing range they need to ask permission up to one month in advance and maybe they'll be allowed to take their handgun to the range on a specific date and only on that date.
Quote:
PREMISE LICENSE: IS A RESTRICTED TYPE OF LICENSE. It is issued for your RESIDENCE or BUSINESS. The Licensee may possess a handgun ONLY on the premises of the address indicated on the front of the license. Requests to remove the firearm for the purpose of practicing at an authorized New York State Range must be made in writing one month PRIOR to the desired date and must be AUTHORIZED, IN WRITING, BY THE COMMANDING OFFICER, LICENSE DIVISION.
Can you imagine? Having to ask permission one month before you want to go to the range? Thank God I don't live in NYC. But read this link and you'll get an idea of how the law works in this state.
http://www.handguncontrolinc.org/nyc_permits.htm
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Old February 10, 2006, 10:28 PM   #69
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carrying without a permit

nscale: I think you'd better be careful. Watch out for some LEO seeing your carrying and checking to see if you've got a permit. In my sate carry permits are few and far between (I have one..yipee!) so not too many people are authorized to carry, and I know guys who just have "sportsmen" permits which are house, range, and hunting pistol permits. What the guys do is join a private 24 hour range. State law states you may carry your gun on you concealed and loaded to the range or to a hunting destination. If they get caught they show their sportsmen permit and their range key and membership card. Now granted you can't be 100 miles headed in the opposite direction of the range, but it covers guys for a wider range of having the gun on them without a carry. Now I'm not saying I condone this, but I do agree its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, so I thought it might help.
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Old February 10, 2006, 10:28 PM   #70
LICCW
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carrying without a permit

nscale: I think you'd better be careful. Watch out for some LEO seeing your carrying and checking to see if you've got a permit. In my sate carry permits are few and far between (I have one..yipee!) so not too many people are authorized to carry, and I know guys who just have "sportsmen" permits which are house, range, and hunting pistol permits. What the guys do is join a private 24 hour range. State law states you may carry your gun on you concealed and loaded to the range or to a hunting destination. If they get caught they show their sportsmen permit and their range key and membership card. Now granted you can't be 100 miles headed in the opposite direction of the range, but it covers guys for a wider range of having the gun on them without a carry. Now I'm not saying I condone this, but I do agree its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, so I thought it might help.
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Old February 11, 2006, 01:00 PM   #71
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you can fix this, nscale

In order for you to be denied a permit, you must be in default on your student loans. That implies that you quit paying on them altogether. If you want to legalize your status, you can work with your lender and get some sort of consolidation, refinancing, repayment plan, or even debt forgiveness if you are disabled. You do not have to pay off the whole thing before you can get your CHL.

Do yourself a favor and deal with this. Your CHL is not the only thing that wil be impacted by this; the state of Texas is hooking student loans and "deadbeat parent" issues to a number of things. I would expect, although I am guessing, that one of these days driver's licenses will also be linked to these issues.

You can do it. They will work with you, and once you are no longer "in default" you can get legal. Go for it!!!!

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Old February 12, 2006, 02:34 PM   #72
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Quote:
Your CHL is not the only thing that will be impacted by this; the state of Texas is hooking student loans and "deadbeat parent" issues to a number of things. I would expect, although I am guessing, that one of these days driver's licenses will also be linked to these issues.
They are already doing it in New York! An acquaintance had his tax return withheld because he was "default on his student loans". Others have been known to be arrested as "deadbeat dads" when they went to renew their drivers license.

As far as I'm concerned, they owe the money they should pay it. I pay my bills so should they. My daughter has been paying off a $60,000 student loan (6 years of college) for many years now and is very close to being done.
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Old February 13, 2006, 08:35 PM   #73
Tonyny
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Florida...

"So, at least in Florida, my read is you can carry concealed onto any federal property that isn't a courtHOUSE or courtROOM (as opposed to courtPARKING LOT), including the post office. Note the absence of any mention of any banks."

I thought so to and used to carry in them untill I asked a local cop who said its a no-no to carry in the post office. So I now leave the gun in the car for the few minutes I'm in there. Let someone else be the TEST case.
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