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Old January 8, 2006, 02:18 PM   #51
Skyguy
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Robin,

I wish you had gone ahead and informed yourself with the four informative links that were provided.
It never hurts to learn more about new tactics and technology.

Everything I posted is absolute truth...no rumors or disinformation.
I'll include the links again so that any others interested can verify my claims.

One other thing; I never said 'absolute total darkness'. Even night vision technology is a poor identifier
between the enemy or friendlies.
I said 'no light' situations....And as an expert, you very well know the difference.

Like others, I've learned that it's tough to convince old timers to accept or try new technology
and new methods, but like computers and the 'net, sooner or later, most everyone figures it out.

My best to you and your students.

This will help with understanding:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/5things.pdf

This holds a wealth of information:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/

This tells it like it is:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv

This is a defense training/information video:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv
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Old January 8, 2006, 02:26 PM   #52
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Quote:
I finally turned it off and thats how I shoot at the range- point fire and iron sight fire. I leave the laser off.
I do keep it on for patrol.
I can only read that as when your life is on the line and there's a good probability of low light scenarios...you opt for the laser sight.
Good thinking!
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Old January 8, 2006, 02:38 PM   #53
superman
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yes your right, I have used it when my life was on the line. Any tool that can help is a great advantage. What I am saying is that I dont rely on a battery powered sight. If my laser should quit working i want to know that I am profficient with my siron sights and will be able to stop any threat. I think everyone should have a set. There affordable and fun to shoot when plinking. I just don't want people to use them as a crutch, thinking that there laser is going to be dead on every time. its just like a scope if it gets bumped it will be off. Practice with the laser from time to time, but just make sure that your ability to use sights is dead on.

I am not knocking their accuracy either. I was able to shoot a small propane tank at 100 yards with my sig using my laser. There was really no point in that last statement just bragging, pretty proud of that shot.
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Old January 8, 2006, 02:40 PM   #54
Az Qkr
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"I have found that target aquisition is a bit slower than conventional point shooting."

Thats a fact sir. I hesitated to say as much in my last post for fear it would start others on a path to denial of such, which may not be in the best interest of the thread here. Possibly confusing some with less experience in threat focused shooting management.

One student at the "Sightless in Tucson" event this last Oct., an older gentlemen who has become a friend, had used a laser on his snub for some time and was enamored with it for getting good hits.

After the training, he found he was getting two solid hits before he could find the laser on the threat. He dumped the laser use unless in low light, it's not as fast in threat management for him any longer.

Skyguy: "I said 'no light' situations....And as an expert, you very well know the difference."

No light to me means no light, low light means the same, low light. In fact I've shot blacklight matches where you could not use anything but irons and no tritium/ns's were allowed.

The gun could not be seen in your hand at the shooting station but the targets at 50 feet were illiminated with blacklights which had their outlines painted with luminescent marker, dimly glowing under the blacklight.

If there had been no light no one could shoot at all, the gun and target would both be impossible to see. If you didn't mean absolutely no light by your no light statement, we have come to agreement again.

Thanks for the well wishes sir.

Robin Brown
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Old January 8, 2006, 07:04 PM   #55
pickpocket
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Quote:
I have a CT laser on my sig 226. The really only thing that i have found is that its a great intimidation tool. When a suspect sees that on his chest, they know where that bullet is going to hit. Most of the time they get thier hands in the air or fall face first.
I agree with superman....it's a VERY effective intimidation tool...as effective as racking a round into the chamber of a shotgun.

Target acquisition is a bit slower if you don't practice lining up the laser with peripheral vision, else you tend to focus on the red dot to make sure it's center mass before focusing on the target itself. I have found that this is mostly a problem with people who keep the lasers active even when they are moving or scanning for a target (i.e. the red dot exists before the target does).

Of course, like always, everything is subject to how you practice.

As for how the military/LEO use laser sights...they don't keep them on for long periods of time. Most of the tactical lasers they use are turned on by an actuator on the grips so that they are active only when they're needed. It's just not too smart to keep the thing on all the time, especially if you're in a no-light/low-light situation.
Besides, as a civilian, if you're going to survive criminal or civil litigation you had better be using a tactical flashlight in no-light/low-light. The red dot won't 'identify' anything.
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Old January 8, 2006, 10:11 PM   #56
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I admit, I'm not to big on hardware (gear) I'm a software (training) kind of guy. I only own guns and gear that fits a niche, in me and my wives self defense plan. That is a total of seven guns and the gear that supports those guns.

My software applies to each of these guns. I could pick each one up and effeciently use the training I have recieved without the expense of attaching a lazer device on each of my guns.

I paid a one time only, nominal fee to Robin Brown to learn Quick Kill. That fee covers the skills to pick up any of my guns and apply QK at logical distances, accurately, and effectively in all lighting conditions. The training covers my handguns, my shotguns, and my rifles. I will own QK for the rest of my life.

I will take the money I saved on needless hardware and put it towards more software and ammo for that training.

It is MHO that you should save your money...put it to use bettering yourself....do not become reliant on an unnecessary mechanical device that may not be there or may not work when you really need it. When it comes to saving my life or the lives of my loved ones, I'm going to invest and put trust in me, not some unnecessary mechanical device.

As always YMMV!
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Old January 9, 2006, 01:13 PM   #57
Skyguy
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Quote:
It is MHO that you should save your money...put it to use bettering yourself....do not become reliant on an unnecessary mechanical device that may not be there or may not work when you really need it.
Just so you know; a firearm is 'also' a "mechanical device that may not be there or may not work when you really need it."
LOL

Anyway, your method is pointshooting....plain and simple. I'm very familiar with that technique. I still use that technique and it is no more than what I was taught years ago in my Army AB training.

Confidence and fidelity to a self defense/shooting method is important, but it would be a benefit to leave your mind open to the latest technologies and techniques.
The Army/military/spec ops use lasers, hundreds of LE agencies use lasers, afficionados use lasers and regular folks use lasers.
Technology is on the move. Stuck in the past is not cool.

If accuracy is important, it certainly helps to have a laser sight for shots out past 15-20 feet. It's real easy...put the dot on the target from any awkward or compromised position and that is exactly where the bullet goes.

If Murphy's law appears, revert to your fundamental training; sights.
With pointshooting, if you're out of belly gun range and you're in the dusk or dark you are screwed .

Lasers rule the night!
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Old January 9, 2006, 01:50 PM   #58
Az Qkr
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"With pointshooting, if you're out of belly gun range and you're in the dusk or dark you are screwed."

This assumption/statement is not entirely correct Skyguy.

I carry a tritium front sight on my g17, no tritium rear sight. It is very easy to know where the end of the barrel is by seeing the front sight glow and using QK out to distances past 30 feet at dusk.

In the dark [ not totally without some ambient light ], the tritium always lets me know where I am at and can easily be superimposed in the peripheral vision onto any threat as well. QK utilizes a reference point from the end of the barrel in relation to the threat, if you can see any threat [ even a shadowy figure ] and can see the end of the barrel, they are owned anytime you choose to do so, as long as you have ID'd the potential as something that needs shooting.

I agree lasers have their place, but they are limited in scope to certain circumstances. Nothing owns the night but night vision. My m14 with anpvs4 really owns the night.

To own the night, one needs to "see".

Relative your being familiar with pointshooting [ "that technique" ], I'm not sure what you actually mean by that. There are 3, perhaps four known effective pointshooting techniques which have their own unique methodologies. "that technique", doesn't tell me which methodology you are using when you do pointshoot.

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Old January 9, 2006, 02:21 PM   #59
Ronny
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Lasers compromise concealment?

Question here not related to the flame war in this thread but:

In an absolute darkness environment where neither you or your enemy can see each other, wouldn't the BG be able to see the laser being emitted from the device on your gun? I understand that it's pressure activated, but if it's pitch black and I don't know the location of my enemy, my grip is going to be solid on my gun. In the event I trip over something, I don't want to drop my gun.

As I understand it, tracer rounds "point both ways" in combat. How is it any different with a laser device? The laser would illuminate both the target and the point of origin.

Yes, I know the laser doesn't look like a thin red line in mid-air.

I'm not arguing for or against the device, but I think that a compromised position is a big danger to be considered in this scenario and should be considered in all possible engagements.
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Old January 9, 2006, 02:37 PM   #60
Az Qkr
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Ronny:

No flame war I'm aware of

Just a discussion on the merits [ or demerits ] of various shooting methodologies and devices.

Differences of opinions will always be present if there are two people involved in a discusion of any kind. Those opinions can be based on ones knowledge, training and/or experiences or a lack thereof.

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Old January 9, 2006, 03:16 PM   #61
OBIWAN
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Mr. Temkin.....Long Time indeed.....couldn't agree more SOS

But the names keep changing...so it seems like progress

I have it on good authority that Matt is one of those people that actually can "point shoot" and do it well.

Where we differ (politely) is on whether it has a place at longer distances

Where we agree wholeheartedly is that pont shooting has been around for a long , long time...but everybody acts like they invented it this week!

And where the whole discussion (always) falls apart is on the definitions

I , for one, consider point shooting to be along the lines of the speed-rock (shooting from retention position) kind of thing

To those that would say I am wrong, misguided, uninformed, etc....I would say....that one of us sure is!

IMHO stopping with the pistol just out of actual sight alignment (yes, even 8" out) is not really "point shooting"...but then again...I feel that my shooting is threat focused even when my pistols sights are aligned

I can line myself up and close my eyes and sink a 3 point shot...almost every time....just by feel/muscle memory.....but I am not going to run out and give basketball clinics touting my breakthrough 3pointshooting method.

(I am no more or less basket focused just because my eyes are closed)

To borrow a phrase from an earlier post

"People who have been there/done that will tell you - in my experience"

To use your sights
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Old January 9, 2006, 03:31 PM   #62
Az Qkr
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"Where we agree wholeheartedly is that pont shooting has been around for a long , long time...but everybody acts like they invented it this week!"

I'm not aware of any instructors who act like it was invented "this week", in fact just the opposite. Could you provide us with some of these "everybody"'s names? I think you should be able to give us even two out of "everybody" to start with.

"I , for one, consider point shooting to be along the lines of the speed-rock (shooting from retention position) kind of thing"

Your "consideration" would be wrong by EVERY recorded definition for the last 50+ years, including what Matt teaches. Apparently you don't have a clue about the FAS system he works with. More uninformed opinions sir?

"I can line myself up and close my eyes and sink a 3 point shot...almost every time....just by feel/muscle memory."

Can you do it with the hoop moving? While you're moving? While both you and the hoop are moving dynamically? If not, why would anyone go to your clinic, nothing special there, all you are doing is making free throws otherwise?

Probably a poor analogy here to what is being discussed, but then not surprising based on an obvious lack of real knowledge, understanding or experience.

"To those that would say I am wrong, misguided, uninformed, etc....I would say....that one of us sure is!"

Indeed sir, indeed.

""People who have been there/done that will tell you - in my experience"

To use your sights"

Would these same people go by the name of Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, Jordan, Bryce and others?

I think they certainly qualify as "been there/done that", don't you?

Robin Brown
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Old January 9, 2006, 03:56 PM   #63
pickpocket
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Quote:
I agree lasers have their place, but they are limited in scope to certain circumstances. Nothing owns the night but night vision. My m14 with anpvs4 really owns the night
Was never really impressed with the 4's though. However, NV monacles with an IR filter for your laser - or just an IR laser ....those rock! Not something that most of us have, unfortunately (for me).

Nothing that we have as civilians really owns the night. If you've never witnessed the complete unfairness of thermal imaging then you're missing out

EDIT:
Quote:
Ronny:
As I understand it, tracer rounds "point both ways" in combat. How is it any different with a laser device? The laser would illuminate both the target and the point of origin.
1. You don't keep the freaking thing on all the time
2. If the BG is good enough to reflex shoot you in the nano-second that you should be showing your laser, then you weren't going to come out on top of that situation anyways

Quote:
Ronny:
In an absolute darkness environment where neither you or your enemy can see each other, wouldn't the BG be able to see the laser being emitted from the device on your gun?
If there's not enough ambient light for positive ID, then why would you have your laser sight on? Additionally, if you're using a taclight, then the BG seeing your laser is a moot point.
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Old January 9, 2006, 04:07 PM   #64
Az Qkr
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"Was never really impressed with the 4's though"

I've taken pics of people with it on a camera at 50 yds that the judge could ID as being that person in court. It works just fine for me on the 14 or with the camera attached.

Yes, there are much better gens now of course. The 4 is bulky, but it does own the night. Being a passive system, under the conditions I would use it, I would find anyone real quick using thermal or IR in my AO.

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Old January 9, 2006, 04:25 PM   #65
leadbutt
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Tut,tut, tut,,

Brownie, you know you'll never convince all the people


And what's this jab at us point shooters,,, slower my foot

Dave James
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Old January 9, 2006, 04:25 PM   #66
pickpocket
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Quote:
Az Qkr:
I've taken pics of people with it on a camera at 50 yds that the judge could ID as being that person in court. It works just fine for me on the 14 or with the camera attached.
ok, so you've got solid PID at approx 50 meters using a mounted anpvs 4. You apparently have one of the better maintained ANPVS 4's...lol. As it is, I wasn't commenting on the image quality....it's quite useful for S&R.

Off subject: On an M14 that doesn't provide me with a huge tactical advantage...if I've got a long-range rifle engaging at 50 meters then I have bigger problems.

On subject: At that range you're better off using a set of 7B's and the IR laser. It's accurate and exponentially quicker. Not saying it's not a useful tool...I just don't think it 'owns'
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Old January 9, 2006, 05:30 PM   #67
Az Qkr
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pickpocket,

Of course it is maintained and recharged regularly as needed.

I only mentioned the 50 meters for the camera. I would be good to go on the rifle well past 200. The rifle probably wouldn't be out unless I had to hunt or hunker for some reason anyway.

Stay sharp

Robin
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Old January 9, 2006, 08:05 PM   #68
matthew temkin
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Obwain...
The fact that I am no longer on your ignore list is progress enough.
Maybe we can share some range time soon and see where we stand.
In fact, I may be doing a class in Fort Collins, Colorado this March.
You may be surprised that we are doing 80% the same thing, but using different terms.
PS...I must assume that one of your friends trained with me in the past.
May I ask where and when?
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Old January 9, 2006, 10:53 PM   #69
Skyguy
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Quote:
I carry a tritium front sight on my g17, no tritium rear sight.
It is very easy to know where the end of the barrel is by seeing the front sight glow and using QK out to distances past 30 feet at dusk.
I did the same thing for years, so I definitely know it can work. Cutting edge at the time.

But once I used the lasergrips in low light/no light, I was sold. The laser can be put right on the target without ever using the tritium sight or the barrel. Reasonably, out to 150 feet or so.
You can keep your total attention and focus on the target and the red dot. It's not necessary to even look at the gun.
It is an absolutely amazing piece of technology.

I now use the combination of lasergrips for dusk to dawn, indoors and cloudy days.....and a fiber optic front sight for very bright daylight.

It works for me. Best setup I've ever had.
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Old January 10, 2006, 01:37 AM   #70
riverkeeper
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I wanted to practice some QK and CT yesterday but like the Greeks said, 'To make the gods laugh just tell them your plans.'

Skyguy--
learned some things in your posts and on the sites you listed so that I'm also looking for a local range where the laser instructions tape is either available to view or for sale.

Virtually all of my concealed carry is in poor to fair light conditions and I've never shot in those conditions (except during & nearby but not directly in the VN war) - that will soon change.

I've mentioned my initial disappointment with CT to the extent I did a thread here in November about alternatives for dark conditions - pretty much settled on a XS Express Sight prior to this thread and my very limited QK experience. The front sight on my J frame is almost invisible in low light.

Thanks to an extraordinarily crappy opthamologist I have unusual vision issues so CT and QK are not an 'either-or' situation.... most probably a 'both' situation. I am looking forward to trying both.

I started this thread and expected mostly divergent, strong and opinionated and hopefully useful responses from P&S and sight shooters. While spirited, it was larger and mostly better than that.
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Last edited by riverkeeper; January 10, 2006 at 02:44 AM.
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Old January 10, 2006, 11:17 AM   #71
Skyguy
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Quote:
Virtually all of my concealed carry is in poor to fair light conditions.
I have unusual vision issues so CT and QK are not an 'either-or' situation.... most probably a 'both' situation. I am looking forward to trying both.
I believe a "both situation" is the answer.

On a personal note, I use both lasergrips and point shooting. With both systems you've got all your bases covered especially in stressed out, low light/no light situations.

Target/vision issues are ended with the laser. Old eyes work again.

I fully support QK/point shooting. At eyeball range that's how we'll all shoot, so learning and practicing and ingraining the technique is a no-brainer.

But I've also learned the terrific advantages of having a laser equipped pistol. I can visually scan an area, totally focus on the target/threat, never look at my weapon, shoot from ridiculous positions....and hit wherever the red dot is.

My reasoning tells me to take every advantage available in a shootout....and the laser is a definite advantage.
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Old January 10, 2006, 03:14 PM   #72
Az Qkr
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Good to see you here Dave.

Hope you had a great holiday season and are well.

Did someone say slower?

Heading to Arlington Natl Cemetery for a service tomorrow for one of my good friends in SF who we lost in the box on the 30th. One of our finest.

Keep the faith.

Brownie
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Old January 11, 2006, 08:29 PM   #73
leadbutt
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Sorry to hear Brownie,, raise one for me

R.I.P.
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Old January 13, 2006, 11:32 AM   #74
Skyguy
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Lasergrips give you an immediate and decisive advantage nothing else can equal. They provide superior weapons capabilities for self-defense, law enforcement and military applications.
Here's how:

Immediate Targeting:

Once properly sighted in, the laser dot marks exactly where the bullet will strike, regardless of how the gun is being held. It's just that simple. No other sighting device offers this capability.
Raise the gun, grip it like you normally would to shoot, and a pressure-sensitive switch activates the laser. Now you're ready to squeeze off a round, right on target, every time.

Low-Light Situations:

It's a fact that over 80% of incidents involving guns occur at night. Burglars, robberies, and assaults are much more likely to happen after dark, and that's exactly when Lasergrips really command an advantage.
Using Lasergrips, low light accuracy and speed increase more than with any other sighting tool, including night sights and even tactical lights.

Movement:

It's also a fact that in most life-threatening incidents, a person trying to hurt you isn't going to be standing still. And neither will you. Firing a handgun at a moving target, or while moving yourself, is extremely difficult. In competitions, and real-life situations, Lasergrips make shooting while moving faster and more accurate for even the best shooters.

Compensating For "Fight Or Flight" Response

Our natural response in a life-threatening situation is to flee, or stand our ground and fight. If we're forced to fight, our bodies respond automatically by pumping adrenaline for energy and narrowing our field of vision to focus the specific threat.
Fine muscle control needed to align the sights of a handgun becomes extremely difficult, if not impossible. Lasergrips compensate for this by enabling you to stay focused on the threat and accurately aim the gun without having to rely on fine motor skills.

Armed Encounters:

Nobody wants to use a weapon against another. But should a dangerous situation call for protecting yourself or your family, Lasergrips provide an immediate and decisive advantage. Thousands of law enforcement and military officers around the world have proven that Lasergrips can dramatically improve the outcome of an armed conflict.

Deterrent:

The threat of being shot is a strong deterrent. Nothing projects this threat as effectively as the bright red dot of a laser beam. Police and military users consistently report that Lasergrips de-escalate hostile situations by dramatically illustrating the consequences of continued hostile actions. Law-abiding citizens can have this same advantage, and can stop a threat without ever firing their gun.

Accountability:

In today's lawsuit-frenzied society, anyone deciding to point and fire a gun at another person, whether a law enforcement officer or citizen, must consider the consequences beyond the incident itself. Was it justified? Did the shooter take every precaution to ensure the safety of others? Lasergrips can help make good decisions because there is no ambiguity about where the gun is pointed and what will happen if it is fired.

Handgun Training:

Lasergrips are the best tool ever developed for learning or teaching handgun basics such as trigger control and sight picture. The laser vividly shows exactly where the gun is aiming at all times. Slight deviations from smooth trigger pulls and improper alignment of traditional sights, are very easy to see and correct.

Recreational Shooting:

Lasergrips are a great accessory for the recreational shooter. After all, the fun of shooting is hitting the target, right? Whether your range is indoors, or a safe outdoor location, Lasergrips will positively help you hit the target more frequently and consistently.

Handgun Hunting:

Hunters everywhere are discovering the thrill of handgun hunting. The same immediate targeting capability Lasergrips offer every shooter is perfect for close-quarters contact with a wild hog, boar or bear, especially during low-light morning and evening time. Our HogHunterâ„¢ models are designed for large-caliber handguns popular among hunters.

--Crimson Trace
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Old January 13, 2006, 01:06 PM   #75
Harley Quinn
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Kind of funny really

Both the tech and the sight are good for you.

I was one of the first if not the first to get my service revolver set up with a 'night sight', this was back in the early 70's. It was great for night shooting.

I worked mostly night shifts and really liked the idea had my model 15-3 worked on by a guy who was doing it and I really liked it. Boy you can't believe the controversy I was in with guy's who said I have been doing it for 11 years and blah blah blah you don't need it. Wrong.

Both are good the tech and the sight, back then it was just on the gun only the shooter could see it front and rear glowed, one white the other red.

With the new tech it is even better, pretty pricy but if I was carring and was active LEO. I would definitly have one of these laser dudes on my shooter you could count on it.

I have a friend who just recently had one put on his shooter (he is active LEO), we will be going to the range soon and I will shoot his and see how it is (Glock 22).

Take it easy, it is just a matter of life and death (yours) no biggie . I believe it is a real step in the right direction for accuracy for the guy who does not and will not train. So he will shoot better. That's good..

HQ
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