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Old December 27, 2005, 02:40 PM   #1
swmike
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Does Concealed Carry mean Invisible ?

I have been looking for a LEGAL reading on what Concealed Carry really means under the law (as opposed to laymen's opinions). I have heard statements that "Concealed Carry means just that, concealed at all times". "If your weapon is ever exposed for any reason, it can be considered brandishing, or intimidation".

I went on a search (by word) of my state laws (Revised Code of Washington) and was amazed that the term "brandishing" is not used anywhere in state law. The term intimidation shows up more in conjunction with Car Dealer practices (go figure) than anything else but never in the Concealed Weapon Statutes.

The State of Washington, for regulation purposes, requires all Concealable Weapons to be carried only with a permit, thus no Open Carry (as a means of avoiding the Concealed Weapons Permit (CPL). No requirement that they be FULLY concealed, just that the carrier have a permit.

Can anyone out there enlighten me as to why there seems to be all the commotion about exposing ones concealed weapon? The law in this state makes no reference to passive exposure. An overt act is covered under the assault statutes.

I realize that this is only Washington State I refer to but since the states all seem to collaborate, I would imagine other states have similar regulations. Do others state in so many words that a weapon must be concealed at all times? Do they specifically use the term brandishing as a possible charge if one accidently reaches for the soap on the top shelf at the supermarket and alarms the shopper behind him?

I'd be interested to see how this discussion goes. Lots of factual information or lots of opinions.
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Old December 27, 2005, 02:58 PM   #2
Archer1440
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I can tell you that in Utah, concealed means completely concealed, and "printing" can get your permit pulled.


Quote:
Can anyone out there enlighten me as to why there seems to be all the commotion about exposing ones concealed weapon?
There are many reasons why complete concealment is important. If you don't know what they are, I would urge you to get some good training.

Apologies if you're simply trying to spark discussion.
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Old December 27, 2005, 03:15 PM   #3
swmike
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I was trying to spark a discussion. It seems that the State of Washington has nothing in law that supports the concept that concealed weapons must be concealed at all times. They just don't allow for Open Carry to circumvent the requirement for a Concealed Permit. I have heard all to often the statement that "Concealed Means Concealed" but in my state I can't find any support in the law for that position.

I am well aware of the ramifications of presenting a weapon and the advantages of keeping it concealed (Over 40 years of Concealed Carry) but again, "what does the LAW say". Here it is not stated so apparently it is up to the LEO.
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Old December 27, 2005, 03:15 PM   #4
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In Texas, one's concealed gun cannot be recognized by casual observation, so no significant print or exposure, although accidental exposure such as a jacket blown open isn't a problem so long as the licensee rectifies the problem immediately.

If you print, your print should not resemble a firearm. It isn't considered concealed if it can be recognized visually.

It really isn't rocket science. Concealed means that folks should not be able to determine that you are carrying a gun. With that said, I carry enough stuff to always have things printing somewhere. I have even had gun buddies tell me where I am carrying my concealed gun, only to find they have pointed out my cell phone, mag pouch (which isn't illegal in Texas, open or concealed), knife, etc. They only assumed they could spot my gun because they know I carry a gun. Otherwise, they would not have considered any bulges under my shirt or jacket to be a gun since they don't look like guns.

Here are some simple rules of thumb to consider to help keep a firearm from printing in a recognizable manner with clothing...

1. Thicker fabric hides the details of a print better than thinner fabric.
2. Dark colors hide the shadowing caused by printing better than light colors.
3. Busy patterns break up the outline and shadowing than solids.
4. Dry fabric conceals better than clingy wet fabric.
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Old December 27, 2005, 03:27 PM   #5
Trip20
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Sorry swmike, searching in WA's Chapter 9.41 does not show a legal definition of "concealed". Nor does their "Terms Defined" section.

They seem to define everything but "concealed."
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Old December 27, 2005, 04:00 PM   #6
Al Norris
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From the WA codes: "It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

The devil is in the details, as someone I know identified to me elsewhere; "that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons." What it boils down to is that if some blissninny gets the vapors at the sight of your evil deadly weapon, and finds just one other person to agree with them that their alarm is "warranted," you're going to be in for an uncomfortable encounter with the local cops even if it later gets cleared up. Dunno what case law is on this, but the intent of the folks who wrote it up was to prohibit open carry in most cities, while neatly sidestepping the need to anger gun owners by saying so (from what I understand, the phrase was stuck in there in exchange for state pre-emption).

What I do know for sure is that in the State of Idaho, it really depends upon where you are. Some places won't do a thing unless you are actually exhibiting in a dangerous or reckless manner, while in places like Boise or Idaho Falls, merely printing may get you a visit from the local gendarmes.

Brandishing appears to mean, whatever upsets the locals!
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Old December 27, 2005, 05:03 PM   #7
Weeg
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Where I live now, is an open carry state...But there are CCW permits as well

.
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Old December 27, 2005, 05:48 PM   #8
nemesis
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This is Texas' definition of concealed............

Quote:
(3) "Concealed handgun" means a handgun, the presence of
which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable
person.
"Printing" is not an immediate concern unless your gun is so large and your clothing so tight as to clearly indicate that it is a gun.
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Old December 27, 2005, 06:30 PM   #9
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Antipitas pretty well explained it (and in Mountain Home, they don't even look twice at you for printing, carrying, etc.. Had a permit from there once when I lived there, Boise wasn't that bad).

In Oregon, an open carry state, it's pretty much as Antipitas explained it. You can, it's legal, but it depends upon which blissnanny spotted you and what they said over the phone to the LEO's.

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Old December 27, 2005, 07:20 PM   #10
Al Norris
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The average person going about their daily business will never "see" your gun, if you have taken what may amount to the most rudimentary precautions. I'll go one further, in many instances, the average person won't see your gun if you are carrying openly.

People nowadays just aren't concerned about it... Unless YOU make some kind of movement that highlights/identifies the fact that you are carrying. {B}THEN[/b] they'll see it and become "distressed" over the fact that here is a "man with a gun!"

Those of us that carry will see someone who "prints." We will notice who is openly carrying. That's primarily because of the learned situational awareness that many of us developed in the process of carrying concealed.

The above are my general observations of peoples behavior... YMMV
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Old December 27, 2005, 07:25 PM   #11
molonlabe
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Quote:
There are many reasons why complete concealment is important. If you don't know what they are, I would urge you to get some good training.
Best advice I've seen about this subject in a long time.
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Old December 27, 2005, 07:56 PM   #12
azurefly
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Florida's law (they mail you a copy of the pages when you get your renewal) says something about, "...concealed from the ordinary sight of another person."

Someone said something here once about how the gun cannot make itself known to another person, or how if they detect that it's a gun you have in that bulge, you are breaking the law. I call b.s. The law says "concealed from the ordinary SIGHT" of another person, NOT the "hunch or knowledge." People can know you have a concealed gun on you without you breaking the law. For example, what if someone were to know that you carry concealed, and then get a hard-on against you and wants to cause you trouble. He could follow you into a store and point to a bulge and say, "Hey, that guy has a gun I can see the bulge of!" The law couldn't possibly allow for someone to get you arrested because there's a bulge that can't be said for sure is a gun (edit: especially when it cannot be confirmed whether they said they saw a gun because they know you carry one or if they actually discerned it. Think about it: anyone who knows you carry a gun could call a cop and say that you pulled it on them, or flashed it and intimidated them. It's all the more reason to keep your carry of guns secret and known to only trusted people. It would make sense that the law recognizes this possibility and holds to a standard that a reasonable person would have to KNOW incontrovertibly that the bulge they saw was a gun before you would be in real trouble for letting it "show.")



My take on it is that the gun simply cannot show its actual self to plain sight. I imagine this would mean keep the butt of it covered with clothing, and don't let it fall out or poke out when you crouch down or reach up or something.

I have never seen it in the legal text that allowing the gun to be detected without actually beng shown is illegal.

Also, I don't know what penalty there would be for letting someone see a bit of steel accidentally when you were not "brandishing" the gun or otherwise showing off its presence.


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Old December 27, 2005, 08:00 PM   #13
azurefly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archer
I can tell you that in Utah, concealed means completely concealed, and "printing" can get your permit pulled.

Archer, can you quote chapter and verse on the law that stipulates this?

Unless there is a cited section of the law, I will remain skeptical. I once read an article in the paper that said the same about Florida's law, and I checked the law and there is no language that says anything like this.

I put it in the same category as claims that it's illegal to drive barefoot -- which everyone believes is true, but is utterly false.


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Old December 27, 2005, 08:05 PM   #14
swmike
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azurefly---

Are you sure you want to use "hard-on" and "bulge" in the same paragraph when talking about guns?
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My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target.


"In God we trust, all others are suspects."

"If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help".

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Old December 27, 2005, 08:13 PM   #15
azurefly
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Sorry, Mike. Guns just get me excited, is all.


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Old December 27, 2005, 09:16 PM   #16
swmike
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Be careful or you'll print and your privelege to carry will be revoked. I'll let your imagination determine for which "weapon".
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My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target.


"In God we trust, all others are suspects."

"If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help".

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Old December 27, 2005, 09:35 PM   #17
Dex Sinister
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Well, I can tell you that in California, (if you live in a county where you can get a CCW [mostly anywhere north of Sacramento]) the law doesn't actually require that the firearm never be seen for CCW.

We also don't have any exceptions in the law by which a business can exclude us, although carrying in a bar is verboten.

Ironic, isn't it - a state like CA having reasonable laws sometimes?

"Concealed means concealed" is what they are teaching in the CCW classes, however, as of the last renewal I did. I was tempted to call the teacher on it, but I didn't really want to make the class any longer.

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Old December 27, 2005, 09:52 PM   #18
Chris Phelps
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Curious... if Open-carry is legal, and concieled (by permit) is legal... are there still issues with printing?
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Old December 27, 2005, 10:47 PM   #19
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i take it that printing is when the outline of the gun is noticeable through your cloths,but the gun isn't actually seen?
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Old December 27, 2005, 11:06 PM   #20
Dex Sinister
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Quote:
I take it that printing is when the outline of the gun is noticeable through your clothes, but the gun isn't actually seen?
Yup, that's what it is.

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