The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 15, 2005, 01:31 AM   #1
ren219
Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2005
Location: northern utah
Posts: 35
Help with misfiring 1860 colt replica

I shoot an 1858 Pietta replica. I use #10 caps and it has always functioned flawlesly. My brother owns an 1860 Colt by Pietta. He uses #11 caps. The colt will only fire one or two chambers on the first try. After pulling the trigger once on a chamber and it doesn't fire it will always fire on the second try with the original cap. I didn't have my thinking cap on that day, so I didn't try a #10 cap on his gun. What is the difference between a #10 and a #11 cap? I inspected the nipples and they look just like the ones on my 58. I am very mechanicly inclined and have disassembled and reassembled every single part on both guns, but all I can do is clean them. I don't know what else to look for. I would be very grateful for any input.
Thanks!
ren219 is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 01:44 AM   #2
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Size

Size is the differance...First check the cones to see if they have mushroomed or rolled around thre edges, if they have a Dremel and one of those grey green grinding wheels will dress them quickly. if not a file and a stone to take the edge off so the cap fits down on the cone well. If the do fit proper...Get CCI #11 caps in case he is using Remington #11's... the CCI are just a hair bigger. Usually when caps don't fire the first time it's because they arent't seated down far enough...Hammer seating it the safest way to seat a tight cap. Or the hammer face ids misaligned to the angle of the cone itself, not striking squarely. CCI#11's are all I use on everything. And if they fall off squeezinng them does not hurt a thing...but falling off can cause chain fires. Do to hot gases from ignition throwing very hot little sparks back thru the cone and possibley touching off an adjcent uncapped cone. Ergo Chain fire...
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 01:56 AM   #3
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
1858 vs 1860

Ren the differance between th 1858 and the 1860 is the 1858 hammer hits harder and the cones are designed on a bit of an angle. Rems have a more sure fire design. He could have a weak mainspring, or the frame / spring scew may be a little loose. Something to check. The mainspring are usually stronger than Colts, and also externally adjustable. I am a rem man truely but I love all my Colts too. When I tell people have 2 1858 rems and 7 Colts they ask me " I thought you said you were a Rem man?" Tell um " I am, I only need 2 Rems, but i need 7 Colts." LoL!
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 02:12 AM   #4
ren219
Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2005
Location: northern utah
Posts: 35
Wow. Thanks for all the imput. I gather then that a #10 cap is smaller than a #11? None of the caps have ever fallen off so they must fit a little snug, maybe too tight? I don't know what brand he is using but I will find out. Next I think I will try putting the nipples from my 58 on the colt and see if that changes anything. The last time I cleaned it for him all the screws were loose on the gun, so maybe that had something to do with it. He's a cop, swat team sniper, firearms instuctor, and accident reconstuction expert, so he only has time to shoot the colt not clean and maintain it! lol! That's where I come in, what a good little brother I am! Hehe!
ren219 is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 02:16 AM   #5
ren219
Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2005
Location: northern utah
Posts: 35
Smokin Gun, I don't blame you for owning colts. My next purchase will be an 1860. And I'm pretty sure an 1851 will be under the Christmas tree from my wife, due in no small part to my older brother!
ren219 is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 02:19 AM   #6
mec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2001
Posts: 1,516
My 1860 would fire remington caps every time even though it had a light mainspring. It would not fire cci caps on the first strike. I put in a different mainspring and it would then fire cci caps too. CCI caps are reliable but the have a thicker cup than remington.
mec is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 02:21 AM   #7
ren219
Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2005
Location: northern utah
Posts: 35
mec, where did you get the other mainspring? Thanks for the info!
ren219 is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 02:35 AM   #8
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Mec my Pietta Target 1858 has a mainsrping that'll take your thumb off...and the screw I removed and is inside stuck in the grip for safe keeping. I got this one New In Box (NIB) and it is of 1994 vintage with a BD date stamp. Here's the site I use incase anyone is interested in proofmaks and dates.
https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/P...Proofmarks.pdf
Anyway I slickered this one up and i do like it with the sites...feels like cheatin though...LoL! My other Rem is an Old Armi San Paolo love it a bit smaller in grip size very authetic lookin'. Tryin to buy a couple more of them from a friend in Indiana.
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 07:49 AM   #9
mec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2001
Posts: 1,516
I keep several of those springs on hand and have gotten them from Cimarron Arms and VTI gunparts. I've never been aware of any graduation in spring weights but the one that came in the army was lighter than any others Ive seen.
mec is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 08:35 AM   #10
Remington kid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2005
Location: South Central West Virginia
Posts: 612
ry the new #10 Remington caps. They have improved there caps two fold and they are about the best I have tried. They are also much hotter. You don't say how your loading the caps?? If you are useing your finger you need to run that cap on down on the nipple with a doll rod so that it bottoms out on the nipple.Make sure that the nipples are clean and dry. I like to use pipe cleaners in the hole and then a pick. Then I hold the cylinder up to the light and look through the chambers and the nipple holes. This is a much cheaper way to do it then fireing caps to clean and dry the nipples, that can get expensive! Also tap the side on the cylinder each time you place a powder charge in it to settle the powder on down in the chamber closer to the nipple hole.
If none of the above works then I would think that you need new nipples or a heavier hammer spring.
Remington kid is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 09:31 AM   #11
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Capping

The safest way to cap a BP Rev, not just my opinion but some testimonials. Is to use a ten cap inline capper, modified at the end especially for Rem owners. Slide the cap on all 6 cones then hammer seat them pointing down range or in a safe direction. 1) you are seating a cap on a loaded chamber aligned with the barrel if it happens to fire its down the ballel not off the side of your rev. 2) I have seen pics of a guy that blew the end of his thumb apart by hand pressing a too tight fitting cap. So what would happen if using a screw driver on a cap out of battery and a cap went off? And the chamber blowing that screwdriver into you. The only Rev I could safely fit and I tried Rem#10 Hot caps on was my Paterson and every 2 or 3 caps I had to hit twice but the did go off. All the years I have been shooting and using the CCI#11's I have not had that problem, and I feel it's merely that they seat all the way down after no matter how many shots and fouling up of the cones. I do squeeze the side for a snug fit, and it works for me.
I think the the I was speakinf of is in SASS froum...I check to be sure. That wa an eye opener for me. I sqeeze um now set them all on and hanmmer seat them.
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 10:29 AM   #12
ren219
Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2005
Location: northern utah
Posts: 35
Thanks again everyone! This is great info. I won't be able to shoot untill this saturday, but I'll try all this out and see if I can't solve the problem.
ren219 is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 10:31 AM   #13
Remington kid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2005
Location: South Central West Virginia
Posts: 612
Please believe me when I tell you that if you have to pinch the cap to keep it on your using the wrong size caps.
Try the German #1075 if you don't like the Remington #10. All of the CCI #10 that I have tried are smaller than the Remington #10 so some people "think" that the #10 is to small. Just try the Remington #10 and you will see the difference.
Also placing a cap on a nipple is not a dangerous thing to do. Trying to shove the cap all the way down as hard as you can is not what I was talking about.
Use a 3/8" doll rod with a piece of trimed leather on the end to seat the cap. I have been doing it this way sinse I was a kid and have NEVER had a cap go off.
The talk above is that the spring may be to weak to set off the cap, If that's true then it takes more to set it off than finger or doll rod preasue and I'm here to tell you that's the truth. The guy that had one go off on his thumb is one in a millon or more and he's trying to seat the cap, not just place it on the nipple.
The problem I've had with my altered in line caper is that as you slide the capper back off the nipple many times the next cap falls out.
My 1858 Remington hammer springs are not to weak and in fact I took them way down and tapered them so that they are much easier to cock the hammer back. Never broke a spring yet and they set off #11, CCI #10, German #1075 and fhe Remington #10 every time.
Do it how you want to and I sure hope you get the problem fixed.
Remington kid is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 11:47 AM   #14
Old Dragoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2005
Location: The Republic of Californi
Posts: 581
I use CCI #10's on my pietta '58's and they work well....now I haven't shot that much with the BP cylinders, but they worked well. I also modified an inline brass(looks exactly like your's Mike) to work on the Rem. reworked the end to match the coutouts for the nipples in the cylinder. works great now. the #11, I forget the MFG. not CCI were too big and even pinched lost a few during firing. CCI's no loss during firing, no misfires. No misfires on the other ones when they stayed on.

Haven't been able to find the new Remington #10's yet.
Old Dragoon is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 07:10 PM   #15
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Sorry I just noticed this was sorta a double postin' don't know how did that...
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

Last edited by Smokin_Gun; December 17, 2005 at 06:19 AM.
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 07:17 PM   #16
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
#11 Caps

Rem I have been shooting these things for 23 years. Please trust that I have tried every other make size or way to hold my mouth just right when doing it. I have researched the fact the there were not differant sizes back in the day...and the method used was cap pinching so it would stay on and be seated. Now I don't mind the friendly advise and I do appreciate it Rem. But I must tell ya I do know what I am talkin about. A tight cap is dangerous if you happen to be hunting Wild Boar and one is chargin you and it goes snap! A cap that slides on the cone all the way down is a proper fit even if you need to squeeze it a bit. Since I have decided years ago, after tryin all the afore mentioned, to Use only CCI#11 caps and use the method I told you I have had no misfires do to a cap not going off. I tried the New Hot Rem #10 caps. They misfired 4 times in my Paterson and 3times in my 1858 Rem...they are still sittin here on my bench to test revolvers I work on. Everyone's expiriances may differ...but after that many years of testing i did finally circum to the CCI#11 caps work well on anything...Just like the Mfg. Specs Recomend...most all nipples or rplacement nipples are #11's All Piettas and Ubertis say to use #11 cap..I say there's sumthin to that.
But as long as everyone trys and does whatever it takes to have fun is really all that matters.
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 09:29 PM   #17
Remington kid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2005
Location: South Central West Virginia
Posts: 612
Smokin_gun , What you state may well be what you believe but it doesn't make it so,Lol. I ,like you have been at this a long time. Started in BP when I was 12 and I'm 59 now so I'm not the new kid on the block as you seem to think.The Remington #10 slides on the nipples of 4 of my Remington 44 cylinders as if they were made for them. Nothing forced or hard about it. The German made #1075 fit just fine also, just a hair looser. If you are happy pinching caps then have it , I'm sure no one will care. I can't even remember the last time i had a cap fail to fire or foul the works.You should know by now that not all the nipples are not created equal and one Remington may like CCI #10's and the other may like Reminton#10 and another , like yours may like #11. Nothing new there. I have had #11 fall off even after I pinched them right after I got my Remingtons years ago and decided that's not the way to go.Thats when a old gun smith I know who made all his BP guns from scratch and told me that if you have to mess with a cap to get it to stay on you need to do some work.Ever hear of chamfering your nipples with a file in a drill press so that #10 fit perfectly instead of useing over sized #11? That #11 may fall off some day when a big bore is running at you.
Please believe me when I tell you that I know what works and what doesn't with the Remingtons and I sure don't agree with some of your advice. That doesn't mean that I think your wrong, it's because I'm willing to accept the fact that I don't know it all and that is a trait that you seem to be lacking for some reason.
It's great to offer help or an openion , thats what this site is all about or at least the way some of us try to keep it. Thank's for your openion but your facts or what you try to state as fact is lacking. Keep your mind open to the fact that all revolvers may not act the same as yours and you will be fine.
Remington kid is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 10:35 PM   #18
mec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2001
Posts: 1,516
Facts hard to pin down in the percussion revolver arena. Always have been.
We read that fffg was a pretty typical early propellant for 19th century revolvers and then find that there was no real consensus as to what it was. The various companies couldn't agree on what screen size should be used to produce the (different sized flakes). We really can't tell whether Goex, Swiss, Elephant, pyrodex or none or all of them might most closely match performance of the 19th century powder performance

Caps: A while back, a local guy who has been heavy into the field for decades told me that the number 11 cci cap was just abou the same as the #10 remington. We now get a few @10 CCIs here and they are just enough smaller than the #10 remingtons that I have to hammer seat them real well or get misfires.

Ball and bullet issues are another one. At least four .44 bullet weights are listed in the 19th Century literature about paper cartridges. Some of the bullet weights and powder charges seem too large to fit in the .36 and .44 chambers. When I ordered some battlefield pick-up bullets, they turn out eight grains apart and not an exact match for any of the ones mentioned in the paper ctg literature.

Modern replicas seem to have chamber measurements ranging from .448 - 450 or so and an old remington we measured went .452.

So, about all we can do is have happy fun and use our imaginations.
mec is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 11:55 PM   #19
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Well said Mec ...Bravo!
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 16, 2005, 12:11 AM   #20
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Rk

I reread all my threads and failed to see where told anyone to do what I do. If I impled that to you or anyone else...My Bad
This statement felt just like you were telling me I was totally wrong and full of ****!{Please believe me when I tell you that if you have to pinch the cap to keep it on your using the wrong size caps.} Tell me just what did they do in the War of attrition, go to Wally World? LoL!
Now I will admit that usually as most of my threads I will say, "now this is only what I do" or something to that effect. But Just maybe something that was directed to me let it slip my mind to make that statement this time. So sorry if it troubled you so RK. I will try to be more careful.

Happy Holidays ... too close to Christmas or anytime for bad tidings... see ya around....
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 16, 2005, 12:16 AM   #21
Old Dragoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2005
Location: The Republic of Californi
Posts: 581
MEC, RK, & SG,
Let me add this to MEC's last line; ...And use what works for us.
Old Dragoon is offline  
Old December 16, 2005, 12:19 AM   #22
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Howdy Dragoon

Agreed...and that's all I was sharing what works for me...and countless other that I do know.
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 18, 2005, 01:01 PM   #23
Wayner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 2005
Posts: 120
capping

Well, In my humble opinion I'd have to say that there is a lot of good info here. Some differs from the other. Who gives the "best "advice? Me. ha ha ha I say read it all and make up your own mind and that's good advice right? I can't see where anyone asked about the personality traits of the other repliers though and find it a squib-load of common courtesy for one poster (Remington Kid) to remark on the personality of the other poster(Smokin-Gun).I don't like reading that kind of crap especially when there doesn't seem to be much difference between the general concensus of one guys post compared to the other. I better not say what my opinion about caps and all is for fear I may sound like a know it all. Well.... on second thought I'll state my opinion anyhow. Please forgive my attitude if I sound like a know it all. My opinion about the cap thing is that the cap should fit the nipple and slide on snug and seated all the way for the cap ignition compound to be resting on the nipple. That takes more doing than some care to do or know how to do if none of the various cap sizes that are tried will seat snug and fully. That's the first thing to do. Try every cap available to see if it's possible to find one size or brand that fits well. If that can't happen then it is "crimping" time with whatever cap fits fully seated or "chamfering time" for those that are mechanically inclined or have a qualified gun-smith to do the job for them. Trouble is that many gunsmiths are unfamiliar with cap&baller. The person taking work to some gunsmiths may have to know how to explain what it is they want done exactly. That is where Remington Kid (brought out the chamfering idea) could be helpful by explaining what that proceedure is exactly. Well, I would consider myself a gunsmith of sorts that has been "doin it for years" (ha ha ha ) and know people a little. Some just want the info that can most easily get them out there shooting and not working on or taking the gun to a gunsmith. Not everyone has a buddy like Old Dragoon or Remington Kid or Smokin Gun that can be experienced enough to just do it for them for the cost of a cheap six pack. ha ha That is where the info that is posted here can help a fellow new to the cap&baller game. I mean that both sides of the coin seem to have been explained and the reader can make his or her own desision as to what needs to be done for them and their gun to get them up and shooting safely. Personally I'd have to say that although I am qualified to chamfer nipples I don't always do it. I find myself pinching caps or finding a different brand of cap that fits better more often than I do the chamfering thing. Most people would follow suit I'd guess since chamfering nipples is not really as simple as it sounds. " Easier said than done", right Remington _Gunsmith_Kid ? I do hammer seat my caps on the nipples though since that seems to be the most convienient way since the hammer is right there anyhow. Hammer seating is not allowed at CASS matches though so learning to use a dowell rod is a good idea too. I think more could be explained in the chamfering, mushrooming, hammer face angle ect. than was done. See yas pards!
Wayner is offline  
Old December 18, 2005, 03:20 PM   #24
Jbar4Ranch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 1999
Location: Near Helena, Montana
Posts: 1,520
My Uberti Walker clone uses #11 caps and will absolutely not go bang all six times with CCI caps, but Remingtons it's been 100%.
__________________
Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced...

SASS 47015
Jbar4Ranch is offline  
Old December 18, 2005, 10:25 PM   #25
gmatov
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2005
Posts: 346
Old Dragoon,

Way up where you say you can't get # 10 Rems, all my local Gander Mountain stocks right now are 10's. Bought the last 300 11's for my Colt Repros.

Gotta pinch for the Rem(s), will have to go get some 10's. 3.79 per 100. Too damned much when you can buy Large Pistol for a buck 60. Cabela's, they are 3.29, at the store, but 39 something per thou on line.

I think they oughta fit, too, and if you gotta file or sand the nipples to make them fit snug enough to be easy to seat and not fall off, that is the way to go.

I would prefer to make a mandrel with the right thread to screw the nipple into than to chuck the threads into ANY drill chuck. If you tighten enough to keep it from slipping, you might make flats on the threads. If too loose, might spin and wipe the crests of the threads down. Either one might bind in the cylinder, going in and, mebbe, not coming back out.

Cheers,

George

I don't know where the hammer/face angle comes in with BP pistols.

A Rem has angled nipples, so the hammer face is at an angle. The Colt replicas have the nipples set parallel to the bore, so the hammer face is perpendicular to that, ie. straight up and down, square to the chambers. Why you would change any angle of either, I cannot see. Why you would file or grind down any of the HAMMERS to fit a nipple, I cannot see.

Last edited by gmatov; December 19, 2005 at 12:29 AM.
gmatov is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14148 seconds with 7 queries