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Old January 25, 2006, 06:46 PM   #26
EBF
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He said off of Bruce B Downs (30th St).

I'm guessing somewhere between Bearss and Busch. I could be wrong, just a shot in the dark.

Not a real "bad" area I don't think.....USF takes up a big chunk on the east side of that area.......and there's some pretty crappy areas on the west side, near the V.A and university mall.
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Old January 25, 2006, 07:14 PM   #27
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Ronny, just doing something may very well have saved her life, even if you didn't shoot him. You did a lot more than many people (especially the unarmed masses that are self-centered sheeple), so for that, be proud. I generally wouldn't expose myself to possible criminal and probable civil liability for a complete stranger by taking that shot. If I tried to intervene (which I would) and subsequently became the target, THEN I would be OK with shooting the guy.
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Old January 25, 2006, 07:23 PM   #28
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Wow, tough to criticize without actually being there, but I would have been tempted to stop the guy sooner. Especially, since he was such a big guy and could have easily killed the woman with his bare hands. It's a shame he got away and will likely do this again who knows how many times. It's good you and your friends did not get hurt, but now he knows where they live and might think you live there.
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Old January 25, 2006, 07:32 PM   #29
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Ronny,

The only thing I could fault you for, is thinking that the cops were going to respond quicker then they did. Frankly, the fact that they do NOT respond quickly, is why most of us are packing.
Other than that, I think you did some quick thinking, that most likely saved the victims life, and you did not have to deal with killing someone.
Darn shame that more things don't turn out that good.
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Old January 25, 2006, 08:47 PM   #30
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She didn't even thank me she was in so much shock.
I'm confused here, what should she be thanking you for? You called 911 to report it then watched her get the heck beat out of her and almost killed.
I tend to agree with Pointer's view on this one.

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Old January 25, 2006, 09:56 PM   #31
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Ronny I think you did exactly right with the situation you were in. You did not know these people and only leaned that the 300 lb nutcase was a sexual pred after the incident. What if this creep that you almost took out was her husband..... And she sues you for wrongful death even if he was beating Marching through Georgia on her head. FMPOV he did not act like your typical sex pred more like a berzerk boyfriend during a domestic distrubance.

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Old January 25, 2006, 10:29 PM   #32
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You did not know these people and only leaned that the 300 lb nutcase was a sexual pred after the incident.
I think it was a safe guess that he was not the husband when she bailed from the SECOND story window.
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Old January 25, 2006, 10:32 PM   #33
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I'm confused here, what should she be thanking you for? You called 911 to report it then watched her get the heck beat out of her and almost killed.
I tend to agree with Pointer's view on this one.
Victims tend to be thankful to the strangers who call the police for them when they are unable to themselves.

But you're right, I could've done better. I had an ally with an edged weapon that I could've set upon the BG. I could've approached the BG from the side and shot him point blank.

I'm hoping that by sharing this, others may analyze how they would respond to this real life crisis and do better than I did. Already it seems, some would respond the way I did, and others would have pulled the trigger sooner.

Quote:
I'm don't mean you must shoot him...
I mean you must do SOMETHING...
If shooting him is REQUIRED then shoot him...
I called the police, got his attention and endangered my friend and her boyfriend in their own apartment. If I were an LEO, I'd have done a lot more a lot better. As it was, I was just an average man returning home from Church. But yes, Pointer, I've thought long and hard about the things you bring up and more ever since that night.

Also once again, I don't feel comfortable releasing the name of the apartment complex because it might have legal consequences that I really don't want to deal with. It was a off of 30th towards the University.
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Old January 25, 2006, 11:21 PM   #34
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Two guys... one with a knife and one with a gun, could VERY likely have ended the assault on the woman much sooner simply by "intimidation" and at least delay the beating until "backup" arrives... LEO's do this everyday!
Okay... suppose he and his friend's boyfriend had approached the BG with gun and knife drawn. BG pulls a knife out of his pocket and threatens to slit her throat. Now you've got a hostage situation, no training to deal with it, no good shot, and minutes before the police get there. Good luck.
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Old January 25, 2006, 11:52 PM   #35
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Tyme

I truly don't mean to argue for arguments sake...

But "supposing" the perp might do something and seeing him do something are very different things...

The perp "coulda" pulled the knife and cut the woman up while "we" were standing in the doorway watching and doing nothing at all...

Any delaying action or distraction or intimidation or threat to the perp, has at least the effect of doing more than watching the crime take place...

According to Ronny the victim had asked for help...

Ronny Again, I repeat, DO NOT LET this screw up your head.
You are not a bad person because you reacted this way under stress...

NO ONE can know ahead of time what they will do under stress...
BUT you can go over this and many other scenarios until you are pretty confident that you will respond in a more effective manner.

I once went completely "blank" for what seemed like an eternity, when a guy was choking on his steak and I suddenly forgot how to do the Heimlich maneuver on a very over weight man... The reason? I had had no previous experience with this situation and had not pondered or visualized the scenario in my mind beforehand...

DO NOT LET this eat at you... you will do better the next time... and anything you can do to interfere with the criminal, is better than being a bystanding witness...

I'm sure the victim is glad to be alive and as NavyLT said if you can walk away from it... you did alright.

Last edited by Pointer; January 27, 2006 at 08:04 PM.
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Old January 26, 2006, 09:52 AM   #36
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Ronny, as I said before, you did just fine. You found yourself in a typical unexpected scenario, and you discovered it requires, instant assessment, reaction, re-assessment, reaction, and so on. In fact, I would say you did an outstanding job, considering you aren't a trained LEO.

For those opinioning you should have shot the badguy and making chest beating statements like "defend the weak and downtrodden", I'll say this.

First, better check your CCW and use of force statutes. I can assure you nothing in there authorizes you to be a part-time-when-you-feel-like-it unsworn LEO, vigilante, or superhero.

Also, when I hear some guy (including LEOs) making these "kill em' all" statements, it tells me they haven't BTDT, and are just running their mouths. I don't know a LEO who has looked through the sights at another human being with pressure on the trigger faced with the decision, who talks this way.

The kid's table is over there, let the grown ups talk...
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Old January 26, 2006, 10:14 AM   #37
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You did what you did, and I say WELL DONE!!!!
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Old January 26, 2006, 12:58 PM   #38
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Not everyone was suggesting to shoot the person, just to try to stop the assult on the woman instead of watching it. Times change for good and bad and the reactions of many here clearly display such a change. Wether you had a handgun or not I can not imagin not doing something, it shows how weak we're becoming as a civilization and many condon it as normal today. I know there are still real men out there, they're just getting harder to find. This may offend some that fall into this catagory, but just call mom and vent.

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Old January 27, 2006, 12:36 AM   #39
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Kennyb

+1


I musta missed those posts that were advocating macho-kill-em-all stuff...

I agree with you... it seems that selfish attitudes prevail in these modern times.

Since when is it UNACCEPTIBLE to defend the weak and downtrodden?

Is self-preservation all there is in the hearts of our fellow men?

Selfishness is the foundation of everything liberal and the "Big City", New York mentality of watching a crime take place, and "not getting involved", has spread even into "our" ranks.

It is the same selfishness that "allows" them to go about their lives blindly ignoring the torture and murder and tyrannical treatment of innocents in foreign lands. "It's over there... it has nothing to do with me..."

And then when someone does want to step in to help "they" get upset and call him the terrorist and dictator.

Quote:
making chest beating statements like "defend the weak and downtrodden",
God help us... It's a cinch that NDTerminator won't help us and speaking of "chest beating", he is probably a "terminator" in name only.
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Old January 27, 2006, 12:47 AM   #40
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Discretion is the better part of valor.
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Old January 27, 2006, 06:02 PM   #41
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Its easy to say 'I'd have shot him.' But you never really know how you'll react or what you'll do until you're pointing a gun at another human being and trying to decide weather or not the treat is great enough to take away all he's got and all he's ever going to have.
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Old January 27, 2006, 06:48 PM   #42
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Its easy to say 'I'd have shot him.' But you never really know how you'll react or what you'll do until you're pointing a gun at another human being and trying to decide weather or not the treat is great enough to take away all he's got and all he's ever going to have.
Agreed, 100%.

And THAT is the reasoning behind my earlier post.

Good guys often think of this very fact--the reason that we ARE the good guys is our reluctance to do anything that will cause pain, suffering or deprivation to our fellow man, no matter how reprehensible that fellow man might be.

This reflexive act is the normal state of affairs for the normal human being. Unfortunately, it is also the state of affairs--and of mind--that will more than likely get the good guys hurt or killed.

It is no fault at all of the poster that he hesitated at the moment of truth, when a deadly force situation unfolded right in front of him. Blame instead the civilized manner in which we are raised, and where the majority of us adhere to the tenets of our upbringings, which advocate compassion and kindness.

To be effective and prepared for self defense--or the defense of others--that inbred compassion must be modified; the hesitance MUST be eliminated, and the will to cause harm or to kill must be ingrained. This is the primary reason that the armed services are so hard on the troops in basic training/boot camp--because killing is the most repugnant thing to us--at least the civilized ones.

You must learn to recognize when the moment of truth arrives; learn the difference between shoot and no-shoot and be able to apply sound judgement.

And when the moment of truth arrives, you must be sure in your movements and your decision. You must be willing to carry through and complete the action if need be, without hesitation or second guessing--or, like GySgt Hartman (Full Metal Jacket) said, you will be a DEAD good guy--and then you will be in a world of (you know what) because GOOD GUYS SHOULD NOT DIE WITHOUT PERMISSION!!!

In conclusion, the original poster should NOT be faulted for his actions in any way. He stood forth to meet the challenge, and assisted in the best way that he was capable of doing at the time.

Ronny, as the saying goes, you'll do to ride the river with. If you're ever out this way (Washington State) hook up with me, and I'll hoist a cold one with you. (Mine will have to be root beer, because I don't drink alcohol. ) Muy hombre, vaquero. Muy hombre.
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Old January 27, 2006, 08:24 PM   #43
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Its easy to say 'I'd have shot him.'
It's a good thing nobody said that in this thread!!

Quote:
we ARE the good guys is our reluctance to do anything that will cause pain, suffering or deprivation to our fellow man, no matter how reprehensible that fellow man might be.
That "piece of work" hardly qualifies for my compassion when there is another of my "fellows" getting her face bashed in...

The choice is clear to me... even if it seems "warm" and a little "fuzzy" to you.

Quote:
Discretion is the better part of valor.
This a platitude and it is cliche. It also doesn't fit into anything that has been said in this thread. Perhaps you could elaborate... a little?
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Old January 27, 2006, 09:39 PM   #44
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Blame instead the civilized manner in which we are raised, and where the majority of us adhere to the tenets of our upbringings, which advocate compassion and kindness.
It is no longer a civilized manner today but a politically correct one. Where is it civilized to not react and help the helpless in need, but rather give the first consideration of compassion and kindness to the agressor.
When I read such garbage it makes sick.

Quote:
You must learn to recognize when the moment of truth arrives; learn the difference between shoot and no-shoot and be able to apply sound judgement.
At one time this was covered in our upbringing. People knew right from wrong, it was taught by their parents, family members, schools etc. They didn't need to read it in a book midway through life before being able to make a sound judgement. My children will leave my home with this ability when the time comes, actually the time is here and I have doubt of their outcome.

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Old January 27, 2006, 11:02 PM   #45
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cut him some slack

ok anyone that criticizes our hero is just being unreasonable. he did what he thought was right, without running the possiblity of sharing a jail cell with the people like the attacker. remember everyone, we live in a society that loves to punish people for brandishing a gun, or even using it, in ANY situation. there have been many cases where cops have discarged their firearms to save lives, only to be tied up in court facing civil charges, and having their savings wiped out paying legal costs, or facing criminal charges. remember con-air, when the hero went to jail, cause he killed a scum bag in selfdefense, well that stuff does happen, good hoenst people do go to jail doing the right thing. i think if i was in the same situation, i would have done the same thing, and the only reason i wouldnt have done more is because i would be afraid of some wacko judge throwing the book at me cause i didnt "use enough restraint". this country is full of peace-loving hippies that think all you have to do to solve your problems is "talk it out", which is true bull$h**. i will be honest i would have loved to shoot the bastard, a rapist, who would have killed some poor defensless woman, the world would be better off with out him. but you can never forget our wonderful justice system, that might burn you for doint the right thing.

here is a question, what if you shoot him in the knee once he got up and said "shoot me Motherfu**er"? or shoot him in the lower leg area, to prevent him from running off, or maybe killing the poor woman? i would have considered a leg shoot, now after thinking it over.

anyway good thread and thanks for sharing
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Old January 28, 2006, 12:03 AM   #46
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cut him some slack
Ronny my comments are in response to todays civilization, I hope you don't think I'm singling you out. I'm sure you did what you thought was best at the time and it may have been, but even you are having second thoughts of your actions. Some here wouldn't have even did what you have, and yet others would still be waiting for the response from Dear Abby to see what they should do.

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Old January 28, 2006, 12:00 PM   #47
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Half-fast-Assassin... er uh, Half-price

We do not have to go to EXTREMES to help the victim who's getting her face caved in...

We don't have to go to jail or get sued...

As I said, we only have to do SOMETHING or anything to get the BG to stop beating on her...

IF in the event the BG turns his attentions to us...

We can:

1. Run around a parked car...

2. Hide inside and close the apartment door...

3. Kick him in the 'nads...

4. Or shoot the s.o.b. in the 'nads...

5. Or kill him...

ALL of the above options are SELF-DEFENSE!! or third-
party-defense, and even in Liberal City you won't go to jail for self-defense.

In the MEANTIME we have STOPPED the beating of the victim, (Perhaps saving her life.) at least, long enough for backup to arrive...


BTW, I think you should change your "handle"...

Half-Fast is cooler than Half-Price and a whole lot better than Half-Baked.

Jus' kiddin'
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Old January 28, 2006, 01:23 PM   #48
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I hate to hear that stuff like that happens

its sad that we have such evil in our world. we need to shoot that guys nuts off.
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Old January 31, 2006, 12:23 PM   #49
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Ronny,

Thanks for posting your story. You've given us all much on which to ponder.

I hope I never have an encounter such as yours.

Regards,
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Old January 31, 2006, 08:45 PM   #50
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I think Ronny did okay. Not perfect, but he had enough sense to pull his gun--I've read of folks who carry who don't when needed--and to push his so-called friend--who was escalating an already bad situation--to the periphery. I *hope* I would have pulled my gun rather than my cellphone if in his situation. Not necessarily pulled and fired, but pulled and ready. And Ronny did stop the guy from pounding the woman. Not immediately, true, but the guy stopped when he turned toward Ronny and then fled when he saw the gun. I'd grade Ronny's performance as a B. Not an F or an A, but better than the average I've read and heard about.

The ongoing issue, as I see it, is that most of us are taken by surprise by these situations. Classic Condition White. How many of us walk around in Condition Yellow as we should? Sadly, habit leaves most of us (including me) in Condition White most of the time.

Ronny, thanks for posting. For me, the lesson learned is to practice more situational awareness and mental "what if" scenarios. When I used to ride motorcycles, I constantly practiced three mental scenarios:

1) Escape routes. All I needed was an opening the size of a common doorway to squirt through in case someone in a car or truck cut me off or if there was road debris ahead. That mental drill alone saved me several times.

2) Car wheels moving. Forward, backward, left, right, it doesn't matter--if a car is waiting to pull into traffic and those front wheels are moving, the driver is thinking more about where he wants to go than about you. I dodged a few drivers who suddenly pulled out in front of me, because I was prepared.

3) Vehicles with stuff strapped to the outside. Things fall off. On a motorcycle, if you hit something, you'll probably lose. Never ride behind a vehicle with stuff strapped to the outside.

I suggest it's a good idea to figure out a couple of self-defense scenarios--"What if such-and-such happens? What would I do?"--when you go places. It's difficult to do at first, but it becomes second-nature when you practice it enough. You might still be caught by surprise, but not AS surprised.
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