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Old January 17, 2006, 01:55 PM   #101
pickpocket
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Az Qkr
...shooting six plates [ 8 inches in diameter ] at 33 feet in 4.0 seconds flat...
On the move?
You're the MAN!
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Old January 17, 2006, 02:26 PM   #102
Az Qkr
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On the move?

No, the plate racks are shot stationary on a line at the same time an opponent is trying to beat you on his 6 plate rack, reacting to the buzzer. The last plate is on a timer that measured thousands of a second so there was no question who won the relay.

You advanced through relays until you were eliminated or took the money or trophy. We called each relay a run, sorry for the confusion.

I wish I could shoot that fast on the move, but not yet, and maybe never.

Robin Brown
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Old January 17, 2006, 02:32 PM   #103
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Ronny:

Not really that impressive in reality. I knew guys at some matches that were down around low 3 seconds for 6 plates, but then they were using sights and I wasn't

Thats not making excuses either. These guys had a lot of skill on the guns and practiced all the time at these skills.

I thought my times were okay, and of course I had the ocassional miss trying to keep up with these guys at times. Thing was, they were still impressed even when they would beat me on the rack plates as the gun I used was handicapped in their mind.

I've also shot sub 4 second runs often enough, but that was when everything came together and I was into a zen mindset of sorts, just letting it flow without thought of what was happening. It's a euphoric feeling when it happens.

One of the best shots I have ever made on a snapshot was at 50 feet in a sandbank with buddies around. They put an empty yellow plastic 22 box [ about 1.5 inches square on the end ] on a fence post and asked if I could just draw and hit it. The first shot took it off the post and everyone thought it had fallen after I hit the post. We walked to it and the plastic box was shattered on the ground. This was with a lightweight commander with milspec sights which I didn't use. Another zen moment had happened then.

The limiting factor is always the mind. As the one who bring others into QK with a pistol of revolver [ I own the registered copyrights ], I don't "train" people in this skill, I open the door to their natural abilities with QK, and they either step through that door and are enlightened or they do not. Thats why the mind is the limiting factor. They are shown how to do something they have always been able to do, and didn't know it, just like I was by the master Bobby Lamar [ Lucky ] McDaniel.

Robin Brown

Last edited by Az Qkr; January 17, 2006 at 03:14 PM.
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Old January 17, 2006, 06:18 PM   #104
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Lasergrips allow fast and precise shot placement from nearly any angle or awkward position or reasonable distance.....indoors, outdoors, daylight, twilight, nightlite or darkness.

Personally, I also practice sudden, close pointshooting and extended distance sight shooting.
But there is no doubt that the laser is a superior asset and method, especially for the novice, frightened, wounded or 'seldom' shooter.

Just place the dot and you'll hit that spot.

.
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Old January 18, 2006, 03:14 AM   #105
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Skyguy:

I asked before and can't remember if you replied or not, but do you work for CT?

Robin Brown
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Old January 18, 2006, 12:24 PM   #106
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Hahaha....

<whip>
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Old January 18, 2006, 12:45 PM   #107
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I asked before and can't remember if you replied or not, but do you work for CT?
Nope.
I'm just impressed with the immediate decisive advantage of Lasergrips, especially on the self defense side of the coin.

But I'm in good company, there's also:

U.S. Military and NATO forces....many law enforcement agencies

Ernie Langdon…..IDPA champion, Marine vet, trainer
Massad Ayoob…..World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert
Ken Hackathorn…..international small arms trainer, author, consultant
Mike Dalton…..World IDPA Steel Challenge Champion
Bob Taubert..…Marine officer, FBI Special Agent, counter terrorism expert
Tom Aveni…..Use of force policy expert, police officer, trainer
Marty Hayes…..FAS President, Master handgunner, police officer
Jim Cirrillo
Ted Nugent…..President of United Sportsmen of America, Author and Musician
C. R. Vanderscoff..…Beretta USA, trainer
Eugene Nielsen…..Investigative and Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor
Michael De Bethencourt.....Staff instructor of the Northeastern Tactical Schools
Denny Hansen…..SWAT magazine
Rich Verdi..…trainer
Bob Scott.....Vice-Chairman of the Board, Smith & Wesson
Wes Doss…..trainer
A'Tow Avon…..American Survival Guide
Ralph Mroz.....Training Director, Police Officers Safety Association, Firearms Consultant and Author
Todd Jarrett…..World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer
Leroy Thompson…..Combat Handguns
Colonel Rex Applegate......

et al........Source: http://www.crimsontrace.com/default.asp?id=678

Sure do wish Crimson Trace sold stock. I'd buy. :)

.
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Old January 18, 2006, 01:40 PM   #108
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I was getting impressed with your thoughts Skyguy

So while over at the range the other day I was checking them out (laser grip).

I was sucessful in having the laser show up if I held the gun so my trigger finger would not get in the way. But it gets in the way as often as not.

Big hands, the gun it was on a 1911 plastic model, just was not going to work so I tried the other that was on a Glock look a like.

No good .
I would have to go for the one that goes on the recoil spring and guide, the grip laser is a no good for me.

It did prove one thing though, my point shooting is right on all the time even when aiming at gun grips in the wall cases. Always hit the grip showed my amigo and he was impressed, with my abilities. But not with the grips. He has the same problem Both are satchel mitted for hands.

HQ
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Old January 18, 2006, 02:44 PM   #109
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I was sucessful in having the laser show up if I held the gun so my trigger finger would not get in the way. But it gets in the way as often as not.
Sorry to hear that your first experience with a Lasergrip didn't pan out very well.
I also had the same issue with my first use of the Lasergrip.

A good instructor could easily correct your problem/grip on the pistol which is probably caused by
placing your trigger finger too high when it's outside the trigger guard.

But please keep in mind that, like shooting itself, there is a learning curve along with a bit of muscle memory
....all reinforced by familiarity and practice.

My problem was solved by learning to place my trigger finger on the front of the trigger guard instead of
immediately below the slide on the receiver itself.


It is now a second nature grip and it has no effect whatsoever on the function of my 1911.
.
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Old January 18, 2006, 03:24 PM   #110
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Thanks for the information. Skyguy...

I will have to see how that works I am going shooting at the range this week with a little m1 carbine and my 40 cal Glock. I try to vary the guns, never know which will be in your hands.

HQ
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Old January 18, 2006, 03:38 PM   #111
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Lets keep things in some persepective here.

Mas does not use lasers on his defensive sidearms, nor his competition guns.

Applegate never used them on his defensive arms either.

While all those people you listed off their website MAY endorse them, certainly NOT ALL use them on any regular basis.

Not all of the US forces use them either. I know for a fact that the SF 5th group doesn't have them on their long guns or handguns. Some certainly do, including some LE agencies as well.

Thats a bit different than saying all the listed people are using them and find value in them on their arms.

Robin Brown
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Old January 18, 2006, 06:51 PM   #112
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Thats a bit different than saying all the listed people are using them and find value in them on their arms.
Hey..."Lets keep things in some persepective here."

In my own defense Robin, I never actually said "all the listed people are using them and find value in them on their arms".
I just said that I was "in good company". Good company meaning some very credible and experienced gunslingers.
But I understand your indignation.

Let's face it, most of those listed use Lasergrips and all of them endorse Lasergrips. I don't believe any of them would put their reputation on the line over a bogus firearm attachment or methodology.

Oh, and for the record, Colonel Rex Applegate did say:

"In my opinion, the S&W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
.
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Old January 18, 2006, 07:09 PM   #113
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From CT's own website answering expert:

How much (ie, as a percentage) of your shooting practice is done with the laser?

Answer:

I shoot once or twice a week and average approx. 500 rounds per week downrange through my primary carry/competition pistol. For the next few months that number will probably double as time permits. My usual routine includes about 50 rounds per session working with the laser, which works out to 15% or so.

I'm toying with the idea of a "laser weekend" up at COMTAC some time this summer ... put about 1,000 rounds down range in two days (and nights) using the laser the whole time. Having done something similar once before, it seems like a good way to eek maximum benefit out of the technology.

I'm a firm believer in practicing with my iron sights most of the time, and counting on the laser as a "bonus" when I use it. But given the reliability of the Lasergrips that I've used pretty extensively over the past few years, I'm wondering if they don't deserve a greater percentage of my training time & money.

Their own expert practices with their product 15% of the time while shooting. He's a firm believer in using his sights most of the time. His only thought to using them more is based on their "reliability", not their being more effective in SD shooting scenarios.

From their "Snubbie Summit" review, where Mr. Caceres was in attendance for CT, it makes no mention of either Cirillo or Ayoob advocating lasers for their own snubby use anywhere, just that they were in attendance at the summit. Not one was quoted as using them at the summit, so we do not know if they used them there or had them on their personal snubbies. I suspect if they did, CT would have made mention of it.

From their advertising:

"Nobody wants to use a weapon against another. But should a dangerous situation call for protecting yourself or your family, Lasergrips provide an immediate and decisive advantage. Thousands of law enforcement and military officers around the world have proven that Lasergrips can dramatically improve the outcome of an armed conflict."

They fail to list even a few of these "thousands" that have proven it can dramatically improve the outcome of an armed encounter.

"Law enforcement agencies have demonstrated that Lasergrips improve hit ratios by as much as 300%. U.S. law enforcement officers are among the best-trained shooters in the world, but hit ratios during shootings in the field are staggeringly low, under 20%. Lasergrips dramatically improve their performance in real-life shootings."

What? They are telling us that US Law dogs are among the best trained shooters in the world? Having been one, I know differently. It's the exception, not the rule as they suggest. And this statement then confirms what I have just said " hit ratios during shootings in the field are staggeringly low, under 20%"

Seems contradictory at best and just more fuel to make a case for their product to me.

This one is good as well: "Evidence from law enforcement and military users clearly shows that a subject is more likely to stand down when faced with a laser-equipped gun."

That has no relation to what an armed citizen will be doing in a SD situation reacting to a threat. Their statement fully supports the OFFENSIVE actions of lawdogs and military using them, totally different for civilians. Anyone here think that a reactive armed encounter is the same as a lawdog who has the gun out, up and is hunting? I don't, and the uses are totally different in nature between the two.

And this one: "Crimson Trace is just the solution they’ve been seeking. No more trying to align sights or choosing between a fuzzy target and fuzzy sights. Crimson Trace puts the sight right on the target."

If one has aging eyes so the threat is fuzzy, isn't the dot going to be fuzzy at the same focal plane and distance? Seems reasonable to believe so. How would a fuzzy target be able to see a small red dot with clarity at the same distance? More hyperbole seems to me.

I'll admit, their advertising makes their product sound like the answer for everyones needs. Thats just good marketing, pure and simple.

Then, if we rethink this logically, their expert uses it 15% of his practice time and prefers to work with his sights, and only considers using it more in practice due to their "reliability", and not some clear adavantage they have over sights in most situations.

Hmmm, interesting.

Applegate may well have said that, but he did NOT use one on his personal sidearms, and that speaks volumes does it not?

Robin Brown
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Old January 18, 2006, 07:33 PM   #114
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Quote:
From CT's own website answering expert:
My usual routine includes about 50 rounds per session working with the laser, which works out to 15% or so.
I think that the 'expert' only devotes 15% of his shooting time to using Lasergrips is because it's so easy to become a proficient shooter with a laser.

One easily becomes deadly accurate in no time and from nearly any awkward or compromising position....indoors, outdoors, daylight, twilight, nightlight or darkness.

I'm somewhat the same as the 'expert'. I devote the bulk of my practice to point shooting and extended range sight shooting because that's what needs constant reinforcing. Lasergrips need much less practice time. No need to waste time and ammo.
.
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Old January 18, 2006, 07:44 PM   #115
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What the expert said was "I'm a firm believer in practicing with my iron sights most of the time, and counting on the laser as a "bonus" when I use it."

He didn't mention anything about using Lasergrips 15% of the time because it's so easy to become a proficient shooter with a laser.

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Old January 18, 2006, 09:24 PM   #116
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Wow...wandered pretty far afield haven't we...oh what the heck

Lasers have a place in the toolbox...while I was a late convert, I have now "seen the light"

They can(with practice) allow you to make really awkward shots that would be difficult/impossible otherwise

They are an exceptional bonus when employed with a ballistic shield..

But while training with one will help you become a better shot by giving real-time feedback on your alignment, they are not magic.

If your platform is not solid, you will get to watch the dancing dot, but not hit your target any more often.

I think they can really help with training to shoot on the move....great feedback...you can really see the effect movement has on your point of aim

I have no problems with the lasergrip on my 1911....when my finger is on the trigger it is out of the way....and that is when I need the dot.

I do NOT use it like a searchlight
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Old January 18, 2006, 09:32 PM   #117
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hahaha...can we let this one die now?
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Old January 18, 2006, 09:40 PM   #118
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re Cirillo & CT, Jim was working CT's booth at the SHOT Show last January and has always spoken highly of the product. He uses them as instructional tools in his classes, but also does demos without them so students can see that the techniques work either way.

My experience with CT has been that you do need to practice with them when you first get them, and need to be skilled in transitioning from laser to irons -- but that the laser is so instinctual and non-perishable a skill that a 15%/85% practice ratio sounds about right.

BTW, if your trigger finger is blocking the beam, you obviously aren't yet ready to fire because your finger isn't yet on the trigger. Proper light discipline means that you should not be activating the laser until you are ready to shoot, so blocking the beam is really not an issue if you are using the laser correctly in the first place. But if it bugs you, just get in the habit of resting your trigger finger on or slightly above the bulge of the laser.

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Old January 18, 2006, 09:49 PM   #119
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We sure can...but first

Thanks PAX...much clearer when you say it

AZ QKR- we are gonna have to agree to disagree....our main difference is I don't think I am right about everything

Matt....You have been off my ignore list every since you regained your sense of humor.. many ...many moons ago

Love what you wrote on THR recently



"In other words---unless one's position is to always use one's sights----there is no debate. Just good old common sense. "

Exactly right......Both have their place....we mostly disagree on where to draw the line...some get downright nasty about it...waste of time IMHO

Some of us also disagree about exactly what is PS and what is "soft focus", stressfire, etc....etc...etc......most of us can do so without getting testy

Can't remember the name of the guy that filled me in on your training...I have a near photographic memory for words and numbers but names and faces ..fuugedabboutit...

Suffice it to say that whathisname was a true artist with a handgun, spoke highly of you, and used his sights...most of the time
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Old January 19, 2006, 03:38 AM   #120
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"Some of us also disagree about exactly what is PS and what is "soft focus", stressfire, etc....etc...etc."

There's no need to disagree on this at all.

Enos created his own set of "descriptors" about 15 years ago.

Pointshooting descriptors have been around for what?, 60+ years at least?

If I suddenly called pointshooting something like "just do it focus" I wonder if that would supercede what was established 60+ years ago as well? Somehow I seriously doubt it.

Then again, if some 17 year old grew up with that descriptor, having read a book about it, it sure would be hard to convince him he was wrong when he was informed it wasn't now wouldn't it?

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Old January 19, 2006, 08:04 AM   #121
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Well...do you think if you renamed it "Just Do It Focus" that you could market it? LOL
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Old January 19, 2006, 10:55 AM   #122
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I would hope not, but in todays world one never knows.

I was dubbing around further with this last night, we could develop the soft,soft,soft focus [ focus # 1,339,442, described as squinting so much you could barely see ], and then there could be the hard, hard, hard focus [ focus # -18,649, described as the steely, glaring mad as hell stare.



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Old January 19, 2006, 11:22 AM   #123
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What about the 1,000-yard stare? Ahh...the possibilities are endless.
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Old January 19, 2006, 11:27 AM   #124
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What about the 1,000-yard stare?

Yes, thats the Zombie focus [ focus #4.857369 ]

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Old January 19, 2006, 01:43 PM   #125
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If I was to get a laser sight

It would have to be the one that is in the snout and can not be interferred with.

I believe the focus and the quick ability to function without the need of anything else is paramont in the training of a true 'Gunman'.

Have we discussed this:

Is there policy on the laser site in various Departments? If so some of you who are active, what is it?

HQ
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