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Old January 2, 2006, 01:34 AM   #1
riverkeeper
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Front Sight Press AND Quick Kill??

After successfully and quickly FSP double tapping 4 cylinders of 38+p thru the snub into 4 in diameter circles at 20 ft last week at the range I tried my uninformed interuptation of Quick Kill. Discussed here briefly a few weeks ago, more detail here, scroll down a bunch--
http://www.pointshooting.com/qk.htm

After a few dry fire points I put 3 cylinders thru …while quickly double tapping. I could not believe it! Pattern was in a 5 1/2 in diameter centered pattern but 3 inches high – except for a slightly jerked (3 in right) a flyer on the 3rd shot while my conscious brain did not trust the approach.

It is common to hear here ‘you’ll shoot as you are trained.’ That I believe is generally true but as demonstrated during many police shootings a whole lot of spray and pray goes on during surprise-startle situations. I like and trust FSP for other than virtual contact situations BUT I did like QK’s speed and that it uses the natural tendency to visually fix on and point to targets without the need to come back to the front sight to go. It seems we could use QK at modest distance (say 10-30ft) when speed is needed and FSP or sights beyond that as possible. I have not experimented beyond this.

Unlike me, many of you are instructors &/or highly trained and experienced so I am curious what you think about it.
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Old January 2, 2006, 01:54 AM   #2
Harley Quinn
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5-7-and 10 yds is fine for the QK

But like you say at some point or distance you need to aim. (with sights)

The QK is really a good thing for the guy who is a gunfighter (LEO) and the avid shooter or Home defense person. So I think it is a good thing to practice it and shoot well. With that tech.

Heck time is important in a gunfight. So is accuracy, at some point or distance accuracy takes over. If you can hit a one foot circle at 50 feet with the QK method you are going to be very deadly.

Since there are plenty of stats and everyone has some, I believe that 80% of the time gunfights occur in an area less than 10 feet.
So Practice QK 80% of the time. 10 yds and closer.

Harley
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Old January 2, 2006, 10:08 AM   #3
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I do remember a version of QK being taught in the Army, Close quarter combat drill. I've never taken the course though. The point though is to point and shoot not to aim and shoot. Good post.
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Old January 2, 2006, 04:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Close quarter combat drill. I've never taken the course though. The point though is to point and shoot not to aim and shoot
I spent a sizeable chunk of my military career doing 'CQB' - Close Quarters Battle - and we were trained to always use sights; if you release a shot without them you are unlikely to achieve your objective.

I was initially taught a variation of the 'Grant-Taylor Method', which places the body in such an uncomfortable firing position that I was relieved when we started using the Weaver Stance. The fantastic point about this stance and how it develops is that we stand with the pistol at the navel, in the two handed grip; for each double tap encounter we would punch both arms out and once extended fire twice, then recover to the waist.

It does two things:

Develops fantastic muscle memory
Enables you to shoot at any point from navel to fully extended, because the pistol barrel is horizontal contstantly.

Often in CQB, targets may come up 'in your face' and you will be shooting as the pistol is coming up, but you have not yet acquired the sights.

Is that what you deem as 'Quick Kill'?
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Old January 2, 2006, 05:10 PM   #5
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British Soldier
I've included what what Robin Brown wrote about QK and omitted the intro and rifle part. Is it CQC? I suspect not as the sights are used but not in focus and distances implied are about 5ft to several times that. The sights are used, but different from what I have come across before.
CQC is a critical issue for my situation -- my experience with that is the Rentetion Positions. I need training in that for My Fair City's gang country. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191890

http://www.pointshooting.com/qk.htm

AIMED Point Shooting or P&S For Self Defense
Quick Kill Shooting - By: Robin Brown - AKA - Brownie

"......QK with pistols:
Right now, I want you to try to do this.
Find a light switch across the room. Any object at about that distance will do.
Then, with the light switch or object in your view, raise your arm/hand and point your finger naturally at the object, like you are scolding a dog.
Looking at your target, you also should be able to see in your peripheral vision, the end of the finger that's pointing at it.
When you point, you naturally do not attempt to sight or aim your finger. It will be somewhat below your eye level in your peripheral vision.
Now, place the end of that finger about 2 inches below your target. Move your arm, NOT JUST THE FINGER.
Then, lower your head and try to sight along the length of it. You will be on the object.
Raise your head and you will see the end of the finger still about 2 inches below the object.
The reference point can be different depending on the person and gun being used. Many handguns have different natural pointing abilities. Just start out at 2 inches below the target initially.
If you find you are above the target when checking the finger, you may need to use three inches below, as the reference point for you initially. Conversely, if you are low, you may need to raise the reference point a little.
Once you find the reference point for you, you can point at anything using this QK technique and know that you are hitting the object automatically, and when not looking at anything but the target.
Your finger will be in your peripheral vision but not looked at.
Now go get a handgun, make sure it's empty, and do the same thing on the same object across the room. Use the end of the barrel now instead of the end of your finger.
Once you have referenced the end of the barrel about 2 inches below the target, DON'T MOVE THE GUN, and lower your head and check where the sights are pointing.
WOW-------did I just hear you say WOW?
As above, when you could see the end of the finger pointing at target in your peripheral vision while focusing on the target, you will now see the end of the barrel while looking at the target.
Once you have tweaked the reference point for that gun, you can repeat with followup shots as soon as the reference has been reacquired peripherally.
You have not looked at the gun or sights, just the target. And the gun will be about 6 inches below your eye level, more or less.
Some will achieve this immediately, while others will have issues and questions.
I hope that I have explained this well enough for most. It's much easier to show and guide one, than just describe QK.
As with most things, practice can improve performance, and the same is true with QK.
You can practice at home or on the line. Draw, raise the gun up into your peripheral vision, acquire the referenced distance from the end of the barrel to the target, and dryfire or blast it for real.
Try different distances from 3 feet to 20 yds. The reference point can and should be tweaked up or down until you know where you need to keep it at those distances with that handgun.
I've carried this knowledge of QK since 81, but have never put it out to the general public before. It works. And I suspect that many have come to the same technique with practice and shooting over time.
Brownie
..........
Mr. Brown AKA Brownie served in the United States Marine Corps from 1969-71 and holds certifications in Swat tactics and Swat Team Leader. He also was trained in counter-insurgency by General Mitchell WerBell of OSS fame. And he has overseen security operations for major corporations throughout the United States, and is a licensed private detective.
Brownie has worked for police departments as an auxiliary police officer and has received certification from the Massachusetts Criminal Justice Training Council. He also instructs civilians and police in advanced firearms techniques and defensive baton skills. On his last assignment he served as a defensive tactics instructor and specialized in defensive knife tactics. He looks forward to questions and discussing your defensive and training needs.
His e-mail is: arizonaqkr@yahoo.com
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Old January 2, 2006, 07:35 PM   #6
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What do I think? I think it's a load of crap. Respectfully. There are many so called "experts" out there that were "ex" this or "ex" that. Too many black ops ninja know it alls out there. Don't get suckered into this baloney. Double taps, hammers, quick kill, or whatever you choose to call it, will never be better than steady, aimed fire. Someone around here once said that every bullet has a lawyer attached to it.

I personally know of many LEO, active duty and ex military instructors, etc....
That don't know squat.

I admire and respect that you are trying to better yourself and be prepared. Please do so wisely.
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Old January 2, 2006, 10:51 PM   #7
Sweatnbullets
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I was trained in Quick Kill (QK) by Robin Browne last October in Tucson. It is an amazing system. I was also trained in three other point shooting systems at the class, but QK is my default two handed threat focused shooting system. It extendes the range of threat focused shooting well past what is possible with Quick Fire, Fairbairn/Sykes, or Applegate methods of point shooting.

For dynamic movement, it is my opinion that QK is the absolute best option for making hits. My ability to make hits while moving dynamically has improved by leaps and bounds due to QK.

If you guys are interested, I could see if I can get Robin over here. He always has time for those that want to take there skills to the next level.
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Old January 3, 2006, 02:54 PM   #8
Az Qkr
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Sweatnbullets was kind enough to send me this link, thanks SNB.

riverkeeper, if you have any questions shoot me an email. Happy to assist you in any way I can with your endeavor to explore this system.

BobK: Is that anyway to talk about someone whose background you know nothing about, ?

Relative QK, interesting you have such strong convictions and yet know absolutely nothing about that which you speak.

You know what they say about opinions.

Robin Brown
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Old January 3, 2006, 11:17 PM   #9
Sweatnbullets
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riverkeeper, here is a link to the review of the course I attended in October. It starts on post #33.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...hp?t=45&page=2
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Old January 4, 2006, 12:42 AM   #10
Harley Quinn
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I have used this system for years and years

The LE org I came from used this and a little added benefit of stepping to the left and bending at both knees, then your head is in line with the sights to continue to fire if needed for a sighted picture.

Works great and all the time you are firing and moving and hitting what you are shooting at. Like I said, have been doing this even before R.B. went into the Corps.

In fact I was showing Rich, Ashley and Johnny the way I did it. I don't believe they thought much of it, but it does work. LOL memories you have to love um...

Harley
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Old January 4, 2006, 01:37 AM   #11
riverkeeper
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Sweatnbullets—
It was your post in early Dec that started my Googling. Also found the Army’s unavailable manual on QK on Amazon.

BobK –
Got’cha. PT Barnum was right. AND ‘There are solutions to every problem which are nice neat plausible and WRONG.’ I know, most of those crappy theoretical solutions were mine.
BUT finally at 60 most of my working solutions are empirically derived…based on the sometimes painful experiences of me or others evaluated with humility and an open mind. I wish you well.
SO based on MY future experience with QK, possibly assisted by others, I will determine if it works for me. ALL of my shooting is directed to self defense. I warm up with aligned sighted fire, transition to Front Sight Press also at 5, 10, 20 and 40 feet. Then finish with my version of unsighted fire at 5 and 10 feet.
QK may or may not join my quiver but based on its apparent speed and naturalness, it does at first glance seem to fill a useful niche.
I do not agree with those who train exclusively with one method…..In order to excel at any sport I think it is important to add some breath to depth of ability (not to confusion of course).

Mr Brown—
Thank you for sharing the QK info on the web. It was smooth and almost scary Zen shooting experience. I read your web about 2 weeks before shooting and after re-reading assume correction could be ‘seeing’ less of the barrel and/or dropping the POA and more experience with it.

Spouse works for one of the airlines serving Tucson so I may get to one of your seminars if things progress…I’m esp. interested in shooting while moving because almost all of my ‘close encounters’ involve 2-3 bg’s and would require movement for evasion and to cover. The contents of your classes I note cover this.
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Old January 4, 2006, 12:21 PM   #12
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Harley:

Semper Fi

riverkeeper:

You are welcome sir. Others have mentioned the zen of this as well. QK opens the door to ones natural abilities and so it appears to be as you described to many. The mind is the limiting factor.

If you get out this way, shoot me an email, we'll hook up if you like.

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Old January 4, 2006, 12:55 PM   #13
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I fully endorse body indexed sighting for contact distances

But IMHO....the different "systems" mentioned all strike me as being a little like diet plans

People looking for something easier...not really better

YMMV
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Old January 4, 2006, 03:08 PM   #14
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Obiwan

I have used this exclusivly with the handgun and shotgun at nothing much further then 10 yds. But here is the deal if you are hitting good at 10 yards the bullets and the buckshot do not know they are going to travel further on the same course and hit very well at 40 and 50 yds, they just do.

(do this set up your target at 10 yds, (paper) go out 40 or 50 yds and set up another big sheet of cardboard or plywood behind the target, shoot at the 10 yrd target slow and steady best you can do)..Check it out it is fun to see what happens...

I think it is a good system, I practice it. I also shot with sights slow and steady with both the left and right hand hold, both double handed and single handed. I am not a trick shooter by any means. But I am an expert shot and have trained many to shoot well.

Quite a bit of the tech requires some inate ability, and the ability grows with practice and confidence.

Like I said I do other types of shooting also. But in a quick shooting situation I am sure my reflexes will do the same as they did 30 years ago when I was not sure if I needed it on a daily bases or not. The reason I still keep up the practice.
Some might consider it insecurity, I just figure 'habit and practice' ( I enjoy shooting) if I need it, it will be there.
Like a good knife, when you need it, it is nice to have it in your pocket.

R. B.
Semper Fi.
Keep up the good work, you are saving lives.

Harley
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Old January 4, 2006, 04:10 PM   #15
Az Qkr
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Harley Quinn:

Right back at ya sir and thanks for your thoughts.

I'm heading to Arlington National Cemetery sometime next week. One of my dear friends in the SF 5th group passed while kicking doors in Iraq on Dec 30.

The QK system is being recognized within certain communities and it is my goal to bring this to as many who may need the skills as possible after having kept the knowledge to myself for 24 years. Time to pass on the knowledge, I'm not getting any younger here.

http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles...ointvsight.htm

Robin Brown
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Old January 4, 2006, 04:19 PM   #16
Tokamak
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I just tried it.

It works.

I pointed my hand gun towards and below a light switch (empty gun, no one behind the wall) and when I shifted my head to be in line with the sights it was right on! I did it with a door knob further away: again, right on.

I am going to try this at the range with live ammo and see how accurate it is. Thanks for the info.
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Old January 4, 2006, 05:48 PM   #17
OBIWAN
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You can do the same thing with your finger

Doesn't mean you should take your sites off your weapon
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Old January 4, 2006, 09:45 PM   #18
Sweatnbullets
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Obiwan, that would be ridiculous and there is no one here suggesting that you do such a ridiculous thing. This is not a threat focus-vs-sight focus discussion, this is a threat focus along with sight focus discussion.

My default course of action will always be to get to the sights. But, I have found time and time again, in FOF, in myself and all of my "frontsight only" training buddies, that when the action is fast and close and the urgency is high, *most* people will become threat focused.

The availability of FOF due to the influx of the airsoft gun has opened the vast majority of the firearms trainers eyes to the importance and absolute need for threat focus training. This is no longer a square range world. Training is against live, reacting, moving and attacking adversaries. What was once seen as adequete training has been replaced by reality.

Reality is that you may not be able to get to your sights and to be a truely well rounded shooter you need threat focus skills out past contact distances.
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Old January 5, 2006, 11:53 AM   #19
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Sights are optional for QK

Quote:

I suspect not as the sights are used but not in focus and distances implied are about 5ft to several times that. The sights are used, but different from what I have come across before.
One does not use the sights when using QK properly. One does pick up the weapon in your peripheral vision, but the sights are not used. In fact, at Sightless in Tucson in October 2005... all students shot Brownie's sightless 1911 -- there were no sights on the pistol whatsoever! And every student hit the target with that sightless 1911.

So, if one is performing QK correctly, no sights are required -- they are NOT used.

Do I advocate removing sights from one's sidearm? Hell NO! But since QK is deadly accurate out to 10 yards for most people (all the students at Sightless in Tucson were putting rounds on steel torso-sized targets at 10 yards using QK), and I think I can use it out to 15-17 yards with a little more practice... and since the vast majority of all armed confrontations occur within 7 yards, I think QK would benefit ALL shooters. Heck, I think most practice and training should be with QK inside 10 yards, and then a few magazines of sighted fire every practice session at various distance.

Sights have their uses... but after training at the hands of a Point Shooting Master like Brownie... I think handgun sight use is not nearly as important as most people think they are.
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Old January 5, 2006, 11:55 AM   #20
OBIWAN
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Oh...yes......I have seen point shooting advocates with no sites on their pistols...maybe nobody here....

"Reality is that you may not be able to get to your sights and to be a truely well rounded shooter you need threat focus skills out past contact distances"

Good for you....but.......

That is not my reality

Beyond contact distances I will bring the weapon to my visual plane to make the shot. I may not have perfect sight alignment, but I will have a visual reference that includes the weapon

As Jeff Gonzales puts it, using the sights gives you an "error box" that makes it likely that you will still hit your target regardless of all the things you do wrong because of stress, etc.

Too many of the "trendy" approaches to fighting (not shooting) seem to be based on the premise that you won't be able to do it right.

That is what training is for
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Old January 5, 2006, 12:56 PM   #21
Harley Quinn
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Obiwan, actually this particular tech is not trendy

As I wrote to you and others it has been around for a long time.

R.B. Has also related to everyone that it has been around for quite some time.
I was trained in it in the 60's and 70's by the LE Org. that I was with.
It is a good 'great' tech and it is very effective at the ranges I have been talking about.

Like you have said though, training and continuing practice is the key to it. And any other type of self defense...
Practice and train. This one is a real good tool to put in your git kit.

I believe you are very correct when you advise to get your sights on them fast.
But while doing that, a few down stream with this tech maybe the difference between life and death.
For the person who use's it as a tech (tool) for their defense.

Harley
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Old January 5, 2006, 05:54 PM   #22
OBIWAN
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Oh...by trendy I didn't mean new...just ....trendy

The names change but the song remains the same....remember fistfire

And many of the approaches are very very close to sighted fire
(ie: the weapon is in the visual plane ) We can talk for ours about target focus/weapon focus/soft-hard focus/hocus focus

But if you are standing in a weaver/iso stance with the weapon at eye level.....that is sighted fire in my book...which won't ...unfortunately sell books

And as I said before ...what I call body indexed shooting has its' place....and sighted fire is approporiate for everything else.IMHO


Where I generally see the true point shooting (hip shooting) advocates flounder is when they have to make a longer range shot under truly sub-optimum conditions. Mess with their stance and they can't get "in the zone"

Provide them with a very obscured target ...same problem...generally
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Old January 5, 2006, 10:51 PM   #23
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I would not use the word trendy. I would go with the word timely. Threat focus shooting systems always come back into use whenever we are at war. The neccesity to make hits on the fly without taking the time for sights verification is an absolute must in combat and once we are at war, people always scramble back to the threat focus systems that were born out of combat.

The "frontsight only" trend is a peace time trend, born out of competition. It is a trend that is popular when there is no one shooting back at the users.

Of course our disagreement is purely semantics. It is obvious by your posts that you use threat focus techniques, but you perfer to not call it what it is. That's cool, call it whatever you want, but don't use threat focus techniques and disparage it at the same time. That sends a very confusing message to those that have not closed their minds to threat focus shooting.

You have obviously made up your mind, and there is nothing I can say to change that. I have known many people just like you, many of them are my close friends. Talk will never change anything with people such as this. That is why I put my closed minded friends into FOF. There is nothing more fun than taking a "sights only" guy and showing him a world he never knew existed. Watching their eyes turn as wide as saucers, totally fix on me, and seeing them shoot from positions well below their line of sight, as I go on the attack.

After the confrontation, they know what I was talking about, they know that they were wrong. As I walk back to them, you can just see the embarassment. In a very polite and caring voice I ask them "what did you see?" This is where I usually get a "F--- you!" Then I teach them some threat focus shooting skills.
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Last edited by Sweatnbullets; January 6, 2006 at 12:18 AM.
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Old January 5, 2006, 11:09 PM   #24
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When your in a real shoot situation, your not going to use your sights, you might as well file them off. Most shootings are 3 to 10 yards and at that range your going to point shoot, and your not going to place every bullet in the kill zone. Take for example a recent shooting in my area. 54 round went down range from 4 different officers. 3 found thier mark. These officers were using pistols and AR's. Of course the three that did hit the subject fatally wounded him. I seriosly doubt these officers used thier sights. They were being fired at and i'm sure they just pointed and sprayed as many rounds as possibly.

I train with my sights, but i spend more time point shooting. As long as I can place all my rounds in a man shaped target, I am happy. Remember three shots in tight group is not going to stop a threat as quick as several rounds hitting several different organs.

Good luck and be safe.
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Old January 5, 2006, 11:38 PM   #25
Harley Quinn
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You are correct there superman

One in the Liver. One in the Spleen. One in the Heart. Those are a few organs that really count.

I remember a shooting where the first round caught the guy in the pubic bone he doubled up and the second one went in a lung, the liver and a kidney, slight angle across the body. Expired at the scene.

Some are not as good, like 8 shots fired and no hit. Susp started screaming don't shoot, don't shoot. Since they could not hit the guy they quit and he gave up.

Sometimes you are lucky and don't have to kill someone. Paper work is hell and the monday morning quarterbacking will make you very cautious, so cautious you might not shoot the next time. Pretty scary when your partner just watchs and returns not one round. Happens quite a bit.

Some are not prone to shoot others are. The trick is you don't know till it counts.

Harley
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