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Old January 6, 2006, 10:38 AM   #26
Para Bellum
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A European's view (and back to the original question)

This is a very tragic and disturbing video indeed. Some things seem clear or not even worth mentoning to all of you, still, being European (Austrian) the struck me:

1. In Austria or Germany no police officer, especially Higway Patrol (Autobahnpolizei) would patrol alone. They are always in pairs one guarding the other one.

2. The second trooper (and that's the original question), acted perfectly well IMHO. We are all just humans, no matter whether familiy man, SWAT or COBRA member. These two are lucky to have survived this anyway. Based on the information the second trooper had he acted very cool and reasonable. He fully controlled the situatin with three (!) suspects and guarded his friend on the ground. At the same time he called help. Perfect. If he had been any less strict or intimidating on the two good guys, they could have killed him too, if they turned out to be the reason for the emergency call....(i.e. the bad guys...). He kept his nerve. Everybody doubting that has never seen an armed and scared man loosing his nerve.

3. Our Police Ammo (Hirtenberger Fiocchi 9x19mm FL 100gr) is a tough penetrator and penetrates even more than 124gr FMJ 9x19mm. One of the advantages of that is that no matter how fat, muscular or heavy clothed, you will cause lethal wounds with COM hits. I wonder how a man could be hit 5x by a penetrator like 145gr .357 Magnums and survive. I don't wonder that he wasn't stopped since handgun stopps with only 5 hits are not likely. But I wonder that he survived finally. I expected a .357 with 145gr bullets five time COM to lethally wound the criminal. As far as I remember nobody hit by our Austrian LEO ammo (9x19mm Hirtenberger/Fiocchi FL, tough penetrator) ever survived. Does anybody know, where exactly the criminal was hit? Maybe they said it later in the video, but I had to stop, my little girl came into the room...

5. We all want to lern from this, so criticism is helpful and also in the interest of the brave trooper who gave his life on duty. I bet he'd like all of us to learn from his death so let's openly discuss what he might have done wrong even in his own sake. I guess he was way too polite and peace-minded. He wanted to search the criminals pocked and his car. What for? Illegal arms, drugs and dead bodies etc. So, if you do that, you MUST expect to find Illegal arms, drugs and dead bodies etc. If you will find that your suspect will of course fight you in order to escape jail. And all of the three things mentioned before make people murder, even murder LEOs. So, if you are about to search a subject for illegal arms, drugs etc, excpect the worst attack possible from what you see. And he never saw the gun-hand of the subject... this puls the fact that he was alone... left him no chance. Although he fought immensly brave, accurate and tough, he's chances were very bad. The criminal had the benefit of suprise. And that's what the trooper should/could have taken out of the situation. He should have expected the criminal to strike with a hidden weapon anytime. That's what criminals do when you discover their criminal qualities in a routine-stop. No time for joking and chauviality.

6. Given all I said above in "5." still the chances of the most situation-aware and best traind trooper are marginal if he is alone and controls a heavyweight criminal with a hidden firearm. I just don't understand why these troopers have to be alone in their cars. If this is a budget/mone-issue than that government isn't worth the service of such good people.

7. five hits is good with any gun. But imagine he had to fight two and his verst would have saved him from that fatal bullet. I'd not allow arming my troopers with guns that only hold less than half the rounds of other reliable, affordable, modern powerful handguns of the same or even a smaller size. A .45 wouldn't have done better because it penetrates less than the .357 Mag (in general). I guess this incident shows the necessity of deep penetration, even on the cost of expansion. It sadly demonstrated that a shallow wide cavity doesn't help you, even from a magnum.
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Old January 6, 2006, 08:33 PM   #27
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Does anyone actually know how deep the magnums penetrated?
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Old January 7, 2006, 04:34 AM   #28
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US Troopers alwys alone?

No I had the time to watch the other two videos on that site showing another trooper being shot and a female officer being knocked out.

Is it standard in the USA that troopers roll alone? I am not aware of any European country where police units consist of less than two officers in one car.

If you search somebody for weapons etc, how do you expect the suspect to behave if he actually hides a weapon? Attack rapidly to avoid jail, if there is a chance to attack. With only one officer, the chances for a criminal with a hidden arm are actually pretty good. I am still stunned by these lone officer patrol car units...
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Old January 7, 2006, 05:30 AM   #29
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Quote:
Our Police Ammo (Hirtenberger Fiocchi 9x19mm FL 100gr) is a tough penetrator and penetrates even more than 124gr FMJ 9x19mm. One of the advantages of that is that no matter how fat, muscular or heavy clothed, you will cause lethal wounds with COM hits.
Quote:
As far as I remember nobody hit by our Austrian LEO ammo (9x19mm Hirtenberger/Fiocchi FL, tough penetrator) ever survived.
I think there are a few things to consider here, and I bring them up because of my experience in the trauma unit:

a) You aren't ever guaranteed that a center of mass shot (or even several shots) will stop the individual or indeed have a fatal outcome. It doesn't matter what the ammunition is. What matters is whether you can make him bleed or not. It is as simple as that. You only have to spend a week or two in a busy trauma unit to realise that people sustain serious gunshot wounds and still survive. Even if I go through my research papers and choose only those who were perforated (entrance and exit wounds) there are many who have survived center of mass hits (chest and abdomen, some cases multiple hits). And in perforating injuries there isn't a question about lack of penetration.

b) How many LEO-involved shootings do you have there in Austria? Forgive me if I have made an assumption, but my perception of the state-of-affairs in a country like that is that the number of shootings overall is quite low. Is there a sufficient number to produce statistics on the types of injuries sustained and the placement of entrance wounds? I just think that with small samples we can come to erroneous conclusions about ammunition and shot placement. This also reflects on your statement that as far as you can remeber nobody shot with your ammunition COM has survived. I find that unlikely to be a valid starting point for an argument that all subsequent shootings with that same ammunition would also be fatal. It comes down to numbers.

Quote:
I wonder how a man could be hit 5x by a penetrator like 145gr .357 Magnums and survive.
This isn't common but it does happen. Again, you need to go through the hospital registers and note the findings in a busy trauma unit. It would be nice to have the medical records of Mr Blackburn to see exactly where those wounds were. The reason I say this is because you can have a COM hit that doesn't involve the thoracic or abdominal cavity at all. This is more likely if the individual is fat and is also dependent on his presentation to the shooter. It doesn't have to be a case of failure to penetrate, a bullet can perforate an individual close to the ribcage and yet not cause any significant injuries. In a fat guy this is not an unbelievable scenario. By the same token I have seen gunshot victims die even though they didn't sustain a center of mass hit, or they sustained a hit that damaged a peripheral artery. Even a small calibre gunshot wound to the leg can be fatal if a significant artery is damaged. You can't have a hard-and-fast rule about what ammunition will work in a particular placement unless you shoot these people under laboratory conditions.
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Old January 7, 2006, 08:33 AM   #30
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Having seen the tape many times in training, I have spoken to Officers that can not believe the suspect did not go down. You should notice trooper Coates is taller than the suspect is. All the shots looked like they where center mass and down into the target. The suspect took all the shots into the gut area from above. Gut shots are survivable.
Some people might be wondering about the use of the 357 Mag. This tape is a few years old. I saw it when I went there the Police academy back in 1997. At the time several police agencies where still carrying 357 mags. Including mine.
Also I saw some one mention the Dinkheller incident, I knew the officer and was at the funeral. This was another tragic incident, which should not have happened. Dink had the suspect stopped on the Highway and the suspect got back in his vehicle and drove off onto the back road where the incident occurred. The suspect stated after he was arrested that he had all ready planned on shooting the officer. Another incident that occurred prior to the Dinkheller incident (1996 30 miles north of the Dinkheller incident) was the shooting death of Baldwin County Dep. Will Robinson (a frat. brother and Good friend). This incident occurred when Will stopped a possible armed robbery suspect. As he called the vehicle in he found out he knew the suspect (went to school with him). As Will got out of his patrol vehicle the suspect got out of his and started shooting, the first two rounds struck Will in the vest and spun him as the third round struck him in the head.
All of these incidents show that possibly the traffic stop is one of the most dangerous type of incident that an officer will encounter, and it is one of the most common. IMHO Trooper Coates did everything right, it was just his day. The responding Trooper covered himself (he even checked own Trooper Coates prior to the shooting by driving by the stop). Dinkheller got caught up in the chase, he followed the suspect down a back road (and as an armchair quarterback after the fact) Dink should have waited for back up which was on the way.
However, tragic these incidents are they should be used as training tools that may one day prevent this happening to another Police Officer.
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Old January 7, 2006, 10:51 AM   #31
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Officer Jackobs acted very appropriotly(SP) when he initially got on the scene. Unless I am mistaken though, later when other officers arrive, the video shows the two truckers handcuffed and being thrown around on the ground. If this is indeed what I saw, at that point, it is deffinatly excessive. Also My cousin is a reserve Marine who just got off of active duty and two tours as a scout in Iraq. We shoot a lot together in armor and equipment for his training upkeep and for me to learn. One of the tactics he taught me is since military, and police for some time, are wearing actual body armor( not flak jackets) with plates especially, is to directly face your opponent. This gives you the most protection from fire obviously because it is where you have the most armor. Is this something that is taught in the police community? It may have been the last thing on Officer Coates's mind at the time nor may he have known where to face given the situation. It may be something to think about. I always thought that you should turn at an angle and reduce your profile but that just exposes openings and weak ponts in your armor
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Old January 7, 2006, 01:58 PM   #32
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I am still stunned by these lone officer patrol car units
It's pretty much the standard here. More economical for the agencies, and LE unions, for what ever reason, don't raise much of a fuss about it.

In the 30's and 40's, departments had what they called "heavy cars". When rolling to a fight or other major problem, they crammed as many cops as they could fit into a car (picture Keystone Cops ) As cars became more available, it went down to two per car, and now one-man units are the rule. This is a good thing for urban LE as it increases visibility to the public and leaves more units free for the onslaught on today's BS calls. In urban areas, backup isn't far way.

But for state police / highway patrols, and for some sheriff's departments, backup can be 20, 30, 40 minutes away. Not a good thing, and no solutions in sight .
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Old January 7, 2006, 03:23 PM   #33
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I've just watched the tape. I have a question. Not being argumentative but curious. What was the rationale for asking to search the car? The shooter was being polite and was just given a warning?

About the truck drivers - the narration said they were carrying a 380. If that was seen when the officers arrived, it makes perfect sense to tell them to get them.
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Old January 7, 2006, 03:31 PM   #34
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Statistics / Troso Penetration / Lone Troopers / Lessons Learned and remembered

Quote:
b) How many LEO-involved shootings do you have there in Austria? Forgive me if I have made an assumption, but my perception of the state-of-affairs in a country like that is that the number of shootings overall is quite low. Is there a sufficient number to produce statistics on the types of injuries sustained and the placement of entrance wounds? I just think that with small samples we can come to erroneous conclusions about ammunition and shot placement. This also reflects on your statement that as far as you can remeber nobody shot with your ammunition COM has survived. I find that unlikely to be a valid starting point for an argument that all subsequent shootings with that same ammunition would also be fatal. It comes down to numbers.
You are right. Austria is small and relatively low crime. Austria is the size of Maine and has 8 Million inhabitants. The number of police shootings is small. But the remakrable fact that only the police seems to survive police shootings here might also be due to the fact that if the police here shoot, they shoot a lot. They carry Glock 17s with usually 17 rounds in one gun and they are trained to shoot until the threat no longer is a threat. Plus, Police here always come in pairs. No lone troopers here. And: If any violence is expeced, the COBRA (link) (kind of SWAT) are called and these guys know their jobs extremely well. I remember one case of a suspect open fire on two policeman as he left the elevator and saw the two officers waiting at his door. He caught 22 rounds of 9x19mm in the blink of an eye (he also hit on officer in the vest with his .32). And furthermoreso, COBRA mostly work with their AUGs (Steyr) and/or MP5s...

Anyway: Maybe our inicdents are not representative. Still it's hard for me to believe that it were at all likeley to survive several COM hits with 9x19mm or equivalent (penetrating) bullets.

I think there are several things I learned from or was horribly reminded by viewing Trooper Coats tragic death:

1. Patrolling alone is an irresponsible and irrational strategy. Troopers expect crime and have to fight it. Without anyone watching your back that's hardly reasonably possible IMHO. I am truly irritated by this US-practice.

2. If you are about to search somebody for weapons expect him to hide one and strike as soon as your search becomes inevitable. What else could you expect an armed criminal with a concealed weapon to do?
So: step 7yds or so back, place your hand on your holstered gun and order him into a position where he cant strike or strikes form disadvantage. Keep your hand on your gun and conduct the search with your weak hand....
Still: If I were alone, I wouldn't search a suspect. Even my gun is in his reach in such a situation and nobody can search and full controll a suspect at the same time IMHO.

3. If a formerly cooperative person shows hesitation if you ask for his consent to a search, be on condition orange at least. If you don't see all the suspect's hands in such a situation: condition red.

4. If being attacked: shoot back as you move to cover. Getting cover has priority over shooting back.

5. Call assistance only from cover. If you have no cover yet: Get cover or keep moving as you shoot back.

6. Never underestimate your Adversary. A friendly fat dwarf can kill a 6ft ACE-Team ex-marine ex-fotball star LEO in seconds.

7. Never underestimate a situation. A friendly and polite fat dude with his hand in his pocket can already get his revolver ready to fire while distracting you in order to strike with the cover of surprise.

8. And yet again: Don't escalate situations alone, ie without backup. You don't really have a chance against a determined criminal. We are a small country, but if things turn bad here we often face fromerl eastern-block professional criminals with an affection fot the 7,62x25mm pistol caliber. If Blackburn had used this kind of gun, Trooper Coates would very likely have died from the two shots in the vest even. The more I think about troopers rolloing allone, the more stunned I become...
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Old January 7, 2006, 04:12 PM   #35
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two cents + or -

So many things I would like to say since I am so late into this thread.

First about Coates.. With first hand experience as a Trooper I can say that what you might see in the video as complacency is actually an attempt by Coates to lower the guard of the violator before asking for consent to search. If you come across as a jack booted thug you will not get consent. He probably should have paid more attention to the scum bags hands and never let them go back to their vehicles. Coates was a criminal interdictor not a speed cop. He used as others still use, the traffic code as a means to search for and seize illicit drugs and weapons. No laws are broken and no rights are violated. They are good at what they do, as Coates was. Listen again to the laundry list of things he seized prior to that day. I will not pick apart the video because Coates did many things that road Troopers do not do any more. More than likely lessons learned from this video. All I can say is Thank you for your service brother God Bless.

Coates carried a revolver because I believe all LEAs did back in 1992. I do not know when the big shift was made for semi autos.

Jacobs can be my back up any day. I do agree that his language was not to pretty but neither was the situation. We have to take ourselves back to what he knew. He knew that Coates was on a traffic stop and that he sent a distress signal that is it. Coates was only able to send the distress signal nothing else, no location, no description as to what had happened.

Our Angels on the air add to the distress signal because that is what they are taught, the communications officers added the “officer down” to the original call for help. In those days Troopers did not call dispatch to give location or vehicle description before traffic stops. Dispatchers might only hear, during the day, requests for criminal histories and warrant checks or if a suspect was placed under arrest. Times have changed now, and for the better.

Jacobs knew that his friend was on a stop because he just drove past him. The next thing he hears is officer down. Man no one can, nor should they, judge a man for what he does next except for those that have been in that same situation. The first thing Jacobs sees is his friend laying on his back on the interstate with two UNKNOWN males standing in close proximity. Jacobs did right; he put everybody on the ground and secured the scene before he checks on his friend, and then he told dispatch what is needed. Jacobs continued to hold the scene until he had more assistance. After the cavalry gets there we should have seen a lowering of intensity and a return to normal speech. If you want to question anything, question Jacobs training. I think he was very composed as to what to do and when to do it. He never lowered his guard or lost his focus even though his friend is lying there on the pavement non-responsive. His language that he used was rough but so what, you should not focus on what was said but what was done.

Highway Patrol Troopers still ride alone for the most part. The problem is money. Too many miles to cover and not enough Troops, we hate it but there is not much that can be done, except raise taxes.

Let us not compare apples to oranges. A Special Response Team is nice and comforting to have but not realistic in a Highway Patrol situation. For inner city Police it is very usefull.
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Old January 7, 2006, 04:57 PM   #36
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tax money and dying officers

NarcSgt,

thanks for your post. I didn't compare a Troopers possibilities to those of a SWAT team. What I wanted to say in response to a prior post is that we might have so few (none I know of) criminal survivors of gunfights with Austrian police because (i) Austrian Police never roll alone and (ii) any kind of critical tasks (eg search for guns and weapons etc) here is done by SWAT teams. That's the point I tried to make.

The fact that it actually was Coates' primary mission to search for guns and drugs alone is pretty stunning again. You guys spend gazillions on things lik the B-2 Bomber or a war for oil and your troopers have to search for the most dangerous of criminals (armed drug trafficers) alone. And then they tell you it's a tax thing. Wow. well, at least that makes me satisfied with paying way more taxes in Europe than you do in the US. And it also makes me shiver of deep respect for the people who go out there on this mission and do high-risk searches alone. I - honestly - wouldn't dare to.

I assumend that Coates just did all that "what's the weather down there"-talk to ease the situation and get permission for his search. But that also kind of stunns me. Here in Europe LEO can search you if there is a reason for suspicion. They don't need your consent at all. And that's a good thing IMHO.

That's why such searches can be done by special response units. It happens on my way to the airport from time to time. SWATs block the street and search each vehicle. Imagine Blackburn in that type of situation. If society has a need to search cars, society should think about the lifes of it's LE-Personell and give them the right to do so and the opportunity to do so as safely as possible.

And anyway, which drug/gun/corps-trafficer would agree to being searched? That whole idea reminds me of the form you have to fill out when you fly into the USA. One of the first Questions on that form goes something like: "Are you planning a terrorist attack on US soil?". Who in the world would answer that with yes? Which criminal in the world would open his trunk voluntarily to show you the heroine, handgranades or corpses he is smuggling? There is a kind of logic behind these patterns I am not able to comprehend.
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Old January 7, 2006, 05:03 PM   #37
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One of the tactics he taught me is since military, and police for some time, are wearing actual body armor( not flak jackets) with plates especially, is to directly face your opponent. This gives you the most protection from fire obviously because it is where you have the most armor. Is this something that is taught in the police community?
When I went through the academy(1995)they were and still are teaching a bladed stance in defensive tactics. The line of thinking is that you are a smaller target and are in a natural fighting stance. I have since read several articles advocating a direct stance and completely agree with it. I have been in the process of advocating and practicing this technique. I don't wear ceramic plates on a daily basis, but do use a light trama plate in my vest carrier. This coupled with the fact that rounds can go in where there is a gap on the side makes facing your adversary directly only common sense. If I am going to get hit I want it straight on in my vest.
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Old January 8, 2006, 01:35 AM   #38
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Quote:
What I wanted to say in response to a prior post is that we might have so few (none I know of) criminal survivors of gunfights with Austrian police because (i) Austrian Police never roll alone and (ii) any kind of critical tasks (eg search for guns and weapons etc) here is done by SWAT teams. That's the point I tried to make.
Para I am with you, I was not trying to spur an argument. All I was trying to point out is that in the situation with Highway Patrol there is no possibility to have backup teams that could move in a sweep up if the stuff hits the fan, or special teams to conduct searches, just not practical. Troopers cover hundreds of miles in the middle of nowhere. I see the practicallity of these teams close to major points of interest like airports or military bases. Troopers do not patrol such places, that is what our city Police are resposible for. What is practical is for the Troopers wanting to search a car to wait for backup, it is just that simple.

About searching without backup, all I can say is that most supervisors advise strongly against it if not forbidding it. Mostly the rules of thought has changed in that no load of dope is worth your life. Training now days reflects lessons learned from incidents like Coates’.

Something that I did not bring up is that this conflict happened before the search occurred. This started because Coates patted the violator down with the violator facing him. Maybe this could have been prevented if Coates would have had the violator face away and pat him down as if he was about to handcuff him. Coates was a bit relaxed here.

Quote:
And anyway, which drug/gun/corps-trafficer would agree to being searched? That whole idea reminds me of the form you have to fill out when you fly into the USA. One of the first Questions on that form goes something like: "Are you planning a terrorist attack on US soil?". Who in the world would answer that with yes? Which criminal in the world would open his trunk voluntarily to show you the heroine, handgranades or corpses he is smuggling? There is a kind of logic behind these patterns I am not able to comprehend.
As for the consent, it happens more than you would believe. Dopers are dopers and they are not in their right mind in the first place, so don’t try to figure any logic to what a criminal is going to do because there is none.

Quote:
That's why such searches can be done by special response units. It happens on my way to the airport from time to time. SWATs block the street and search each vehicle. Imagine Blackburn in that type of situation. If society has a need to search cars, society should think about the lifes of it's LE-Personell and give them the right to do so and the opportunity to do so as safely as possible.
We should have you preaching to our Congress or State Legislatures. But in the states, to search as safely as possible means to call for backup and not be so over confident as to think you do not have to call for backup because you are six feet tall and weigh 210.
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Old January 8, 2006, 02:24 AM   #39
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XavierBreath, that is perhaps the best post in summarizing the incident I have seen.

To those who have questions about the responding officers conduct or language, please try to understand--and definitely remember this:

We, as cops, have two calls that make our hearts plummet, and will make us drop anything and EVERYTHING to respond. These two calls are "Officer needs assistance", and Officer DOWN".

Here's why: We know that we function beyond the reach of immediate help in most circumstances, with the noteworthy exception of the good folks who will pitch in at a moment's notice. When we hear these calls, we become filled with a single purpose, and that is to get to our brother--or sister--officer's side. It doesn't matter if you are a city beat cop, a county mountie, a state trooper, US Marshal, feeb or MP--or guess what--even a private Security Officer.

Engines spike up and run at the redline. Rubber gets left on the pavement. Lunches or meals hit the dirt post haste and drinks get thrown out the window. The only thing that matters is to help the officer.

And when we arrive, if an officer is down or hurt, if you are anywhere near that officer, please have your hands in plain sight, and try to explain quickly what you are doing. Do NOT have anything like a firearm or weapon in your hands.

Because we are coming out of those cars like missiles; we are targeted on ANYTHING that may pose a threat to the fallen officer, and may God have mercy on anyone who even looks like they have hurt that officer, who does not respond immediately and fully to our commands.

In that case, playtime's over, folks.

Note: while we do respond at the same speed for "Crime in Progress" calls--especially violent crime--the thought of a good friend--or even relative--laying dying of homicidal violence just gets to you in a special way.

God bless all of those who stand in harm's way, and His blessings and mercy on the fallen.

AMEN! This is one of the best posts I have seen on any forum in a long time. God bless all the fallen officers, and God help the rest of us officers while we are wide open throttle to the scene.

Ever met a hero? I met a hero the day in police academy I watched this video. Want to see another scary situation, use the same link and watch the video of Deputy Kyle Dinkheller.

Every time I put my uniform on, I look in the mirror and remember that there are heros looking down on us everyday.

Its hard to watch these videos, especially as a police officer.

Ok, wiping the tears and going to bed.
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Old January 8, 2006, 05:02 AM   #40
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NarcSgt,

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Something that I did not bring up is that this conflict happened before the search occurred. This started because Coates patted the violator down with the violator facing him. Maybe this could have been prevented if Coates would have had the violator face away and pat him down as if he was about to handcuff him. Coates was a bit relaxed here. ...But in the states, to search as safely as possible means to call for backup and not be so over confident as to think you do not have to call for backup because you are six feet tall and weigh 210.
That's what I meant... . No false criticism intended, but this way (analyzing) we can learn from Trooper Coates tragic death and as I understand that very video helped saving the life of many LEOs...
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Old January 8, 2006, 07:02 AM   #41
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ParaBellum, it seems that even though we--US law enforcement and European law enforcement--are separated by distance, we have the same concerns and the same approach in many, many instances. All of us who do or have worn the badge are connected in a way that many people just don't understand.

And, to all--remember that with the enacting into law of HR 18 (I think that's the proper cite), that if you find yourself in a tight spot, that guy or woman at the rest stop--or even in the cars behind you on the interstate--might just turn from tourist to a sheepdog at a moment's notice, coming out of that car badge first to give you a hand. I know I will.

Stay watchful and safe, all--and be sure that you make it home at the end of your shift. God speed.
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Old January 8, 2006, 10:26 AM   #42
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Anyone know a site where that video can be easily downloaded?
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Old January 8, 2006, 11:01 AM   #43
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Very good point Powderman... I have stopped many times on traffic stops and what not with badge and hand allowing the officer to know he/she is not alone.

And others have stopped for me, its a great feeling.

I believe that until you have been there and done that, its impossible to really describe the feelings you get when stopping a car. Its not very comforting when you are alone.
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Old January 8, 2006, 11:04 AM   #44
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It's terrible to see a GOOD cop get it like that....very sickening.
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Old January 8, 2006, 11:13 AM   #45
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True, however, I don't think that should happen to anyone, no matter how good or bad people thing someone is.

Going out and doing your job should never include being murdered.
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Old January 8, 2006, 11:49 AM   #46
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Anyone know a site where that video can be easily downloaded?

Quote:
Anyone know a site where that video can be easily downloaded?
Good question. I'd also like to download it.
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Old January 8, 2006, 06:07 PM   #47
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Quote:
True, however, I don't think that should happen to anyone, no matter how good or bad people thing someone is.

Going out and doing your job should never include being murdered
Amen...
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Old January 9, 2006, 03:51 PM   #48
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.38 special +P / Video donwload?

I. I think this were .38s+P loads and no .357 Magnums
I watched the Video again and I believe, Trooper Coates used only .38+P ammo in his .357 Magnum Revolver. Here are my reasons:

1. The video says "Winchester Hollowpoint +P extra loads". There is no .357 Magnum +P. "+P" is a Term used for 9x19mm, .45 and .38 cartridges

2. There is no muzzle flash that fits a .357 Mag. on the video.

3. The penetration. I still can't believe that five COM hits with a real .357 Mag. would/could have been survived by Blackburn. They might not have incapacitated him on the spot. But given
- the penetration of a .357 Mag.,
- the five COM hits and
- the time it must have taken for Blackburn to make it to a hospital and get surgery and blood bottles,
I just don't find it credible that he could have survived that with 5 COM hits of .357 Magnum.

4. The only source I found saying that it were Mangum cartdidges is: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm and that's not an official source, is it? And they talk about four COM hits, the video mentions five(?).

II. Where/how can we download the video
I tried to download the video and failed. Any ideas how/where this is possible?
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Old January 10, 2006, 11:40 AM   #49
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Parabellum, it all depends where it hits. COM isn't the magic target, it is the set of blood bearing structures. I imagine it is possible to miss all of them.

Also, it is possible to be saved depending on which is hit. Officer Lim, IIRC, was shot in the heart with a 357, finished the fight and was saved by emergency surgery.

I think I read, but I trust no urban myths, that the shooter was very fat and the rounds went into the fat. Is there a real report of the wounds on him?

The thing that bothers me is that the officer inititated a search for drugs and died over some marijuana. Is this really a correct priority for society such that it causes the loss of a good man?

A friend of my daughter's who is a sweet young lady and now a lawyer was stopped commuting to school and asked if she would object to a search. The officer probably saw the university sticker and maybe thought it would be a cheap drug hit. I cant' conceive of any other probable cause. The friend was a refugee from the USSR and was mightly impressed by our techniques also.

Don't mean to hijack - the shooter is scum but the general priority just seems wrong to me.
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Old January 11, 2006, 07:43 AM   #50
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Maybe Silvertips...

I discussed the penetration +P/Mag. issue with colleagues. They tested the Winchester Silvertips in the 1990s and shot them (.45, 9x19mm and .357 Mag) into dry phonebooks. They all entered only two inches. And the loads hardly reached IPSC Minor factor (impulse). That would also explain why the 5'7" 300# guy was not lethally wounded...
So, I'll stick with my Glock 19 and 16 EMB Bullets + 1 Spare with 17 more (here you can see, what this load is capable of)

I also wonder about the general situation and the search laws and lone officers in the US (see my posts above)...
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