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Old January 23, 2006, 08:36 PM   #1
Jibaholic
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How good of a shot are most BG's?

Hiya,

I've just completed my basic pistol course so I'm still very green! One thing that I learned is that it takes a surprising amount of skill even to hit a target 15 feet away. The experienced shots (people from other states taking the course to get a Mass. permit) were fast and accurate. Us beginners were not.

How many shots have most BG's even fired? 50? 100? Are there any that would be considered good shots?
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Old January 23, 2006, 08:49 PM   #2
American4guns
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I'm not sure how you would go about deciding if the BG is a good shot or not unless he shoots you.I preferto think that hes as good as i am and i'm not going to give him the chance to get his gun out if it is'nt already.If the BG is on me already,i submit to whatever it is he wants.I would draw my weapon only and i mean only if i had a serious chance of drawing and firing with extreme accuracy.You could'nt know the abilty of a stranger.I'm sure there are some BG's out there that have had plenty of practice.They don't do back ground checks to shoot at a range.
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Old January 23, 2006, 09:05 PM   #3
281 Quad Cam
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For the purposes of training, and mental preparation...

The bad guy is the best shot on earth, he reads shooting journals in the bathroom, and practices point shooting coins at 25 yards in the dark.

He does 800 pushups and situps a day, and can run 2 miles in 5 minutes. His idea of a vacation is attending Ranger or SEAL training.

He is armed with the very best equipment, not that he needs it. He is skilled in several martial arts, and has extensive experience with violence. He does not hesitate, he performs.

He is not recognizable, he is ordinary. He makes time in his training for fitting in, and being dismissed by his victims. He has an average, well kept wardrobe and hairstyle. He makes small-talk on elevators. He does not threaten, he does not assault. He always gets the jump on his victims before they know whats coming.

Train for him.... Than you will be ready.

God forbid it ever happens, there is absolutely no telling who it will be, and what the extent of their training will be. Train to the best of your commitment to it...... But don't ever make the mistake of deluding yourself to believe bad guys are subpar on any level. Some people make a living by preying on others, social predators. Don't mistake poor morals for poor inteligence.
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Old January 23, 2006, 09:14 PM   #4
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This is a funny question...I actually laughed. Any how, I am not sure if there is a separate school for BG's to learn to shoot. If then, we would judge the marksmanship of a BG by the destruction and such that they cause, I would have to say that they are pretty good shots...we are reminded of this point when we turn on the news and hear about another shooting and the death that resulted.
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Old January 23, 2006, 09:41 PM   #5
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Misses and accidental hits in a drive by are the wheelman's fault.
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Old January 23, 2006, 09:44 PM   #6
Recon7
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I'm a bad guy, and I am a excellent shot.
seriously, +1 to topthis, we love to worry if 9mm or .40 etc has enough stopping power, in reality, most people who get shot by bad guys seem to get hit and killed.
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Old January 23, 2006, 09:56 PM   #7
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Absolutely outstanding post, 281 Quad Cam!!!: Right on the mark!

It's been my experience that most gang bangers, using the officially established gangsta stance (gun hand above head, wrist at 45 degree angle, starboard side of the weapon skyward, legs not spread due to pants being down around his knees ), couldn't hit a bull in the a** with a bass fiddle. Their philosophy truely is, spray & pray.

Then you run into one... only one, where his brother was a SEAL and taught him a few things. It'd be my luck (and yours) to run into that only-one.

Train like 281 Quad Cam said .
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Old January 23, 2006, 09:58 PM   #8
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"For the purposes of training, and mental preparation...

The bad guy is the best shot on earth, he reads shooting journals in the bathroom, and practices point shooting coins at 25 yards in the dark.

He does 800 pushups and situps a day, and can run 2 miles in 5 minutes. His idea of a vacation is attending Ranger or SEAL training.

He is armed with the very best equipment, not that he needs it. He is skilled in several martial arts, and has extensive experience with violence. He does not hesitate, he performs.

He is not recognizable, he is ordinary. He makes time in his training for fitting in, and being dismissed by his victims. He has an average, well kept wardrobe and hairstyle. He makes small-talk on elevators. He does not threaten, he does not assault. He always gets the jump on his victims before they know whats coming.

Train for him.... Than you will be ready." 281 Quad Cam

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Old January 23, 2006, 10:04 PM   #9
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281 Quad Cam

Excellent post! I might have to print that one out and put it up in my office cube!
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Old January 23, 2006, 10:10 PM   #10
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it depends on the peson that has become bad a thug or gansta so to speak has lil experience with guns hopeing to never have to use one but to intimidate their enemys so that they will not have to use them and others who pratice with weapons with intention to are called terrorists these people have plans on killing a certian target and hopefuly getting away with it .then of course you have people who have just had enough they are ****** off at some one or something wether they have experience with guns or not thats is to be found out the hard way they could be a person with military training ,or hunter or maybe even a buissness man who has never fired a gun but never the less always keep your eyes open and be ready for anything.
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Old January 23, 2006, 10:11 PM   #11
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Most "BGs" are not very good shots. They tend to be "pray and spray" shooters.
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Old January 23, 2006, 10:35 PM   #12
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I have only run into a couple of BG's out of hundreds, that were decent shots.
Quantify how good they were, pretty hard to do. They were good enough to shoot me so I guess that's good enough. Then again I'm still here

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Old January 23, 2006, 10:38 PM   #13
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remember the DC sniper he was a BG, and a pretty good shot too.
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Old January 23, 2006, 11:03 PM   #14
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I agree with 281QC. The bad guy is at least as good as you think you are, and probably better. He's going to use ambush tactics to surprise you and put you at a time-competitive disadvantage.
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Old January 23, 2006, 11:08 PM   #15
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So, the unanimous choice is...BG's are good shots. Yes, I agree!
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Old January 23, 2006, 11:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
How good of a shot are most BG's?
Good enough to kill you.
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Old January 24, 2006, 10:29 AM   #17
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I disagree in part. I definitely think you should train for and be prepared to engage and beat the hypothetical bad guy described above. But in reality bad guys will probably be bad shots. The average cop probably shoots more often than most BGs and in all honesty the average cop is not a perticurally good marksman.
To illustrate what I’m saying, when room clearing or tactically moving through a house you should not approach a corner shoulders against the wall and move as close to the corner as possible and then spin around the edge like you see in the movies sometimes. Good tactical sources say to keep as much distance as possible between you and the corner. The reason for this is that the bad guy is probably not a good shot and you are because of all your detected training (this is assuming you are trained to be better than most, which, if you are serious about defending your life you should be). The distance makes him more likely to miss you and because you’re good the distance isn’t such a factor for you. Of course this isn’t going to mean he can’t hit you it just does a little more to help keep you from getting shot and when we’re talking about your life every little bit is important.
Train for the absolute worst and you’ll be prepared to handle almost any situation. Think of it like a professional fighter who is constantly training to fight matches against UFC pros. Then some night a punk tries to beat him up outside a bar for, lets say, looking at his girl friend the wrong way. Who’s gonna win? The guy who’s been training to beat the pros, but not only will he win he’ll walk away cracking his knuckles thinking “that was easier than I expected.”
It’s only easy and the bad guys are only bad shots in comparison to your abilities. If you aren’t prepared for the extreme you won’t be better in comparison. I think the real issue is not how good are they, it’s how much better are you.
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Old January 24, 2006, 10:45 AM   #18
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The biggest advantage the bad guy has over the good guy is his willingness to do things. The good guy has inhibitions to overcome before he can defend himself, usually, and generally speaking, the bad guy has none of these inhibitions. You could also say there is a killer instinct present.

It has been said that the average bad guy could kill someone, then go home and sleep soundly. But when a policeman is involved in a shooting, he is a mental wreck for a month. And besides that, his department suspends him for a week to make the investigation, which can't help matters.

It has also been said that the average policeman is a much better shot than his opponent and usually comes out OK in a gunfight (such things happen), yet in a place like D.C., and now also in Prince George's County, Maryland, just over the line, there are plenty of successful shooting, shall we say, every year. Not gunfights, mind you, just shootings.
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Old January 24, 2006, 10:53 AM   #19
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He doesn't have to be good; he only has to be lucky.

You have to be good. You can't count on being lucky, since if he attacks you, well, you obviously aren't having a lucky day.

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Old January 24, 2006, 10:59 AM   #20
Glenn E. Meyer
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This has been studied - damned if I can remember the source now, someone might - but it's one on police hits and BG hits in close range gun fights.

BGs hit more - one reason is that they had the element of surprise and were quite close.

It's really too complicated a question to generalize. Some departments have great records, some are crappy. There are differences in training and personnel.

Close up and it doesn't take much to hit but you do see massive fire fights with very low hits.

I wouldn't take it for granted that you are better shot than anybody, esp. if most incidents are close up.
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Old January 24, 2006, 11:00 AM   #21
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How good??

Armed and Considered Dangerous is a study by Wright and Rossi. This study was done in prisons and the interview people were long term convicts.

Among the subjects was their gun knowledge, training, and when they carried, what they carried, and how they planned to use their guns. Sources of guns and ammo, etc. A long read, but great information.
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Old January 24, 2006, 11:22 AM   #22
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criminals shooting abilities

Go to www.plusp.com for a look. John
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Old January 24, 2006, 11:33 AM   #23
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Well DTakas, you would be one of those who underestimates your opponent because of a gross generalization that simple can't be counted on to be representative of the sampling of bad guys you are dealing with in a given situation.

281 Quad Cam's point is very good. You have to assume they are excellent shots and treat the situation appropriately. As noted, they may not be good shots, but they can still be lucky shots. So the question of whether or not they are good shots is immaterial.

I think it is short sighted to base a lot of self defense-related issues on the percentages of historical events. Historical events are mutually exclusive from the event you are in. When you encounter a bad guy, it isn't that you have a 95% chance that he is a crappy shot and 5% that he is a good shot as evidenced by the large numbers of bad shot bad guys out there. At best, the odds are 50-50 that he is a good shot. Its binary and it does not matter what type a shot he is relevant to the rest of the bad guy population as you are only dealing with this guy, not the whole population. Whether or not the rest of the bad guy population is good or bad shots has no bearing on his skills. Once again, it is mutually exclusive. So at best for you, odds are 50-50 he is a good shot. At worst, he is 100% a good shot.

As a park ranger commented on grizzly attacks of hunter in our national parks, he said the incidents were quite low, something like one attack for every 250,000 hunters or hunting excursions, but when a grizzly is attacking you it is 100%. In other words, the 1 in 250k sounds good until it is you who is being chomped on by a bear, then the stats don't matter.

In following up with some of the ideas already expressed, the bad guy does not have to be a good shot. He is not encumbered with being bothered by the legal hassles of shooting a bystander. So he is free to spray and pray. As a good guy, you need to be a good shot and you do care if you hit a bystander..

If you want to put faith into the percentages and go with the notion that most bad guys are bad shots, then why not apply the percentages across the board. Chances are that at any given time, you will not be attacked by a bad guy. If you are attacked, chances are you won't have to draw your gun or won't be able to draw your gun. If you are able to draw your gun, chances are you won't have to shoot your gun. So at any given time, the odds are nearly zero that you will need to shoot your gun in self defense, so why carry a gun?

You carry a gun because even though the odds are hugely in your favor, you know that there is still the potential that you may need it. My guess is that the odds are much higher that the bad guy you encounter will be a good shot, even higher if you add in those who end up as lucky shots, than the odds of you having to deploy and shoot your gun.

And what is a good shot? The bad guy may not be a good enough shot to pass the shooting qualifications for a concealed handgun permit, but he can probably hit you 9 times out of 10 at mugging distance and mugging distance is about half the distance or less of the shortest distance used in Texas CHL shooting qualifications (which is 3 yards).
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Old January 24, 2006, 11:55 AM   #24
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281 Quad Cam, great post.

The most vital thing to remember about a BG, IMHO, is that he is indeed a Bad Guy. He has his mind set on violence, robbery, murder, ect. and is most likely experienced at it. He does not care who gets hurt or how bad, as long as its not him. He only cares about carrying out his task, with the least amount of personal risk to self. Make no mistake, this is a very dangerous mindset, and makes for a very dangerous opponent....
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Old January 24, 2006, 12:17 PM   #25
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Only a fool underestimates


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