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Old December 10, 2005, 01:40 PM   #76
Glenn E. Meyer
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It's all statistical decision theory - what risk to you want to take?

1. You shoot an innocent who seemingly is acting suspiciously
2. You let a terrorist or mentally disturbed person carry out an extreme action.

What are your criteria for deciding when to act.

I would also point out that memories after the fact are extremely fragile and subject to reconstruction. While police certainly have lied about incidents and framed people - one can discern motivation. Sometimes it is to solve cases and up their seeming success ratio.

However, what is motivation of the marshalls to take an action such as this without good reason?

I would trust their decision processes more than that of an individual who boasted about 'being ready to break necks'.

The man clearly was acting in a bizaare fashion. Just getting off a plane in today's world is not normal - one could contact the flight crew if there was a real reason. Memories of who heard what will be difficult to parse, esp. with witnesses such as Mr. I will Break Your Neck.

You need an investigation with folks cognizant of the decision factors as happened in the Diallo case. Ranting here based on such little evidence is really worthless.

I might be wrong when the evidence comes in but I can't fault the marshalls on first glance. I could be wrong but we will see.
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Old December 10, 2005, 04:06 PM   #77
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Call me cold hearted, but I don't see it as a tragic event. It was stupidity on the wifes part to let him get on an airplane. Growing up with a bi-polar father I can tell you when my dad decided he didn't need his meds he also didn't go anywhere, not even the grocery store. You never knew when or what was going to trigger an "episode" when he was off his meds. We certainly wouldn't have put him in an enclosed airplane flying at 35,000 feet and hoped for the best. IMHO the family is a bunch of knuckleheads and it's too bad stupidity isn't a crime.
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Old December 10, 2005, 04:22 PM   #78
Glenn E. Meyer
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One might feel concern for the Marshalls. While it might be shown that the shoot was legitimate, we know that such shootings do take a toll on personnel. Before someone says a good LEO, etc. should not be affected - that's just not true from numerous well research studied.
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Old December 10, 2005, 05:02 PM   #79
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Has there been any more reports from the people on the plane that were claiming that the word bomb was never used and the Feds were trying to pressure people into saying it was?
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Old December 10, 2005, 06:18 PM   #80
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No Shecky,
what a News @$$ does is to find the least plausible story available that meets his or her adgenda and push it through the system to the exclusion of all else, including the truth.

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Old December 13, 2005, 10:40 AM   #81
molonlabe
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So whats the truth here?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/akers/akers24.html
or this

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1389642

My first impluse was to think (Gee, that poor officer) but with this story, I want to know more.

That contrasts with a passenger who "recalled Alpizar saying, 'I've got to get off, I've got to get off.'" Another remembered that "he wasn't saying anything; he was just running." Nor did this witness immediately think, "Terrorism!" Being a rational person instead of a hyped-up air marshal, he settled for a likelier explanation: "I said to myself, 'It is probably a person who took the wrong plane.'" A second man of similar rationality assumed Alpizar was nauseated and heading for the men’s room. Furthermore, Mrs. Alpizar chased her husband, trying to help and inadvertently explaining the situation to everyone, including the trigger-happy sky-cops. A passenger told CNN, "She was just saying her husband was sick, her husband was sick."
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Old December 13, 2005, 03:23 PM   #82
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So:

1. The air marshalls are hallucinating and/or lying

2. These passengers (one of whom brags about breaking necks) have perfect memories of a dynamic situation - when we know that memories are really suspect and terribly vulnerable to all kinds of errors of storage, retrieval and reconstruction.

I would take umbrage with Mr. Wah, Wah My Cell Phone was karated out of my mitts. If you think you have an incident going - can phones be used to set off explosives or communicate with accomplices. That complaint was from the 'neckbreaker' hero. Maybe it was a taekwando chop BTW.

It comes down to what error you want to make. An innocent is shot vs. the chance you could have a terrorist incident happening. You have aberrant behavior. The wife could be a smoke screen.

It's sad - but if this guy was unstable - how about he doesn't fly? Or go on vacation to Columbia.
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Old December 13, 2005, 03:40 PM   #83
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I agree memories are suspect especially during a dynamic situation but ALL the memories? That makes me suspect.

I think this is grounds for an investigation. I would hope they interviewed each person separately and analyze the responses. I would think that would become public record so leading may be identified.
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Old December 13, 2005, 04:16 PM   #84
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Yep, you are correct. They need intensive interviews from folks trained in such techniques to avoid suggestion and bias. The DOJ or FBI had a team of experts do a report on such awhile ago.

It's certainly possible the marshalls misheard or they didn't. I just cringe when I see folks with political position A or B, right nut or left nut go ballistic without the investigation.
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Old December 13, 2005, 04:45 PM   #85
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Hind sight is always 20/20. As stated, what if he did have a bomb and his wife was distraction? What if they blew the damn plane up? What would the news asses say then? That we don't do enough to protect their asses. Thats what they would be saying! :barf: This was a tragic event but they Mr. Alpizar should not have been off his meds, especially in these kinds of situations.
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Old December 13, 2005, 04:48 PM   #86
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OK, so far 84 posts on this, and what do we have?

He was justified.

No he wasn't.

Wuz too!

Wuz not!



Closed until either A. New solid FACTS are revealed on the incident, or B. we want to discuss the overall incident from a tactical or training standpoint, (minus the "wus-not!-wuz-too!'s" )

Feel free to start Pt. II if either A or B applies.
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