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Old January 13, 2006, 05:34 PM   #76
JN01
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I have been experimenting with point shooting techniques for a little while now. The method descibed in the Applegate/Janich book "Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back" seems to work the best for me. They actually describe it as an unsighted aiming method.

It makes sense to me that under a life and death situation, I may likely focus on the threat rather than the gun sights, therefore, a "sightless" technique should be an important one.

It also seems reasonable that a laser sight, could at times, also be usefull in high stress situations. It would be another option, like the sights.

As I have no experience with laser sights, I am not trying to be critical, but I am curious about one aspect of using them.

My question is, if when the SHTF you are unable to focus on your sights, does the same hold true for a little red dot? When you and/or the target are moving, is it even harder to find this bouncing dot?
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Old January 13, 2006, 05:49 PM   #77
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Yes, I would think so.

That is the reason for the dissagreement. When it hits the fan you go to the instinct and survival mode and if you have not been trained and trained well
you are in the deep end.

But the lighted sights were great and so is the laser, but you still need to be able to shoot and response is the thing, the timing, the action the reaction.

All of it comes into play and then just as you are squeezin that trigger you realize it is not the bad guy and you need to be able to react to that as well.
Training is the key, everyone likes to talk about it but there are very few departments out there that have the kind of training LAPD has.

They come from all over the world to be trained at the facilities.

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Old January 13, 2006, 06:15 PM   #78
matthew temkin
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JNO1..yes.
I was a personal friend/student of Col. Applegate and he felt that a laser was just something else to look for and slow you down.
Keep practicing the point shooting and it will serve you well.
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Old January 13, 2006, 08:07 PM   #79
pickpocket
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The laser is better in low-light than in bright (or direct) light...easier to find the dot. But, as will all things, you should train extensively with your laser just as you train yourself to reflex shoot.
If you know what you're looking for, the dot is relatively easy to find. If you can't find it easily, then don't waste time looking for it, just revert to the front sight.
When you need it, the laser should just be an extension of your weapon...second nature...just like what the rest of your skills should be.

Saying that the laser is useless is something like saying NVG's or thermal imaging are useless. They're all tools, and to use a tool effectively you need to have solid fundamental skills and solid training in how to employ your tool.
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Old January 13, 2006, 10:29 PM   #80
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Quote:
My question is, if when the SHTF you are unable to focus on your sights, does the same hold true for a little red dot?
No! You will focus on the threat and with minimal training you should easily see and place the dot on the target.

Quote:
When you and/or the target are moving, is it even harder to find this bouncing dot?
Yes, but still easier than sights.

FYI: How far is the laser visible?
Crimson Trace has the most powerful beam allowed by law, a Class IIIa visible light diode. At night, in reduced light and indoors the laser is highly visible up to several hundred yards. Under bright sunlight, the dot can be seen up to 15 yards away. --Crimson Trace

also.....pickpocket nailed it. Do a re-read of his post.

.
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Old January 14, 2006, 12:40 PM   #81
JN01
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Skyguy,

I re-read pickpockets post as you suggested. The technique he is describing is essentially the same as the Applegate method. If you concentrate on the target and raise the gun to line of sight level, you see "through" the gun peripherally to index it with the target. If you do this I would think that your laser dot would then also be on target. It doesn't seem like the laser would offer that much of an advantage in that situation, although it would verify your "aiming" point.

After seeing the videos on the Crimson Trace web site, it seems to me the biggest plus to having a laser sight would be those instances where you can't bring the gun to line of sight level.

I think they would be another useful tool to have available as an option. I guess I just need to try one out for myself.

One other thing; if you pocket carry or SmartCarry a gun equipped with CT grips, could the pressure activated switch inadvertently turn on easily?
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Old January 14, 2006, 06:45 PM   #82
Az Qkr
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"Quote:
When you and/or the target are moving, is it even harder to find this bouncing dot?

Yes, but still easier than sights."

Yes, but harder [ and slower ] than no sights.

Hence threat focused firing method which work very well when either or are moving.

"Saying that the laser is useless is something like saying NVG's or thermal imaging are useless."

I haven't seen anyone suggest it's useless here.

Robin Brown
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Old January 14, 2006, 06:58 PM   #83
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Does anyone remember Ed the shooter who

Blazed his way into glory with the double action 38 specials S&W. His last name I have drawn a blank for some reason been so long since I thought of the man.
He was some kind of a shot no sighting, just pull and shoot. Fast and accurate at 15' all into a playing card.

I saw an LAPD guy in the late 50s do the same and then he went to sighted firing and split the cards. Had um side ways pretty impressive. I know low powered loads and all but still good shooting in anyones book.

This was quite a while ago and he was not the first or the last to go with the same mentality as R.B.

HQ
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Old January 14, 2006, 07:35 PM   #84
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Quote:
Az Qkr:
I haven't seen anyone suggest it's useless here.
Well, maybe not in so many words, but....

Quote:
Sweatnbullets:
I will take the money I saved on needless hardware and put it towards more software and ammo for that training.
Quote:
OBIWAN:
"People who have been there/done that will tell you - in my experience" To use your sights
Quote:
matthew temkin:
...felt that a laser was just something else to look for and slow you down.
It was just a blanket statement
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Old January 14, 2006, 07:37 PM   #85
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Quote:
I guess I just need to try one out for myself.
Once you try them you'll never look back. They're amazing.

When using the laser you'll never have to take your eyes off the target/threat.
You'll not have to use either the gun or the sights to hit the target/threat....just the dot.
You'll be able to hold your weapon at any convenient height or angle and still hit the target or threat.

In my opinion, for defense, learn to point shoot for very close range. Then incorporate the lasergrips and/or sights at medium and extended range.

If you're serious about defensive shooting....stop pussyfootin around and get with the program!

.
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Old January 14, 2006, 07:48 PM   #86
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That's the thing of it... lasers are great if you can't get a clean angle on your target, or if you're engaging at a range beyond that which you train to reflex shoot.
In almost every single engagement I've had where I was using my pistol, I ended up simply point shooting, in one form or another, because you have only fractions of a second to react and if you get the laser on, cool...if not, oh well....you're still within 10-15m and you should be able to put a round center mass at that range even if you file your sights off. There was only one or two times the laser came in handy. My point is that there WAS a time when it came in handy, and I was GLAD to have it
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Old January 14, 2006, 08:51 PM   #87
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Quote:
It was just a blanket statement
Needless for me is not useless for everyone else. Big difference!

I'm not going to install lasers on all seven of my self defense guns. I wonder how much something like that would cost? I can apply QK to every gun that may ever end up in my hands.

Cost me about $100 for the QK knowledge and training.
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Old January 14, 2006, 09:01 PM   #88
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Quote:
Needless for me is not useless for everyone else. Big difference!
hehe...no, I didn't mean anything other than that every tool has its place.
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Old January 14, 2006, 10:51 PM   #89
Az Qkr
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HQ:

I believe Ed McGiven is who you are thinking of. One of the true greats with a handgun.

"and you should be able to put a round center mass at that range even if you file your sights off."

Like the attachments? This is the one I use to practice and train others with.

Robin Brown
Attached Images
File Type: jpg no sights 45-1.JPG (99.2 KB, 99 views)
File Type: jpg no sights 45-3.JPG (97.5 KB, 81 views)
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Old January 15, 2006, 01:51 PM   #90
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Laser pointers and NVS have their applications, but in general a NVG with a IR pointer/aimer is better tool for a weapon than a dedicated NVS. NVS are more suited to static SP/LPs than for any time you are moving.
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Old January 15, 2006, 02:25 PM   #91
pickpocket
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Quote:
Like the attachments? This is the one I use to practice and train others with.
Precisely. And I DO like
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Old January 17, 2006, 02:31 AM   #92
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I tried QK and a CT revolver a few days ago during an extended range session.
Most folks on the board are probably better shooters than me, so this is provided for those who are not and/or might otherwise be interested.

My reading and now limited experience with Point Shooting (like QK) demand I learn this. Was able to adjust the hits to mostly about 5 inch groups at 20 ft in rapid 2 and 3 round bursts. (Post #1) Regripped near Low Ready between bursts and then quickly back to target…no firing from draw or on the ground etc at the range. Targets are printer paper. Practiced dryfire with this most days for a week … as confidence and smoothness grew so did results. My current default is Front Sight Press but I wish it was PS. For me PS is quicker and I feel really good using it – love the target focus. My 12 years of FSP are not wasted because ‘they’ say about 25% of deadly encounters are beyond 20 ft.

The rental CT revolver was 40% heavier, had a better trigger and different grips and the CT guy was not around to give me a quick heads up BUT it was a great shoot. Smallest combat groups with quickest follow-ups ever. The guy who said ‘Try it…you’ll buy it’, nailed it. PS gets me to trigger break quicker which might partially be due to looking for the red dot initially rather than cleanly at the POA. I got better with practice but I suspect PS will always be quicker. The small groups are really inspiring…the CT tape is on the way.

Thanks to those who responded to the thread and to Matt for this:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195298
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Old January 17, 2006, 02:42 AM   #93
Az Qkr
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riverkeeper:

Thanks for the update on your experiences with this.

If you were to be in one of the training weekends where QK was being taught, I have no doubt you'd improve rapidly from where you report you are presently in a matter of a few hours.

I do appreciate your interest and hope you continue to work with the threat focused methodologies. It really is only a matter of desiring the knowledge as it is out there and being more accepted all the time. Feel free to get back to me if you have any questions relative the QK pistol system in the future.

Robin Brown
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Old January 17, 2006, 12:53 PM   #94
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In my experiences, point shooting begins to lose its luster past 15 feet....about the length of a car.
Even the slightest variations (1/8") of the front sight/barrel will result in erratic points of impact (POI).
The farther out the target....the greater the variation of the POI.
That's not a good thing.

In a life or death scenario, point shooting past very close range greatly increases the miss probability
and tends to degrade into spray and pray.
Add in the fear factor, adrenaline, tunnel vision, movement, loss of fine motor skills
........and hits on the threat become more luck than skill.

Past belly gun range is where the lasergrips excel, not only in speed of target acquisition but in the
ability to consistently paint and hit the threat.

It's 21st century stuff...and it works.

.
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Old January 17, 2006, 01:20 PM   #95
Az Qkr
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"In my experiences, point shooting begins to lose its luster past 15 feet....about the length of a car."

Formal training will extend the distance well past 15 feet using QK. One can double that distance with practice and anything inside 21 feet is OWNED immmeidately.

"In a life or death scenario, point shooting past very close range greatly increases the miss probability"

The "very close range" wasn't defined in distance above so it is hard to understand that statement precisely. The statement above is not exclusive to pointshooting however, as most will certainly relate to the same occuring trying to use their sights.

"Past belly gun range is where the lasergrips excel"

That may be your experience yet it is not etched in stone for those who have the training to use threat focused methodologies.

Most anything we will run into where a handgun is used for defense will be well within the 21 feet and probably inside 15. At either of these distances QK is fast and accurate once the skill has been learned.

I've got video of myself using a gov45 with NO sights at 60 feet on a humanoid full size target where 22 rounds were fired from three magazines [ two reloads ] and all shots were on the body, and 70% of those were within an 8 inch circle COM.

Is this something I'll do on the street? Unlikely, but it does indicate that QK is certainly valid past "belly gun range" or "very close range" scenarios with training. The shots were fired quickly at close to two rounds per second.

Robin Brown
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Old January 17, 2006, 01:35 PM   #96
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60ft.....20m....not too shabby.
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Old January 17, 2006, 01:39 PM   #97
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Mr. Brown,

Off topic, but I bet you completely annihilate everyone at bowling pin shoots, don't you?
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Old January 17, 2006, 01:41 PM   #98
Az Qkr
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I tired of the debate that threat focused methodologies, and particularly QK was only dependable and accurate enough for belly distance or very close ranges so I decided to test it on the range last year.

I knew it was good to 30 feet already from years of doing this, and moved the target out to a measured 60 feet with a tape measure, the camera documented the distance to my feet, the target was panned to show a clean unshot surface, rolled while I shot 22 rounds and then stayed rolling while we both walked to the target and I counted the holes for the camera.

I could push it further but why bother, if I slowed the pace of shooting, I'm sure I could get to 90 feet with no sights. At 60 feet I was hitting pretty damned quick, and could NOT see the holes from there, so we didn't know what to expect till we walked up on it.

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Old January 17, 2006, 01:49 PM   #99
Az Qkr
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Ronny:

I have shot pin matches but prefer the plate racks myself

I am on video years ago shooting six plates [ 8 inches in diameter ] at 33 feet in 4.0 seconds flat where the camera moved to the timer after the run. This was against an opponent with another rack next to me.

We started from surrender and sometimes from low ready. I've had better runs but thats the one run that was filmed that day where the timer was panned by the camera for posterity.

Quite a few of my A class IPSC friends thought they would kick butt with their $2K guns against my 400.0 sightless 45, they were usually dissapointed

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Old January 17, 2006, 01:52 PM   #100
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*Darth Vader voice:* ...impressive...
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