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Old January 19, 2006, 10:38 PM   #1
Recon7
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ccw and carjacking

OK, I watched a carjacking happen live on the news a few days ago and was thinking, what if it was me in the car, and I was packing. I was thinking get out of the car, and blast him in the noodle when he starts to shift into drive. things to consider. I drive a car so overpenetration is not much of a problem, because I would be shooting downward and the bullet would travel through the passenger seat into the ground. these carjackings often end in hi speed car chases and he could crash into and injure a lot of people in the process.(that did happen in the carjacking that happened the other day-several injured) there is also the lawyers going after you, the police legally taking your car for evidense, and the blood stains in your car
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Old January 19, 2006, 11:25 PM   #2
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Just taking a guess here, but the reason deadly force is justified in a car jacking is because they all too often result in a kidnapping/murder of the victim. Once he had the car and you're outside, it's dropped to an auto theft, and deadly force is no longer justified, since your life isn't considered to be in imminent jeopardy at that point.
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Old January 20, 2006, 01:22 AM   #3
Sir William
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My old instructor used to write, Yes, but. Texas is a whole other country. THE question is, while seated and belted, can you access the CCW easily?
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Old January 20, 2006, 01:31 AM   #4
springmom
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It is that

In Texas, you could shoot if it was necessary to get your property back. Personally, if they drop me on my butt and steal the car, I would just call Lo-Jack and let them recover the car for me and save the ammunition. That's what I bought the Lo-Jack system for when I bought the car

While you can shoot somebody over them attempting to steal your property in Texas, I don't own a car that's worth somebody's life.

HOWEVER: if the little punks that have TWICE tried to steal my son's car out from in front of our house .... TWICE in a WEEK... come back for a third bite of the apple they are going to get a serious butt full of dove load if I catch 'em. So far they've cost me a new ignition switch, and they tried the other night to pry open the driver's door (lost the plastic cover over the window). Little sharks. I can only wish for a shotgun full of rock salt.....

Sorry. Thread-jack there for a minute....

I can see shooting to kill to protect innocent life, mine or someone else's. I cannot see shooting to kill to keep my car in my possession.

But that's me.

Springmom, just waiting for those punks.....
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Old January 20, 2006, 01:52 AM   #5
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If its just me, and he isn't armed, thats a whoopin, and he is an idiot.

If he is armed, and I'm alone in the truck, first thought is drive away (traffic permiting) and curbs arent a big problem. If not, second thought is, my truck is big, slow, and has a cap that makes it very easily identifiable, 911.

If one of my little cousins (no kids of my own ) is in the car, its a whole different ball game. There is no way he will take that vehicle from me while a loved one is in it.
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Old January 20, 2006, 02:07 AM   #6
Odd Job
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If the hijacker has been doing this for a while, or at least more than once, you will probably find that you are disarmed before he drives away. Unfortunately I have spoken to too many hijack victims at the hospital in Johannesburg, and out there you either get shot while seated in the car (and then thrown out onto the road) or they pull you out at gunpoint and disarm you. Often they will work in pairs, one approaching the window, the other in your opposite blindspot, covering his partner. It makes sense because then they have two drivers, one to keep the car they were cruising around in and the other to drive the hijacked one. Basically, if you turn around and there is a guy at your side window with a gun (in JHB at least), you have already lost. At best you just lost your car and gun/valuables, at worst, you get shot right there in the seat, or taken out of the car and shot. Efforts must be made in preventing the appearance of the guy at your window, rather than deciding what to do when he gets there.
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Old January 20, 2006, 09:00 AM   #7
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Been There, Done That, Got the T-Shirt...

Central Florida 1993 deliverring Pizza. Pulled into the parking spot head in at the housing projects in "bad" part of town at about 11:00PM on a Friday night. Immediately a car blocks me into the spot from behind and the passenger jumps out and runs up to my passenger side door.

This had happenned several times in the area already where the victim was being forced to drive to an ATM and get out as much cash as possible. They were then usually beaten badly and in one case the person was killed. I drove a red firebird at the time and was a very common site in the area. That Friday alone I probably drove into that complex six times. Being a white guy in a red firebird deliverring pizza made me a fairly obvious mark. The standard routine was to park, run around tothe passenger side and grab the pies, then head to the door. Anyone who watched this would know pizza guys' passenger doors are unlocked.

As soon as the car blocked me in I hit the door lock and leaned forward so I could reach my 4 cell mag light with my left hand and draw my buddy's S&W 36 with my right. (My 1911 was out getting hard chromed so I was using my buddy's loaner, what are friends for!). The goblin yanked on the passenger door once (locked) and then looked up. As soon as he looked up he was staring at the the snubby held in my right hand. I then shined the maglight right in his eyes. His hands never came into view but if they had and anything was in them I would have shot him through the window. The goblin at my door ran off, not even going back to the car he arrived in. The car then took off. I deliverred the pie to what appeared a fairly normal family for the area. The guys were never caught as far as I know.

Lessons learned.

1. Stay Aware! (I saw them coming and was able to be ready.)
2. Be Preparred! (I was armed and able to respond when required.)
3. Be Resolute! (I KNEW I would pull the trigger if I had to and I already had decided before hand what would justify my doing so.)

I still get the shakes, find myself speaking rapidly and breathing quickly to this day when I describe the incident.

One important thing, I was not going to shoot anyone to keep my car! My life was my concern. If someone THREATENS my life for my car I may choose to respond to the threat to my life, who knows if he will leave it at the car. BUT if he already has my car I am not going to let him shift into drive and then blast him. Once he has it its his. Both my cars are insured and the newer one has OnStar which works just like a lojack if needed.
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Old January 20, 2006, 09:51 AM   #8
Mr. James
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Johannesburg

Hi, Odd Job,

Had a hair-raising experience in Johannesburg in 1999. Was driving in from Middleburg and looking for the airport and got lost. With a young, pretty female colleague in the passenger seat.

Let's just say when the robots turned red, I took those signals as hortatory, not mandatory. That poor rental car took a beating, too, as I went bounding over median strips, etc. No way was I coming to a stop in the neighborhood we were in.

Finally made our way to a very nice neighborhood, and stopped a gent walking his dog to ask for directions. That was funny. At first he couldn't believe his eyes. Two stupid Yanks driving around lost in Johannesburg. He then proceeded to give the most painstaking directions out of his neighborhood and back to the airport. Seriously, he spent about thirty minutes describing each turn and landmark on the way. I think he had serious doubts we'd ever make it.
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Old January 20, 2006, 10:27 AM   #9
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Recon7,
The only way I'd do the pill to the "noodle", would be if I was already out of the car and the POS pointed his weapon anywhere near my direction.. Yes officer I was out of the car, and when he pointed the gun at me, I WAS IN FEAR OF MY LIFE!! He already had my car, but he WASN'T going to take my life too....

Best would have been him not makeing it into the car in the first place. The above was just my answer to your origional post.
Take care, shoot straight..
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Old January 20, 2006, 11:11 AM   #10
Glenn E. Meyer
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Reality intervenes to the warrior fantasy.

You use lethal force to protect yourself and others from grievous bodily harm as the first operating principle.

If you use it to protect property, you must then figure out the cost/benefits.

1. Are you making an ideological statement about society?
2. Are you really doing what is best from an economic point of view?
3. Are you just making an emotional statement?

Economically, even if the shoot is justified because of local laws, you may spend a good deal of cash to work it out with the legal system. In TX, I've heard it estimated that a good shoot may cost you $5K. An ambiguous one that might go to trial will cost you an order of magnitude more.

Protecting property in TX is not as clear cut as it seems. The property has to be such that it is not easily replaced, IIRC if it is a daytime incident. Insured cars may not be such.

Also, if one does kill someone, it is easy to be glib about it on the internet. We have clear and convincing evidence from the police literature that there are many nasty sequela to a shoot, for you and your family. Is it worth it for your car, if you are not protecting against harm? Easy to be a tough guy here.

Last, I hope folks are joking about dove shot or rock salt - they would be considered the use of lethal force. Using a firearm in a manner not intended to stop an assailant but punish them is probably not defensible in court.

I strongly suggest that if you are out of the car and can flee, just do it.

This may invoke cries of advocating a nation of cowards but life is life.
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Old January 20, 2006, 01:44 PM   #11
Odd Job
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@ Mr. James

Ja, you can get into a fair bit of trouble in Johannesburg if you take a wrong turn under the wrong circumstances: such circumstances being derived from the valuables/vehicle you may have, coupled with the location in which you find yourself. It is just as well you didn't fall foul of some hijackers because 1995-2000 was a particularly bad period for hijackings in which the driver was shot.

@ Thread

The hijacking situation got so bad in Johannesburg that guidelines were printed and distributed, detailing what the driver should do in the event that he was hijacked. Now a little background is needed before you can appreciate the logic here. Firstly, the hijacker is always armed and by the time he has drawn level with the driver's side window, or is actually right at the window, his gun is already drawn and aimed at your head. Secondly, he either takes it for granted that you are also armed, or has a plan in his mind for dealing with you in the event that you draw a weapon.
These are the guidelines (I can't remember the source or all of the guidelines, but these are the salient ones):

1) Take your hands off the wheel and lift them up in plain view of the hijacker. Do not turn the engine off.

2) If he tells you to get out of the vehicle and you are wearing a seatbelt, then you must reach with your left hand up to your right shoulder, place your left thumb under the seatbelt, draw your hand down to the seatbelt release at your left hip and release it. This is so that the hijacker can see your hand. If you move straight to your hip, this could be interpreted as a draw, and then you get shot. (Take note these are guidelines for a right-hand-drive setup).

3) When you get out of the vehicle, get your hands up and step away from the vehicle. Don't make any comments, offer money, plead for mercy, or be aggressive. Basically he will take what he wants. Follow instructions.

4) If you have a firearm and it is not discovered by the hijacker, do not draw that firearm and shoot at the vehicle as the hijacker gets away.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then various security companies offered anti-hijacking training in Johannesburg. I went on one of these courses led by a member of the SAPS. The whole aim of the course was to teach awareness and minimise the chances of the driver ending up in a position where he was still in his vehicle, gun not drawn, and the hijacker was close to the vehicle with his weapon drawn. These were some of the recommended steps to prevent being surprised by a hijacker:

1) Maintain a good following distance between your vehicle and the one in front. This means you can see more of the road up ahead and you can't get boxed in as easily. When coming to a stop behind a vehicle, leave almost a car-length of space so that if you do see someone get out of a car in your rear-view mirror, you can step on it and get away in an adjacent lane.

2) You must be aware of potential hijack spots. This means high hedges at traffic lights, blind rises and traffic congestion. The anti-blind spot mirrors are useful. In one demonstration the instructor was able to approach my side window from the rear of the car and I couldn't see him in my rear-view mirror or my side mirror. He approached in my blind spot. Those little curved stick-on mirrors cure this.

3) If it is night time and you are approaching a set of red lights and it all looks clear traffic-wise but you can't see if anyone is crouching behind a tree or low bush, then by all means go through the red. Don't stop. Better a traffic fine than a hijacking.

4) You can't wear a seatbelt and draw effectively. You must either have the gun already drawn (perhaps under your leg or in a seat-mounted pouch), or you must drive with no seatbelt. Driving with no seatbelt is more for those short journeys from work to home at night and not for day driving because statistically you are still more likely to be hurt in a crash than be hijacked.

5) If you can see the guy before he has drawn level with your vehicle you may be able to manouevre out of there at speed. If one hijacker is seen to the front and another is at the rear or if a car blocks the rear, then you must know how to shoot out of a vehicle. We did quite a few drills, involving forward and rear firing, and left-hand firing out of the passenger side. It was quite intense: we fired a couple of shots without ear protection in the car and I can tell you there is quite a loud racket even with a 9mm.

So there you have it. The peaceful official way is to comply with the hijacker's demands and avoid confrontation. The police way is to avoid the opportunity to be hijacked and only to draw and fire if the advantage is with the driver. I think overall this makes sense.

On a related note, there was an anti-hijack system developed in SA where dual flamethrowers are activated by a foot pedal and completely scorch both sides of the vehicle and anyone standing there. I quite like that idea. I would probably sacrifice my paint-job for the sake of toasted hijacker

Last edited by Odd Job; January 20, 2006 at 02:57 PM.
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Old January 20, 2006, 02:46 PM   #12
Odd Job
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Maybe this should be the right tactic?




This is the device I was talking about in my previous post. It is activated by a foot-pedal. There are butane tanks under the car. Now the question arises whether you could get into trouble if (for argument's sake) instead of the butane tanks you had a couple of shotguns rigged with a foot switch, and you took a hijacker's lower legs off with those.
Well, maybe only in South Africa then...
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Old January 20, 2006, 03:18 PM   #13
model 25
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When traveling in a bad area always leave enough room so you have an "out".( If you can see the bottoms of the wheels of the car in front of you then you can get around them) If you are paying attention then you can just drive off and not have to shoot. If you travel in the world today and someone gets the drop on you then you didn't pay attention.

25
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Old January 20, 2006, 03:51 PM   #14
Musketeer
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I didn't want to do this but you guys forced it with the flame thrower...

I would just get a Trunk Monkey. http://www.trunkmonkey.com/

Check the movies for Road Rage and Theft Retrieval.
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Old January 20, 2006, 11:53 PM   #15
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"There are butane tanks under the car. Now the question arises whether you could get into trouble if (for argument's sake) instead of the butane tanks you had a couple of shotguns rigged with a foot switch"


I think I would rather have the butane than a shotgun rig .

On another note, a previous poster asked if in a carjacker situation you would be able to access your CCW, with a seatbelt on etc. Honestly before now, I would have to say no. I carry IWB at 4 or 5 o'clock and/or a P32 in my front pocket. I suppose I had gotten complacent in my SD thinking, knowing that I had a gun gave me (false) security. If driving off were not an option, no way would I be able to access either of my weapons......now if I had that butane set up .
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Old January 21, 2006, 03:15 AM   #16
azurefly
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Quote:
HOWEVER: if the little punks that have TWICE tried to steal my son's car out from in front of our house .... TWICE in a WEEK... come back for a third bite of the apple they are going to get a serious butt full of dove load if I catch 'em. So far they've cost me a new ignition switch, and they tried the other night to pry open the driver's door (lost the plastic cover over the window). Little sharks. I can only wish for a shotgun full of rock salt.....

I say, kill 'em.
How long should you have to suffer with repeated damage to and loss of your property? Obviously they are either not catchable, or the law has caught them and turned them back out to victimize further.

You want to wound them? Why? So their families can come back and sue you? Even if they bring a losing case, it'll cost you more money. You might as well put them out of society's misery when next you have an excuse to do so.

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Old January 22, 2006, 02:55 AM   #17
Mizzle187
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I love Louisiana! You dont have to have ccw to pack in your car(loaded) and they have a carjacking law where they are dead meat if they attempt it! It would be worth checking your laws!
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Old January 22, 2006, 02:07 PM   #18
armedandsafe
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I still remember the news stories in San Diego, when the male passenger leaned across the female driver and killed the hijacker by stabbing him in the throat with his Buck knife. She was pretty shook up, what with all the blood in her face. Car jackings took a dive for quite awhile after that.

There was the case in SouthEastern Washington, where the driver shot the hijacker through the door of his pickup. He was loaded with hardball, but, he said, it still took two shots before he got one through and into the 'jacker.

My stepfather was a long distance trucker. He kept a short barreled shotgun strapped to the driver's door, muzzles to the rear. He used it once without unstrapping it from the hangers. He said it was very effective. His followup weapon was 55,000 pounds of locker beef behind a very large diesel engine.

There are ways.

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Old January 22, 2006, 02:18 PM   #19
craigntx
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anytime a weapon is used to take something its justifiable deadly force

but if you wait too long and the threat has passed its gets a little tougher to defend
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Old January 22, 2006, 05:39 PM   #20
Daniel BOON
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don't come here without a weapon

heres what I do while motoring around Vegas.......!) Lock the doors when I get in...2) roll the rear windows partly down so my Rott has enough room to jump threw, and wrap his canines tightly around the A..H...s neck. 3)I carry my smith mdl 24 loaded with hornady 180g under my leg. 4) consider EVERYBODY suspect until proven innocent........
its a shame I have to live like this
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