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Old January 19, 2006, 01:55 PM   #126
Skyguy
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Re: Tactics and Training....Front Sight Press AND Quick Kill:

It's been said that a picture is worth a thousand words.
So, here's a video that will not only explain the immediate decisive advantage of Lasergrips, it will also explain
their value as a point shooter's training tool.

This 14 minute video below demonstrates Lasergrips' instant, accurate target acquisition in dynamic and low light situations.
Accelerate your handgun skills and get the basics in self-defense from the experts at Crimson Trace.

Laser Training and Defense Techniques.......http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv
.
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Old January 19, 2006, 02:06 PM   #127
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Is there policy on the laser site in various Departments? If so some of you who are active, what is it?
Not on mine, and I've never heard of actual, written policy on them. I'm sure there are a few out there that do though.

I have a laser on my 870-P. It allows for a wider view of my surroundings when I'm sweeping a building, and it has one hell of an intimidation factor (not that the shotgun needs it ).

It's easier to track a laser on a long gun than it is one mounted on a pistol. I have no actual, situational experience with a pistol mounted laser, but I do with that on a Taser, and I've found this to be true: If you have the time to steady the dot, it's a very effective tool, but if you only have time for a snap shot, it's very difficult for the eye to track that rapidly moving dot, especially when the target's moving as well.
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Old January 19, 2006, 02:37 PM   #128
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Quote:
Capt_Charlie:
If you have the time to steady the dot, it's a very effective tool, but if you only have time for a snap shot, it's very difficult for the eye to track that rapidly moving dot, especially when the target's moving as well.
Well said! I think that's about the best explanation I've seen to explain what some of us have been saying throughout the whole thread.
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Old January 19, 2006, 02:46 PM   #129
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"I believe the focus and the quick ability to function without the need of anything else is paramont in the training of a true 'Gunman'."

I really like this one. I could not have said it better. True gunman have lived and survived for a long time without anything but their skills and focus when the SH'sTF.

It should go down as a trueism of the gun world IMO. I'll be using this thought in my lessons from now on. It perfectly describes what it is we do.

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Old January 19, 2006, 11:23 PM   #130
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Quote:
Massad does not use lasers on his defensive sidearms,
Au contraire mon ami:

"I carry a Lasergripped Model 442 as a backup gun......." -- Massad Ayoob

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Old January 19, 2006, 11:27 PM   #131
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Thats not his primary, it's a backup, now how many times is he going to go to a backup?

How many ever go to a backup?

Like I said, he doesn't use one on his defensive gun. And how do I know this you ask? Well, I used to shoot against him all the time. I have first hand knowledge of what he carried defensively.

And I know first hand he does NOT need a lasergrip on his defensive arm, he can shoot very well without them, but he does use his sights.

Take what he has to say about a lot of things with a grain of salt. Want to know why? send me a pm

Robin Brown
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Old January 20, 2006, 12:06 AM   #132
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Take what he has to say about a lot of things with a grain of salt. Want to know why? send me a pm
I already know why. But it's still fun to quote him.

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Old January 20, 2006, 12:28 AM   #133
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Old January 20, 2006, 12:30 AM   #134
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I'm pretty sure that I could outshoot Massad in this situation. :)
Me using my lasered 1911 and him using his primary w/sights or pointing or however.
No backup allowed.

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Old January 20, 2006, 12:33 AM   #135
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If you have the time to steady the dot, it's a very effective tool, but if you only have time for a snap shot, it's very difficult for the eye to track that rapidly moving dot, especially when the target's moving as well.
???

Capt Charlie, how much time have you spent behind a laser? And do you have access to a range with moving targets?

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Old January 20, 2006, 01:17 AM   #136
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Capt Charlie, how much time have you spent behind a laser? And do you have access to a range with moving targets?
Not much, but it's been the real deal, with adrenalin flowing, and not on the range. The weapon was a Taser, which has a laser sight, and the guy had a knife. I only had a split second to line up the laser and fire, and I found it very difficult to track that laser dot quickly. It really was more of an instinct shoot than actually using the laser to sight.
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Old January 20, 2006, 01:23 AM   #137
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"I'm pretty sure that I could outshoot Massad in this situation. "

I would have taken that bet between 1984 and 1987-88. You would have lost, plain and simple. I can't say about now, as I have not seen Mas in some time.

I get the impression you would like to create very low percentage scenarios where the laser MIGHT be an advantage to prove some point by your last post.

Take the next 5 years and find me a documented shooting where the defender actually fired in self defense from the scenario you just gave. Look at all the resources available at your disposal on the net. I think you will not find ONE where that has been a position the defender had to shoot from. When you find ONE, let us know.

The probability of such is so small as to be irrelevant in the real world except to someone as yourself apparently attempting to find a situation to prove the lasers worth.

I'm really getting the impression that you are young [ say 20-25, maybe less, maybe a lot less ] with no real working street experience, someone who really can't shoot all that well, relatively speaking, with sights, or without them. One who has found a crutch in the laser and has latched onto that crutch attempting to convince everyone they also need that crutch 24/7. That you believe you can win on the street with that crutch [ which may be the case or may not be depending on who you choose to mess with ]. That you have bought into the CT laser advertising so heavily that you are either deluding yourself that a perfect sceneario for the laser will present itself so that you can then validate the advertising or that you have so latched onto the crutch of that device that you can't see the forest from the trees.

Now, it may be I'm way off base here, you are 40-60 years, you have a background of working the streets and dealing with BG's daily where survival has been predicated by your cognitive skills, street smarts through experience and your training in firearms, defensive knife, baton, H2H etc. If this latter is the case, and you have that background and do find that much value using what I consider a crutch, instead of any real skills through hard practice, I'll stand corrected.

Neither is an attempt to disparage you as a person or embarrass you in any way. Not everyone can have 30 years of surviving the streets, are old enough to qualify for that to begin with, or have enough gun handling skills from years of training to not have to rely on add ons, crutches, etc that appear to give one an advantage over another [ until you run into someone who can put three in you before you blink and turn that laser on or get your weapon up ].

If you feel you are faster with that laser/crutch, use it. I'm faster without one. I have very specific skills that have been honed over 37 years, 29 of those living the streets and staying alive against real threats by many means at my disposal. 25 years with one technique that even at my advanced age will work 95+% of the time in a SD situation statistically verifable through the FBI Crime reports over the last 25 years as well.

No need to take the above negatively, it's just what I read on you. Like I said, perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps I'm right. I can only base my considerable cognitive skills on your posts. The last of which really did set off the bells to write the above.

You continue to work your side of the street, and I'll work mine. We'll never see eye to eye on the issue of the real relevance of having a laser on your defensive arm so there is no need to continue further. You are sold on them, I'm not with the exception of a narrow range of circumstances which are unlikely at best not handled as well with real training of the hardware you find in your hand when the elephant appears.

I hope you never have to experience the about to be stepped on by the beast adrenaline dump, and if you find yourself in that situation, I sincerely hope your skills are up to the task at hand. Rely on what you want for that moment if it happens one day, but do consider the potential for the laser to become a crutch you rely on too much at the potential of your own perils.

Good luck with your laser training, and stay safe out there.

Robin Brown
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Old January 20, 2006, 01:11 PM   #138
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Capt Charlie ~

Your agency sends you out with laser equipped Taser, but you haven't spent a lot of time working with a laser in practice? Bad juju there; glad it worked out okay in that case.

I venture to suggest that if you had spent some significant time with the laser on the range, esp with moving targets, using the laser dot might have been more "instinctive" when you needed it. Fair disclosure -- I say this as someone who has never been there or done that (nor likely ever will), but I have spent no little time at the range with a laser, on targets of nearly every description both while stationary and while moving. So what I have is not real world experience, but it is experience of a sort.

In my thus-limited experience, I've discovered a few things. First, if you've trained yourself to be a good "front sight" shooter, it will take a conscious act of the will to force your eyes to look at the laser dot as it appears on the target, instead of at your front sight, as you draw. Learning to trust the dot the very instant it appears is probably the hardest part of the learning curve with a laser; it isn't like irons where you might need to double-check the alignment. The dot is either there, or it is not. (Incidentally, if the dot is not there, the other essential training aspect is to transition instantly back to irons rather than fiddling with the laser or trying to diagnose its non-appearance.)

I have always found laser sighting very much easier for moving targets than iron sights are -- it's one of the areas lasers are best at. I'm looking for something that would explain your experience vs mine, and coming up blank. I'm assuming you've put enough time behind a pistol to have a kinesthetic as well as visual awareness of when the gun is on target and when it's not, so any weirdness there is out. It could be that you weren't prepared to instantly trust the laser dot when it first appeared; that's probably one of the more common difficulties I've seen with folks who are unfamiliar with lasers.

The other possibilities I can think of are really unlikely in your case, because you're an experienced and competent shooter. But as an example of the kinds of confusion that can occur, I had a conversation awhile back with someone who thought using a laser meant she would have to align her iron sights with the laser dot once the laser dot was on the target. It took awhile to explain that with a laser, she was supposed to ignore her iron sights altogether, and that the front sight didn't matter as long as the dot was on target. And I'm still not sure she believed me. If someone were trying to do something like that, of course the laser would slow her down considerably even on a cardboard target, and it would be very difficult for her to hit a moving target.

In any case, if you haven't spent some time with lasers on the range, you can't really expect them to work well for you in the field -- no matter what anyone says about how easy they are to use. Just like any other tool, their use does require training.

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Old January 20, 2006, 01:27 PM   #139
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I doubt the moving targets that are ducks or geese

Will ever cause the shotgun hunters a desire to go to the laser.

That said and done. I would not get a grip laser since I have already posted the problem with the big mitts.

I do believe if I did get one (which I doubt). I would put it into my Glock 40 cal. But it would be the one that goes into the spring and sticks out of the snout.

They are a good tool (laser) and if you train with them they will be a very helpful item to have in your kit. I have them on two of my levels for construction work and they are great!

HQ
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Old January 20, 2006, 01:42 PM   #140
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I'm looking for something that would explain your experience vs mine, and coming up blank.
I think the difference is a combination of adrenalin and a lack of time to line up properly. Remember that with a laser, a slight movement of the hand results in substantial movement of the dot on the target. The further away the target, the more the dot moves. In my case, the man was suicidal and my Taser was down on my side, hidden from view, while a negotiator tried to talk him down. Didn't work, and the guy made a rapid attempt to plunge the knife into his chest. Distance was about 10 feet, and I had only a split second to bring the Taser up and fire. On a Taser, the laser comes on when you flip the safety off, and I remember it as being difficult to place and hold the dot steady in the proper place, given the time involved. Had I had more time, there's no doubt I could have steadied it on target.

Our Taser training is intensive, but the training centers mostly around its actual deployment, and not so much on the bells & whistles. I do agree, however, that training with the laser sight would add to its effectiveness, but given that Tasers are the only weapons we have that are laser equipped (except for SRT), there's never been a high priority put on it.
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Old January 20, 2006, 01:43 PM   #141
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I hope you never have to experience the about to be stepped on by the beast adrenaline dump, and if you find yourself in that situation, I sincerely hope your skills are up to the task at hand. Rely on what you want for that moment if it happens one day, but do consider the potential for the laser to become a crutch you rely on too much at the potential of your own perils.

With my best intentions and all due respect to you Robin, I have to say.....WOW!

I didn't think that I'd have to present my credentials in order to support my perfectly legit information about the added advantage of Lasergrips in all sorts of self defense scenarios.

Somebody asked me once: "Have you ever had to dodge a bullet?"
That's when I first took account, thought and answered "Yep, probably 50,000 bullets have come my way...maybe more". He said, "Yeah, right". I just dropped the subject.

I am a proud Sky Soldier. A veteran of the Herd…the 173rd AB. We fought day and 'night' against the pro NVA and cong in war zones C and D, operation Junction City and Operation Macarthur.
I spent half of '66 and most of 11 months of '67 in the field. I've walked point day and night....been ambushed. I've seen enough.

I was wounded in Nov. '67 in my right arm, liver and lung on hill 875 near Dak To. Had trouble breathing and had a lot of really bad pain. Thought I'd die right there.
I left my m16, some of my hearing and my hero buddies on that hill.
I was dustoff-evac'd from there to a base hospital and eventually spent 3 months rehab in Germany. I am very fortunate and thankful for having only a 10% disability.

For nearly 10 years I was a commissioned covert controlled substance leo in Calumet City, Illinois. I did the streets.

I point shoot. I sight shoot. But, I have one more advantage over those that do likewise. I have lasergrips on my pistol.

You can call them a crutch....but I am 'positive' that they're a distinct tactical advantage.

Place the dot.....and day or night, you'll hit that spot.....guaranteed.

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Old January 20, 2006, 01:49 PM   #142
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Ok, Ok...

Alright boys, before we choose seconds and count out twenty paces, let's name it a disagreement and call it a day.
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Old January 20, 2006, 01:58 PM   #143
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Alright boys, before we choose seconds and count out twenty paces, let's name it a disagreement and call it a day.
We have no problem with disagreements at TFL, even somewhat heated ones, so long as they remain civil, and not personal. Good debate results in the pro's and con's of a subject being highlighted. This one's remained civil..... so far .
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Old January 20, 2006, 02:00 PM   #144
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Remember that with a laser, a slight movement of the hand results in substantial movement of the dot on the target. The further away the target, the more the dot moves.
Any slight movement of any firearm, whether sighted or point shooting, will result in a greater movement of the POI. The greater the distance, the greater the movement.

The tactical advantage of the laser is that you can easily see the differential at the POI and compensate accordingly.....from 'any' position.

The dot is the POI.
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Old January 20, 2006, 02:28 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Capt Charlie
Remember that with a laser, a slight movement of the hand results in substantial movement of the dot on the target. The further away the target, the more the dot moves.
Thanks, you described what happened very clearly and it makes sense. I think the issue might be that you were relatively unfamiliar with the visual input from a laser. The normal amount of wobble in the dot can be very disconcerting if you're not used to it.

This would be easier to demonstrate in person, because it can be hard to visualize and I'm not sure words are up to the task, but ...

There is no actual, on-target difference between the normal, barely-visible wobble of a front sight and the also normal but relatively large wobble from a laser dot. The visual input from each describes exactly the same potential shot spread on the target. In both cases, a smooth trigger press will cause the shot to be well within the same targeting circle.

Picture it as the difference between a supershort sight radius and a superlong one, and you might be able to see what I'm getting at.

Did that explanation make sense?

pax
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Old January 20, 2006, 02:50 PM   #146
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Wooble did he say Wooble or Waffle on your shot.

I have found that when officers sometime don't take the shot, they really did not want to, or felt death was not the right thing at the time.

Many of us have been there at the last milisec the perp drops the weapon or you are caught in a dispute where the firearm is not the right decision.

SkyGuy
I feel the discription of your qualifications are very good indeed, but it still does not convince me that I should have to use a laser that my finger covers and I don't have a like for.

I like the discussion, but lets just say you have your thoughts and others have theirs. I do believe for the new guy who is looking for the edge and feels the laser is it, will be enough to keep the company afloat. Or the guy who is feeling his age and the eyes are not as good as they use to be.

But if it was up to me and my thoughts they would not make it. I would go for the illuminated sights front and rear (or just the front) and the laser in the snout if I had to have one, as in.... Department Policy.

HQ
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Old January 20, 2006, 03:21 PM   #147
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The laser is just one more tool for the box

It should not be a "crutch" although I am certain that there are those shooters that buy them so they won't have to learn to aim

If not lasers they would likely turn to Point Shooting (sorry couldn't resist)

As stated before....my finger is not in the way because it is on the trigger when I am ready to shoot....and lining up the laser is no problem because it is right there....on target ....just out there past my front sight, because my weapon is already pointed at the target.(OMG...AM I POINT SHOOTING? )

So it is no better or worse than having no laser most of the time

But then....in those awkward moments ....when I am shooting around/under cover, low light, any number of non-standard situations.....

It may be invaluable

And the value as a training aid....priceless

As PAX pointed out....that wobble can be very educational

I hope everyone appreciates how I managed to mention the original thread subject at least twice in the course of discussing lasers
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Old January 20, 2006, 03:40 PM   #148
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I hope everyone appreciates how I managed to mention the original thread subject at least twice in the course of discussing lasers
And even I wandered off topic here . Laser sights are a good and interesting topic (guess I got caught up in that) that deserves a thread of its own. Anybody care to start one?
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Old January 20, 2006, 03:40 PM   #149
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But if it was up to me and my thoughts they would not make it.
I would go for the illuminated sights front and rear (or just the front) and the laser in the snout if I had to have one
Fair enough. Not everybody likes chocolate, either.

I'm just trying to spread the word in the firearms community and testify as to the immediate and numerous
tactical advantages of using a laser equipped firearm....day or night from any position.

Oh well, like they say; no good deed goes unpunished.

Here's my crutch:

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Old January 20, 2006, 03:54 PM   #150
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And even I wandered off topic here
Not really.

The use of a laser equipped firearm is a tactic and they are well suited for training.
....especially in the varied disciplines of point shooting; front sight press and QK.

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