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Old January 30, 2006, 10:30 AM   #51
springmom
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now then; part 2

No, this is not a factual update: apart from the fact that youngest son did look at mug shots late last week, no news so far.

No, this is a thank you to all of you who sent best wishes and prayers, both in public on the forum and in private emails and messages. Y'all are da bomb, as youngest son would say.

It is also to now tie this back to tactics and training. Given that this is a situation in which anybody could find themselves, but looking at it as if it were YOU and YOU WERE CARRYING (so that takes "what should Youngest Son have done" off the table for this) what, seriously, would you have done?

Keep in mind: this is a well-lighted, open place, surrounded by single-family houses. (I emphasize that because you are therefore going to have to be VERY careful IF you choose to shoot.) To the north/northeast lies a large culvert/gulch/bayou, pretty deep, because it has a bridge OVER it. This is where the young lady in question ran to. It was late evening, but 10:30 at night is not an outrageous time for people to be out on foot, especially in a residential neighborhood.

Sticking with the scenario as it happened, put yourself in there (you may add dogs if that is why you would have been out at that time of night, and the person with you might be your spouse or a lady friend). What would you do?

Springmom
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Last edited by springmom; January 30, 2006 at 10:31 AM. Reason: to add a close parenthesis
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Old January 30, 2006, 02:08 PM   #52
Harley Quinn
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Springmom

Hi,
Unfortunatly as of late you are a victim, not you personally but your sons and that then includes you. For you may be having a tougher time with this then they are.
Since what has happened to the vehicle is a problem, but it is a vehicle and over that issue I am not sure you can shoot persons, unless for a reason you put yourself in harms way.

I think you are basically doing what you can regarding the beating and your son need's to understand that he is not alone. It happens all the time in this country, one of the big problems that it is always happening to someone else until it happens to you.

You live in Texas yet you call the LEO a Constable? Do you have Constable's in Texas? Does he respond to that name, or is it just a preference on your part? Just curious on that term.

Good luck, remember if you do take action it can get extremly worse for you and yours. That sounds weird but if you can let it go it will be better for all.
Tighten up on security and try not to become overwrought.
Be careful of what you say or do on the net and around your neighborhood.

Again remember it is happening to you at this point and time, it happens to thousands of people daily in America. You are not alone. Sad but true.

HQ
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Old January 30, 2006, 02:34 PM   #53
Derius_T
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Trip20 wrote:

Quote:
America is full of breeders, parents are a minority.
One of the best statements I've read in a long time.....and the saddest.
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Old January 30, 2006, 05:37 PM   #54
springmom
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Hi, Harley

In Texas, counties have sheriffs. But larger counties, at least, have constables as well. This creates some interesting "turf" problems, that I've written about already on this thread.

FYI, in Texas one can shoot to protect property, or if one fears that one will not be able to get that property back if one lets it be stolen. (I suspect, but do not know for sure, that this is a legacy from the old "cattle rustling" days...IOW, if a steer was stolen and re-branded, it could be difficult to prove it was yours.) I would not be inclined to do this, certainly not with my home defense ammunition.

FWIW, I think there is a mindset of "victim" that one can choose to reject. These things have happened to him, but that boy is no victim. He made good judgements at the time as to how to protect himself, and we've told him that we are very proud of him (as we are). Hope that makes sense: but my sig line is a statement of intent and mindset, not a blindly foolish statement that nothing bad can happen to me.

Springmom
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Old January 30, 2006, 05:44 PM   #55
exar
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springmom

Without being in the actual scenario, it is really hard to tell what I would really do but I can try. I am a very cautious person in public which is why I even have a ccw. I am also very aware of the saftey of friends and loved ones around me. Being in a park with my girlfriend at 10:30pm, no matter how well lit will put me at an advanced level of awareness ( I have taken females out to the park late at night, so I am familiar with that aspect of the situation. I definitley would notice an aggressive looking pack of males approaching. Keeping with your sons scenario, if the person made any threatening remarks or gestures at a distance, or even was walking a path that would bring them by me, my defense level increases even more so. If he yelled something like "Hey white boy", I would acknowledge them and ask them what they wanted from a reasonable distance. If there was no response or they continued toward me I would assume a firm and confident posture and tell them that "I don't want any trouble and you need to leave me alone now". I will assume the role of your son and say that they are going to attack me. I would reach for my .38 special, point it directly at the priority target, and if this was not enough of a deterrent I would fire at the ground,if possible,for a warning. If I thought for 1ms that there was no time for a warning and my girl's life or mine was endangered then I would not hesitate to fire directly at the assailant for a stopping shot, be it lethal or non.
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Old January 30, 2006, 05:48 PM   #56
gdeal
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Guns and the Law

I like California State Laws: U can only shoot to protect life NOT property. I wouldn't want to end somebody's life over a material possesion like a TV. But the laws in TX to hold off cattle rustling sense to me. And when U think about it, cattle is life, not really a material possesion. Hmm... I wonder if I would be allowed to shoot someone that was going to harm my dogs.
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Old January 30, 2006, 08:41 PM   #57
Glockamolie
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Every county (in Texas, at least) is broken down into precincts. Each precinct has a Constable, and they in turn have Deputy Constables, like a Sheriff would have. This goes back many, many years to a time where a single county would be too much ground for a Sheriff to cover, so they needed other regional agencies in the county. Smaller Constable departments generally serve civil papers and may do other law enforcement duties, but maybe not a whole lot of patrol or traffic. In larger counties, a Constable's Department may be huge, much as Pct 5 in Harris County. No matter their particular role in the county they serve, they are all sworn peace officers with equal powers of any other peace officer in the state. If you live in an unincorporated area of a county, either the Sheriff of that county or the Constable of that precinct has (overlapping) jurisdiction. Many subdivisions have it established that the Constable is on a contract and is the primary responder.
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Old January 30, 2006, 09:07 PM   #58
stephen426
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exar,

Please don't take this response as a personal attack but rather as a critique of how you would have handled the situation. When you are dealing with a pack of thugs, the best thing is to leave if possible. You do not know if these trouble makers are armed (and we found out later that they were). You might think you are a tough guy but when you are out numbered and dealing with an unknown enemy (in this case unknown enemies).

Say you whip out your .38 special (note that no threat has yet been made and you are already breaking the breaking the law by brandishing a firearm). They can then say that you threatened them and shoot you in self defense. How many rounds does your .38 special hold? How many speed loaders do you carry? How good of a shot do you think you are? Do you really think you can scare down a pack of thugs with your gun? I'm almost willing to bet that they would taunt you and dare you to shoot them. Then any of them that are armed would draw their weapons and you would go down in a hail of bullets. You might be a lion but even a lion can get taken down by a pack of hyenas. I'm sorry but I feel you are going to get yourself killed that way. You have no backup, you are outnumbered, and you don't know your enemy. It is not a good situation.

Although this may be a blow to your pride, but the best response is to get the heck out of Dodge when you see these unsavory characters. It might be a blow to your pride, but it is way better than multiple blows to your body. Imagine if you decided to stay and be a tough guy. Say they beat the crap out of you and leave you in a heap and then proceed to rape your female companion. Your poor decision has just caused her to get raped. If those guys started chasing you, then they give you no chose but to fight. I would make as much noise as possible to attract as much attention as possible. SpringMom said there are houses nearby so the neighbors might call the cops. They might not get there right away (maybe they will since all this crap has been happening lately) but at least help should be on the way should you get the crap beat out of you and need medical attention. My point is if you leave before they get that close, you will have a head start and will be able to read their intent much sooner than if you wait around.

Good luck and I hope this post at least opens your eyes to any short comings your plan may have had.
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Old January 31, 2006, 03:48 AM   #59
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Exar- never escalate the level of violence in a situation. No offence but your remarks lead me to believe that you have never really spent much time in a "bad" neighborhood. I have. Where I live now used to be alot better and its getting kinda bad, but its still one of the better places that Ive lived and let me tell you -

"I would assume a firm and confident posture and tell them that "I don't want any trouble and you need to leave me alone now". I will assume the role of your son and say that they are going to attack me. I would reach for my .38 special, point it directly at the priority target, and if this was not enough of a deterrent I would fire at the ground,if possible,for a warning."

Do this and all your gonna do is look sound and act SCARED, you are going to escalated the level of violence and you are challanging people that dont back down from challanges from people weaker than them. Three huge mistakes in an already dangerous situation.

Springmom, no offence this used to be a nice neighborhood, but this is for exars sake, because if he ever dose what he said he would do he will likely end up dead.

If you are going to go to the park at night, have the car pointed at the street in the right direction and stay as close to the car as possible. If a group that set off your radar enter your proximity and begin to walk twords you at night in the park, you leave. Immediatly. They can take you, they know they can take you. Thats why they travel in groups. If you are scared of them they will know it, you cant hide it even if you think you can.

If you dont have it in you to brutalise another human to the point of death then you arent at their level and they will know that too.

Be repectfull; never insult anyone in the group. Dangerous people aquire things through violence, disrepect and they will use violence to get that respect back.

In a situation where you are approached/surrounded by a gang of 2+ with or without a gun its pretty much up to them if you live or die. Alot of it is street sense, My advice to exar: stay home at night. Seriously.

Last edited by gac009; January 31, 2006 at 04:25 AM.
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Old January 31, 2006, 10:54 AM   #60
exar
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sorry if I gave an incorrect idea to anyone. I was trying to place myself in springmoms' sons' shoes. Everyone is correct when they say to try and leave immediately, which is what I personally would recommend and DO. I was only placing myself in the boys position where an attack is unavoidable, and you better believe if i was being assaulted that i wouldn't care how scared I might look (and probably would be if i was being attacked), I would still reach for the .38 and defend myself. If you are not willing to draw your weapon in defense, then there is no point in carrying one. Once again, sorry if i upset anyone but springmom was asking for a specific scenario and i tried to give her an idea of what someone else might do in an UNAVOIDABLE attack. BTW Memphis, Knoxville, and Louisville are my old homes and they can get rough. I'm not blind to the reality of situations and that is why i carry in the first place. If you were raised in Memphis being the only white kid on your block then you might understand where i come from.
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