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Old January 1, 2006, 01:43 AM   #26
Lycanthrope
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Politics does play a role in the sport. I just can't see sugar coating it because it makes it appear to the anti's that we're hiding something and it destroys our own credibility. It's like saying drunk driving is OK, as long as you don't appear drunk......

We simply need to defend out right to hunt on a stronger basis than to act like hunting is as sanitary as shooting clay pigeons.
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Old January 1, 2006, 03:12 AM   #27
roy reali
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The Fence Sitters

Us hunters are in the minority. There are folks that want to ban our sport no matter how we portray ourselves. These are usually the left wing whackos.

There are many people that do not have feelings either way. They do not hunt, but they do vote. The anti's and PETA folks will try to sway them with their propaganda. We do not need to help them.

If you think graphic details of our sport are harmless I have a suggestion.

Buy space on a billboard near a major highway. Plaster a graphic picture of dead animals with a smiling hunter included. In big letters write out your support of our sport. Something like, I'm a hunter and I am proud of what I do.

PETA will make you a poster child for their cause.
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Old January 1, 2006, 06:14 AM   #28
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+1 on roy reali. There plenty of people eat a nice roast or a turkey etc but if they had to go down the yard and kill and dress it they would have a heart attack. They buy nice sanitised packages of meat from the supermarket and dont have to deal with the reality of hunt and kill then prepare to eat. So they would stop you in a heartbeat if they get enough of that sort of thing pushed in their faces. The fact is, we all in this forum have seen all this for real many times, wherever you shoot an animal it is graphic and messy. I personally always feel a little sad for any animal I shoot, it doesnt stop me shooting or spoil the pleasure of the hunt and a good shot with a clean kill, but I take no pleasure in making a mess of an animal and certainly dont feel the need to post it on an international forum read by many more than us. Time to be sensible and get on with hunting for the real reasons.
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Old January 1, 2006, 10:35 AM   #29
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OH GOOD POINT MEEKAND MILD, never thought of the muzzle flash thing at 186000 miles a second.(wonder if i can get my mag to shoot that fast?) I have shot it at night and flames come out the side of the muzzle break three feet to either side. Its kinda neat. I had no idea starting this thread would Pixx so many people off or get them so rilled up. Those deer i shot make some good chili and fried steak. Yummy!
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Old January 1, 2006, 10:57 AM   #30
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This is an interesting pair of discussions-- are graphic hunting pics a detriment to our sport?, and is a headshot a bad idea as a regular practice?

I respect the way that everyone here has presented their ideas, and congratulate y'all on going about posting your thoughts in a reasonable manner.

Personally, I have little problem with the pictures of animals taken in an ethical manner. I have NO room for shots of animals with evidence of torture or less then ethical methods employed to take them. But that's certainly what we're talking about here. I'll admit that I've got enough Irish in me to be disinclined to sanitize my posts of pertinent content, just because PETA might be offended. Scroom. And frankly, on the face of it, armedtotheteeth's pics are proof positive that the animals did not suffer. Note also that he posted a warning in the thread title: "Very Graphic".
If someone read the thread title, then opened the thread, and read his post, and then clicked on the link, and were STILL shocked, well, they're beyond help.

The only thing I object to, is that the bullet traveled toward the most moblile part of the deer (in three dimensions) for about 1/5 of a second before it hit, from 175 yards. During that time, a deer's head can easily move enough to create a tragic wounding. Add human reaction time, and it begins to take a lot of the certainty out of a certain kill.

Ever blown a shot? I sure have. Just a tiny throw-off costs not only a perfect kill, but creates a terrible tragedy.

I'd rather take the higher percentage shot.
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Old January 1, 2006, 11:50 AM   #31
roy reali
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Hunting Publications

I am certain that most of us have picked up a hunting magazine ot two. My favorite part of these publications are the photographs.

Have you noticed how blood free their photos are?

You can call the publishers of such magazines sell outs. They are, after all, trying to sanitize a blood sport for public consumption. Would you be happier if they published pictures as they actually would appear in the field?

As far as warning folks that something is going to be graphic is an invitation to look. This is espically true of children.
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Old January 1, 2006, 01:58 PM   #32
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Quote:
Would you be happier if they published pictures as they actually would appear in the field?
Yes.

When I hunt, I am not going down to the corner store for Cheerios. It is not simply an excersize in food gathering. Hunting is in no way the cheapest or simplest method to get dinner on the table. I am, however, excersizing and honing my skills as a controlled predator. I respect my game and like the challenge. After around 18 years of shooting multiple deer per year, I started looking for more challenge in in using primitive firearms and taking carefully planned headshots for the past 7 years.

Btw, I think the muzzle flash argument is worth considering, but I find deer more spooked by sound or quick movement than flash. If you consider the flash and smoke from a flashpan and the subsequent delay in muzzleloader shooting, it wouldnt be safe to shoot past 25 yards if they were that spooky.

The anti's are out there. They are more likely to use the pic of the AR30 than the deer kill. First, PETA has done this before with the fur and livestock avenues and ends up looking like freaks. The AR30 itself is more menacing to the public and I can see the headline from the anti's now: "Hunter uses military sniper rifle to practice killings. This same weapon also comes in a .50 caliber (AR50) that can kill from a mile away and travel through engine blocks".

Uh,oh. Now we can't post pics of our rifles either unless we continually just show our wood stocked, iron sight weapons. The assault weapons ban came out of this exact thinking and the fact that the PUBLIC was not familiar with the weapons. Looking at the AR30 some Joe Schmoe will more likely say "oh, wow, that deer never had a chance with a gun like that!". Nevermind the AR30 is just a good free floated and braked .30 cal.

Hiding our sport is more likely to allow people to skew the public view on it.
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Old January 1, 2006, 04:10 PM   #33
roy reali
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Some Show

I am not saying that we hide our sport.

I am not saying that we pretend that our sport involved death and blood.

I just think that what we reveal to Joe Blow Public be reasonable.
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Old January 1, 2006, 05:46 PM   #34
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I understand. I'm not asking for billboards, but to censor a gun forum and a hunting subforum is a bad idea. Yeah anyone can logon. Anyone can also log on to banged up dot com and see a lot worse. Don't blame the internet. Kids need supervision.....

I can't offer any of you a scientific study, but I can offer a good case example. Last year I shot a decent 8 point and brought pics into my office. The executive director hung an 8x11" glossy in the main lobby. This is a non-profit facility working with kids and families. After 13 months, not one person has complained. The deer's eyes are glazed, there is blood on the hide and horns and the only comment I've heard from a client was "Is that you with the deer?". Well...yes it is.

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~jefwolfe/deer1.JPG

How can this be ok? Well, culture plays a large part and what we do and do not show as normal can play a lot in shaping a communities future viewpoint.

The local papers in PA also still show a lot of undoctored shots dead trophies every year. Schools still get days off in hunting season.... If it's accepted and understood it tends to be protected.

I'm glad to see armedtotheteeth using an AR to hunt with. It just goes to show you can hunt with a 15lb+ rifle with a brake the size of my fist. It would go a long way to protect gun rights if everyone hunted with evil black rifles and they were accepted as hunting tools by the public. As such, the right to own one would be better preserved.

Unfortunately, on several hunting style forums, it does not fit the status quo to use "magnum" calibers, use large optics, muzzle control devices, non bonded bullets or to make precision shots. I found the muzzle flash arguement interesting, but exactly how well recieved would a Remington Model 700 be with a Vortex or Phantom screwed on the muzzle? I mean...what could possibly be the down side? Yet, the status quo of the hunting community (largely influenced by the sanitized gun rags) would reject it in my opinion....effectively locking out and refucing to protect another effective feature that the anti's have focused on attacking (being one of the evil features in the Assault Weapons Ban).

With the stle of thought that there is only ONE way to hunt correctly and that includes only one style and/or a particular type of weapon, the firearms community has helped to dig it's own hole.

Which brings me back to one of my original posts....if you know as hunter that you can make the shot without any extraneous variables cropping up (which are part of fair chase), then take it with my blessing. That continues to be the heart of ethical hunting.
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Old January 1, 2006, 06:15 PM   #35
roy reali
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Regional Differences?

Maybe our debate here is a regional thing.

As you may know, I live in California. I guess I feel I need to fly under the radar here. Less then 15 pecent of our population hunts here. With over thirty million people that is a mixed blessing. If more folks hunted, the few public areas would be even more crowded. But then we would have more political clout in Sacramento.

I still think our public image helps or hurts our cause in most areas.
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Old January 2, 2006, 01:18 AM   #36
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To each their own. I'm not a fan of photographs like this, but I am an adult, and made the decision to do such. I am not offended, and will not lose any sleep over it.

But this is the part that concerns me the most:

Quote:
Even if i did miss by a few inches ( GOD FORBID) and hit the jaw, the shock of a big fast bullet out of a 300 mag will knock a deer out cold , and he would bleed to death before he came too.
I'm not sure if you are serious or not. I hope not.

Where do you even start with a statement like that? Yikes!!!

Have you ever seen a deer with his jaw shot off?

I have, I'm the one who made the shot. I was going for a neck shot, and he moved and I botched the shot as well. He was not knocked cold, and did not bleed out from that wound. If he had not been shot again, he would have died of dehydration/starvation, not blood loss.

Luckily for me, another shot presented itself, and he didn't have to die a long miserable death.

However, this was not done with a big fast bullet out of a 300 mag, merely a 30'06, so YMMV.

I thought about that buck for a long time afterwards.

Regards,

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Old January 2, 2006, 01:32 AM   #37
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Where do you even start with a statement like that? Yikes!!!
Well I can't effectively defend every circumstance, but gut shots are just as bad. It happens. Going neck andf hitting the jaw is a pretty wide margin. At least as far as going for a heart shot and gut shooting. Assuming you were side shooting the animal and arced up and left/right that's a poor stroke by some of the posts here As I said before, practice is more important than the type of shot and the center shoulder shot is the only PC shoy by general opinion.

I can see the front sight lift on my 1911 in recoil and KNOW if the target moves. I wasn't able to do that without a lot of practice. Id have known if I had blown the shot or the animal had moved. I've seen dust fly off hide in the scope of my 7STW.... Honesty... most people blink.

I also have some pics of 160 gr Nosler Partitions that would have blown the head clean off with the right rifle in the jaw. Ever think that a 160 Partition wouldn't even get through the first shoulder of a whitetail? Think again. (yeah, I can post 'em).
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Old January 2, 2006, 10:21 AM   #38
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Long Path, this discussion leads to another tangent, the question of copyright infringment.

Suppose a member posted a photo of a deer which had been killed quickly and humanely, but the picture was 'gross and icky' by the teenaged preppie girl standards by which antihunting organizations attract public attention. Then suppose the picture apears on the antihunting website.

How would the artist go about filing criminal copyright infringement charges on the hostiles who repost his picture? CAN he file charges? Can he sue?

Armed, no I don't think that you'd ever be able to beat the speed of light unless they ever come out with laser rifles. Deer detect motion so it is also possible that in bright light they might see your hand move to pull the trigger. (I think the muzzle flash is more obvious) This is one of the reasons I shoot for bigger parts. You won't mess up much meat shooting through the ribs just behind the front legs unless you eat deer lungs. :barf:
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Old January 2, 2006, 10:32 AM   #39
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WHat a way to bust my bubble. Surely I can load about 140 - or 150 grains of IMR 4350 into a 300 mag case, i can get close to that 186000 miles a second. Ow wow!! 982,080,000 feet per second. That may take some better powder, and maybe a saboted bullet. May not have a place to hunt anymore if these damn fires dont get put out. Half of texas is burning.
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Old January 2, 2006, 02:17 PM   #40
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An ethical hunter... 1. Is responsible, careful,considerate,capable and courteous. 2. Is mindful of the non-hunting public. 3.Properly tags and transports game appropriately. 4.Takes safe, considerate and non-offensive photos....Written laws tell us what we can and cannot do. Unwritten laws(ethics) tell us what we should and should not do.
This ad is on page 53 of the texas parks and wildlife 2005-2006 annual. Number 4 I thought was strange to be put in there but I can see their point.
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Old January 2, 2006, 07:22 PM   #41
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Even if i did miss by a few inches ( GOD FORBID) and hit the jaw, the shock of a big fast bullet out of a 300 mag will knock a deer out cold , and he would bleed to death before he came too.
Wow. I had missed that the first time.
I've helped look for deer that other hunters have shot in the head that flopped over, then came to and ran off with a wound to the cranium. Bleeding to death from a shot-off jaw is NOT very likely. Also, with the hinged jaw, the shock imparted to the CNS is very likely not going to put the animal down.
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Old January 2, 2006, 07:44 PM   #42
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That was worst case scenareo. A follow up shot would be there in an instant if needed. Never has been. I shoot them from behind anyhow, so hitting a jaw is out of the Question. All i usually see is that little sweet spot between their ears.
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Old January 2, 2006, 10:06 PM   #43
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So......is it ethical to headshoot deer with my 7STW with 120gr Ballistic Tips? At 3750fps almost any contact will blow the head clean off.

Bonded bullets are poor for headshots. I've seen a lot more gut shot deer go unrecovered since the advent of hunting shows preaching the wonders of strictly controlled expansion. With the older bullets the large tissue disruption could often help if you had a paunch shot. With the Barnes X or Bondeds you get a hole a fifth of the size for an exit.

Here's a question. In the grand scheme of things, do you think more deer have been lost to botched headshots (ie jaw shots) than to botched shoulder shots (ie gutshots)? I just found one today while muzzleloading that had been shot too far back.

Know your shot. Your skills determine your placement.
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Old January 2, 2006, 10:25 PM   #44
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Im beting far more have been lost to gut shots, seen many myself. I do bet the ones that where shot in the head where far more a disturbing site to see though. I last week saw one run for 400 hundred yards tripping over his guts, I guided a friend on a hunt. He shot him 8 inches behind the front shoulder. , but alas, I did not have my trusty Armalite. My friend had to kill him with my .45 , after we found him.
Softpoints work well. Just dont use Match ammo, not very nice. Almost zero expansion.
As Lycanthrope said, Know your shot. I would'nt even try a head shot if i couldnt hit a target the size of a tennis ball 10 out of 10 at 100 yards. Tennis balls are cool!!! AND no!, I dont shot my AR-30 offhand. That'd be dumb.
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Old January 2, 2006, 11:55 PM   #45
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Old January 2, 2006, 11:56 PM   #46
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True CWD is rampant in a lot of states.
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