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Old January 6, 2006, 12:12 AM   #26
Sweatnbullets
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Superman and Harley, those are perfect examples of why people need threat focus skills. If you can not get to the sights and you do not have threat focus skills, you will revert to spray and pray.

Spray and pray is not a threat focus skill. It is what a "sights only" guy will do when the reality sets in that they do not have the necessary skills to make the hits, while being focused on the person that is trying to take their life.
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Old January 6, 2006, 12:17 AM   #27
Az Qkr
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"The names change but the song remains the same....remember fistfire"

Yes I do, thats not the same song you are listening to here though. That statement would lead me to believe you do lack the understanding necessary to hold an intelligent conversation on the subject of QK or threat focused methodologies and tend to lump them all together.

"But if you are standing in a weaver/iso stance with the weapon at eye level.....that is sighted fire in my book."

And if the weapon is at that level, you probably should be using the sights.

What about not having sights on the gun and the gun 4-8 inches below eye level and still making the hits? Still sighted fire to you?

"Where I generally see the true point shooting (hip shooting) advocates flounder is when they have to make a longer range shot under truly sub-optimum conditions. Mess with their stance and they can't get "in the zone"

My guess?, You don't know any true threat focused advocates nor have seen any use their skills.

Any "true point shooting", as you put it [ from the hip ] will only be used when it is appropriate to do so. Which leads me back to having a hard time believing you have seen true pointshooters anywhere if that is what you actually saw someone attempting to do from the hip.

My guess?, You don't know any true threat focused advocates nor have seen any use their skills.

"Floundering" is usually caused by a lack of understanding when and where certain techniques would be beneficial on the street in a defensive situaion involving a firearm, and using something at an inappropriate time when another technique is the correct solution.

"Provide them with a very obscured target ...same problem...generally"

Thats not the time to use hip shooting.

"Reality is that you may not be able to get to your sights and to be a truely well rounded shooter you need threat focus skills out past contact distances"

Good for you....but.......

That is not my reality"

It would seem, it's not your reality because your opinion is based on presumptions and not any real experience in threat focused methods out there.

No one is advocating not using the sights when appropriate. No one is advocating removing the sights. No one is advocating that sights are not a necessity at times and should not be used when possible.

Your statements seem to counter point comments not made or advocated by anyone here.

True threat focused shooters [ what you call point shooters ] know both how to use their sights effectively, how to use the tool in their hand without making use of sights to get hits, and when the situation dictates they do not have to, all based on time and distance requirements.

In your own words, "That is what training is for"

Robin Brown

Last edited by Az Qkr; January 6, 2006 at 02:15 AM.
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Old January 6, 2006, 02:55 AM   #28
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Steve2276 quoted me:
“I suspect not as the sights are used but not in focus and distances implied are about 5ft to several times that. The sights are used, but different from what I have come across before.”

Thanks for the helpful clarifying edit comment -- substitute ‘barrel is’ for ‘sights are’. It was actually more like ‘barrel awarness.’ My hasty words got in the way of communication.

The snub and I will play this tune again in a few days. My only concern about QK is that it may degrade sight aligned and FSP action, but I really doubt it. Too many personal sports experiences suggest otherwise.

‘Four legs good, two legs baaaaad.'
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Old January 6, 2006, 09:43 AM   #29
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Riverkeeper

I like to go to the range alone, I focus, I shoot, I practice.
I is not we and you are, alone. ( I said that just a moment ago on another thread but it is true...to the bone.)

Sports and all is fine, fire teams are great. But in that moment of time and truth, it is you and your ability.

Brings to mind Sgt. Ralph Gillete RIP. He was one tough hombre and died of natural causes. A True LAPD legend. I am honered to have worked with him, he was one with nerves of steel and basic raw courage.

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Old January 6, 2006, 09:58 PM   #30
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Sounds interesting

I am definitely going to have to try this ASAP.
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Old January 6, 2006, 10:46 PM   #31
Sweatnbullets
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If you have any questions at all k9lwt, you know how to get a hold on me.

Here is a little something I wrote up once I had the training and the knowledge.

Breaking it Down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Threat focus shooting is something that is best done without thinking about it. It is a technique that is best shown, then done. That is the truth of the matter, but because of this it is often seen as some sort of parlor trick or worse, something that is not accurate or dependable. I would like to take an approach to this that I have not seen before. That approach being, to try to break down why threat focus shooting actually works. By breaking it down to it's "bare bones" we could take some of the mystique away.

There are many elements that go into accurate threat focused shooting and by knowing exactly what those elements are we will see that we are actually using a very well developed aiming system. By knowing that it is a well developed aiming system, the confidence in the technique will soar and when the time comes that you need it, it will be there like a trusted friend.

First lets look at the elements of sighted fire.

(1)Kinesthetic alignment

(2)Sight alignment

(3)Sight picture

This is a very simple and highly effective form of sighting in. But it is also something that is, in the most part, done on a conscious level.


Now let us look at the elements of threat focus shooting.

(1) Understanding and ability to square up.

(2) Understanding and ability to use the centerline.

(3) Understanding and ability to draw "Parallel to the ground."

(4) Understanding and ability to use the nose index.

(6) Understanding and ability to use a body index.

(5) Kinesthetic alignment.

(7) Use of peripheral vision verification.

(8) Use of ones natural ability to point your finger at an object.

(9) Use of ones natural hand/eye coordination.

(10) Absolute confidence, knowing this all adds up to a very accurate system.

When broken down into it's elements it hardly looks mystical anymore. It seems to be a highly developed aiming system. Another thing to take into consideration is that almost all of this is done on a subconscious level. These are elements that you do not have to think about. That is why threat focused shooting is best done without thinking about it. Once you know the elements, trained with the elements, it all comes together in a micro second with zero conscious thought. This is why threat focused shooting excels in dynamic confrontations. It is a natural human response.

Thoughts, comments?
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Old January 7, 2006, 11:24 AM   #32
Skyguy
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Quote:
Thoughts, comments?
My "thoughts and "comments" are that you guys are lagging behind the self defense shooting curve.
Willing to argue minutiae, but hardly with cutting edge ideas....especially the guys with the old eyes.

Why am I such a proficient self defense shooter?

Because, with regular combined practice and surprise targets, I point shoot out to about 15 feet, laser sight shoot out to about 50 feet and sight shoot out to distances that I would tend not to engage unless I had no other choice.

Recreational/game shooters are concerned with rigid form, practiced stances, breathing and other trivial details that have little to do with sudden self defense scenarios that could likely involve dodging bullets.

Point shooters/laser sight shooters - are concerned with getting as many hits on target as possible, day or night, in the shortest amount of time and even in compromised shooting positions. (e.g. on one's side, back, belly...around, under and over obstacles and simply 'shooting the laser dot')

So, let's all get on the edu-train and get our tactics up to 21st century speed. Live and learn, fellas!

Y'all can start here:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv

.
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Old January 7, 2006, 12:23 PM   #33
Sweatnbullets
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Skyguy, Your statements are based on ignorance. You have no idea who I am, what I do, or what I've done. You seem to think that you are head and shoulders above everyone else with your little regimen. That makes you appear to be very arrogant.

Why not try to shed your ignorance by asking some people some questions before you start making asinine statements, since you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Old January 7, 2006, 12:47 PM   #34
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Sweatnbullets, Your statements are based on ignorance.

You have no idea who I am, what I do, or what I've done. You seem to think that you are head and shoulders above everyone else with your little regimen. That makes you appear to be very arrogant.

Why not try to shed your ignorance by asking some people some questions before you start making asinine statements, since you have no idea what you are talking about.

Go reread what I wrote, learn a little....and don't let your ego get the best of ya!
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Old January 7, 2006, 01:26 PM   #35
Sweatnbullets
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"My "thoughts and "comments" are that you guys are lagging behind the self defense shooting curve.
Willing to argue minutiae, but hardly with cutting edge ideas....especially the guys with the old eyes."

A broad brush statement (you guys.) That insult peoples intelligence (lagging behind the self defense curve.) That shows your arrogance (hardly with cutting edge ideas.) Then back into ignorance (especially with old eyes.)

Three of the four quotes speak for themselves. The fourth about cutting edge is ridiculous. It is my opinion that almost everything there is to know about fighting (including gunfighting) has already been known a long time ago. Cutting edge has just been taking old techniques and ideas and repackaging and renaming them.

If you think that all we (you guys) do is point shoot, you are seriously mistaken.

Since you think I did not understand your post....that is probably because it was not written well. Did you not just insult "you guys?"

How about you reread your post and clarify exactly what you are trying to say without the broad brush approach.
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Old January 7, 2006, 01:41 PM   #36
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Gentlemen, keep it civil and impersonal, please! This is a good thread, but I'll be forced to Quick Kill it if the personal attacks continue .
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Old January 7, 2006, 02:53 PM   #37
riverkeeper
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Skyguy—
The video on CT showed some great and difficult shooting by what appear be fine instructors.

A few months ago after messing with CT on the store’s blue plastic faux handgun decided to wait some more. It ‘seemed’ FSP and even sight alignment could be achieved as fast in the store, BUT WITHOUT ANY TRAINING, ANY IDEA OF WHAT I WAS DOING OR SPECIFIC EXPERIENCE. It was of course not a fair test and the advantages of CT during dark situations, strong hand injuries and impossible body positions are persuasive.

I’d already decided to rent a CT handgun tomorrow at the range as well as do some real QK drill – off hand, awkward positions etc. My assumptions is that after some intelligent practice, CT might ‘shine’.

In order to get the CT handgun into a shooting position, a point shoot/semi sighted -type presentation initially seems appropriate – tho’ anything that works….works. Any quick suggestions or tips?

BTW – it also appears that QK can be ‘done on the run’, in tough positions and in almost dark conditions….tho’ probably not as accurately... I do not know.

Thanks for your contribution.
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Old January 7, 2006, 02:56 PM   #38
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I believe that all aspects of shooting must be embraced in order to reach the fullest level; there is no one magic technique superior to everything. There are times when using sights is more effective, and there are times when pointshooting is more effective. Learn to use both. It's no different than when people ask "should I have one eye open or both eyes open when engaging a target."

The ability to adapt quickly to a situation and respond with the best technique quickly and efficiently is at the heart of all schools of shooting. We'd be better served to humble ourselves and try instead to understand the benefits of all techniques instead of degrading one over the other. Understanding comes only through experience; experience comes only through practice.

Theories do not suffice in combat.
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Old January 7, 2006, 06:07 PM   #39
Skyguy
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Quote:
Any quick suggestions or tips?
Yes. Get a CT Lasergrip on your gun....and you'll never look back.

They're in use by the military and many, many agencies. Lasergrips are the new technology that works.

Of course, it's important that you be proficient in the basic fundamentals of shooting, but the Lasergrips save a lot of time/money spent on redundant training that differs in name only.

This will help with understanding:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/5things.pdf

This holds a wealth of information:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/

This tells it like it is:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv


.
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Old January 7, 2006, 09:16 PM   #40
Az Qkr
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"with regular combined practice and surprise targets, I point shoot out to about 15 feet, laser sight shoot out to about 50 feet and sight shoot out to distances that I would tend not to engage unless I had no other choice."

Interestingly noted above.

"Regular combined practice" to be able to pointshoot to 15 feet, laser shoot to 50 feet and sight shoot out to distances you would not normally engage unless left no choice.

Had a dentist in today from Tucson for QK training. In two hours he was good to go to 30 feet without sights using my sightless 45 gov model. Hits were at 90% or better at that distance.

The truck was 46 feet from the plates we were banging and on several reloads of mags, he wanted to try it from there. 90% or better from the truck as well, with a gun that had NO sights on it after the 3rd hour of training [ the confidence level Sweatnbullets mentions as #10 was increasing exponentially at that point for him ].

Two torso plates were being hit with mundane repeatability at 3 hours from 15-46 feet by this guy who I considered a "fair" shooter at best.
Fair in estimation as I had to adjust his handhold, and trigger control before he could progress to where he was at today with me.

Not a bad thing, just something he needed to work on and be tweeked as he had not had any formal instruction in any handgun previously.

Then I worked him on hip shooting at 6-8 feet from the draw on the two plates. He needed some time to figure this out but in another hour he was at about 75-80% success drawing to one and swinging to the other, staying at the hip.

"even in compromised shooting positions."

Interestingly noted above.

The last part of the day he was shooting behind his back without turning around, and learned how to turn the 45 into a slow full auto emptying the mag quickly.

We got back to my house to ungear and clean the guns and I discovered he had a laser in the left rubber grip panel of his defender 45. Had not seen it all day until he lit it up on the garage wall checking/verifying the QK technique with the laser.

I asked him which he thought would be faster and he stated he was faster today with QK than he ever had been with the laser. He also stated the laser was very hard to see during the day and he had decided to use his sights during the day and the laser in low light if needed.

So, here we have a fair shooter, once corrected in handhold and trigger control who was hitting 90% or better out to 30 feet in hours. Then hitting 90% or better at 46 feet in another hour when his confidence in his ability to hit without sights had increased.

Lasers can fail, they are mechanical devices. One can become dependant on them to the detriment of actual skills building in some areas.

IMO, lasers are useful training aid in the development of ones handhold, trigger control and eye/hand coordination. Useful perhaps in low light, but certainly not any more useful in total darkness than iron sights.

They are not something I need to rely on past a certain distance, say 15 feet. They are not something I need to rely on to 30 feet, nor even 60 feet [ admittedly I have a lot of practice at this in the last 24 years of using QK ].

Lasers, good. Good crutches, like sights. There is a time and place for sights, and a time to go to guns without them. Those who have the knowledge of QK have no need for sights or lasers to distances others may deem impossible.

Look to the student today, in 4 hours he was 90% or better out to 46 feet. I was surprised, not because QK worked out to that distance reliably [ which I know it does ], but surprised that his "fair" skills in weapon handling could be brought to that proficiency level in half a day.

Learning to rely and use your own skills seems to me to be more reliable than a mechanical device with all it's inherent liability of not being there when you need it.

Murphy follows us everywhere. The less one relies on anything other than their own skills and training, the harder it is for Murphy to interject himself at the most inopportune time.

When yours or anothers life hangs in the balance, would you rather rely on your own skills and training to survive or the mechanical device of a laser which you may not be able to "see" when you have trained to need it?

Afterall, one lives or dies by the choices they make in life. Choose your paths wisely folks.

Robin Brown
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Old January 7, 2006, 11:40 PM   #41
pickpocket
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You know guys, truth be told they're all just tools for each individual's old bag of tricks. People who have been there/done that will tell you - in my experience - that you can learn a little something applicable from everything, and you'll end up using all of it, in one form or another, at some point.
There is no good, better, best -- except in theory and conversation. There is only accurate and inaccurate, hit and miss; it's all about training, experience, and application. What works for one may not always work for another, and those people who won't admit any other theory's validity are going to wish you had more tools in the bag if you ever find yourself in a nasty situation.

For those of you who discount laser-sights and other technology, remember that technology is a good thing, especially if it enhances a shooter's skill. But a shooter should never forsake training and fundamentals for technology..a mistake of novice shooters.

The book is a great place to start, but it can never tell you what's best all the time in every situation.

Just my two cents.

(sorry for the mulitple posts...my broswer freaked out)
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Old January 7, 2006, 11:54 PM   #42
Az Qkr
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"For those of you who discount laser-sights and other technology, remember that technology is a good thing, especially if it enhances a shooter's skill."

Thats exactly what I was saying here:

"IMO, lasers are useful training aid in the development of ones handhold, trigger control and eye/hand coordination. Useful perhaps in low light,"

"But a shooter should never forsake training and fundamentals for technology..a mistake of novice shooters."

"Thats exactly what I was saying here:

"Lasers can fail, they are mechanical devices. One can become dependant on them to the detriment of actual skills building in some areas."

Robin Brown
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Old January 7, 2006, 11:56 PM   #43
pickpocket
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What I was saying was:

If the shoe fits....
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Old January 8, 2006, 12:03 AM   #44
Skyguy
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Robin,

Nothing personal...and no offense meant, but your post seems to be a crock of marketing in the pursuit of 'students'.

In my post I clearly said...it's important that you be proficient in the basic fundamentals of shooting, but the Lasergrips save a lot of time/money spent on redundant training that differs in name only.

So, let me put it this way: once a shooter becomes proficient in the basic fundamentals of shooting....the laser shows exactly where the bullet will hit when fired from any angle or position. Period.

No sight, method, stance or voodoo is needed. Just put the dot on the target and that's where the bullet goes.

Bottom line for me is that I'll stick to my method of combined point shooting, laser sights and sights.....because it works.
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Old January 8, 2006, 12:13 AM   #45
Az Qkr
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Skyguy:

Nothing personal taken.

I don't need to market myself, read the threads from SNB and Steve, students who now have the knowledge of what it is I can do to bring anyone [ not just students ] to a level of skills without using anything but their natural ability.

"So, let me put it this way: once a shooter becomes proficient in the basic fundamentals of shooting....the laser shows exactly where the bullet will hit when fired from any angle or position. Period."

And of course I said the same thing here:

""IMO, lasers are useful training aid in the development of ones handhold, trigger control and eye/hand coordination. Useful perhaps in low light"

I think we are on the same page here.

Bottom line for me is that I'll stick to my method of combined threat focused shooting and sights.....because it has worked for 25 years as well.

If I was marketing myself, I would have started the thread here, I'm only here at the behest of one of my students to answer questions the thread starter had as I AM the one who would be able to answer anything about QK.

Robin Brown

Last edited by Az Qkr; January 8, 2006 at 12:54 AM.
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Old January 8, 2006, 12:38 AM   #46
Sweatnbullets
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It has become obvious that I misunderstood skyguys first post. The first paragraph really threw me off after he quoted me. It felt like a personal attack, but I guess I was wrong.

My apologies to all, especially skyguy, and capt charlie.
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Old January 8, 2006, 10:00 AM   #47
matthew temkin
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The saga continues....
Hey Obwain, long time no see.
SOS....
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Old January 8, 2006, 12:39 PM   #48
Skyguy
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Lasergrips deliver instant and accurate target acquisition for all shooters and from awkward and compromised positions.

They are now widely accepted by the military and hundreds of advanced LE agencies as a very useful and effective tactical sighting system both indoors and out, dusk, day and night.

Lasergrips own the night.
They easily excell over iron and tritium sights and over sightless techniques in low light and no light situations. They function very well in daylight.

FYI.....This is a defense training/information video:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv

.
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Old January 8, 2006, 01:00 PM   #49
Az Qkr
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Skyguy:

We're all very happy that you like the CT lasers on your firearms and find value in their use.

"no light situations"? Nothing short of NV equipment works in those conditions. If you can't see in a no light scenario, you have no business shooting someone. It's called target identification/verification by most, and your laser will not identify or verify anything as a threat.

Nothing personal...and no offense meant, but your posts seem to be a crock of marketing in the pursuit of 'convincing people they need lasers on their firearms'

Robin Brown
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Old January 8, 2006, 01:33 PM   #50
superman
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I have a CT laser on my sig 226. The really only thing that i have found is that its a great intimidation tool. When a suspect sees that on his chest, they know where that bullet is going to hit. Most of the time they get thier hands in the air or fall face first.

I have found that target aquisition is a bit slower than conventional point shooting. I focused more on the laser than the target (threat). I actually shot a bit off when used on the range. Dont get me wrong bullet placement was perfect but i started to rush shots. I finally turned it off and thats how I shoot at the range- point fire and iron sight fire. I leave the laser off. I do keep it on for patrol.
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