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Old December 9, 2005, 12:08 AM   #51
jeff_troop
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i say he did do what was right.

you can never be certain until it is to late. so you do your job as directed.
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Old December 9, 2005, 02:04 AM   #52
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shecky,
What the news @$$es have done is to hunt around until they found a guy on the flight, seated 24 rows behind the mentally ill fellow, who says he did NOT hear the guy say anything about a bomb and broadcast his story. Then they find a "woman on the street and another News @$$" who thinks the nasty evil skymarshalls should have been able to just "shoot to wound him or shoot the him in the leg or something that won't really hurt the poor man" and they broadcast that. I'm waiting for the NYT to print a story headlined" Evil SkyMarshalls murder hispanic man while crowd watches in airport".

That's what the News@$$es have done.

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Old December 9, 2005, 10:52 AM   #53
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There's some idiot interviewed on the Time site who claimed it was unnecessary but he was on alert so that if a bad thing he could break the neck of the BGs.

Here's the URL - http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...138965,00.html

McAlhany says he tried to see what was happening just in case he needed to take evasive action. "I wanted to make sure if anything was coming toward me and they were killing passengers I would have a chance to break somebody's neck," he says. "I was looking through the seats because I wanted to see what was coming.


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Old December 9, 2005, 11:26 AM   #54
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What the news @$$es have done is to hunt around until they found a guy on the flight, seated 24 rows behind the mentally ill fellow, who says he did NOT hear the guy say anything about a bomb and broadcast his story. Then they find a "woman on the street and another News @$$" who thinks the nasty evil skymarshalls should have been able to just "shoot to wound him or shoot the him in the leg or something that won't really hurt the poor man" and they broadcast that. I'm waiting for the NYT to print a story headlined" Evil SkyMarshalls murder hispanic man while crowd watches in airport".

That's what the News@$$es have done.
And is any of this reporting demonstrably false? Why is reporting suddenly wrong?

I've heard several seemingly conflicting reports of the incident. I'm sure that investigators are sifting through the same information. Are they "@$$es" too for seeking out this info? These things are always ironed out, reports are sometimes mistaken, incomplete, or out of context. This is nothing new. Remember all those evil people killing innocents in NOLA and shooting at rescuers?
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Old December 9, 2005, 12:46 PM   #55
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I still feel that this guy a a victim, but a victim of his mental illness rather than what happened to him. Its not his fault he was born with the illness. That is why I feel that most of the people on this forum have some sympathy for him and his family. Did he deserve to die for his actions? Given the circumstances, yes.

As for shooting to wound rather than shooting to kill, an injured terrorist might still be able to detonate the bomb. I had an opportunity to see an FBI HRT demonstration last weekend and they were explaining about shooting to stop a perpetrator in his tracks. The instructor said that the only reliable "instant" stop is a shot to the medulla oblongata part of the brain which is about a 2 inch tall section right behind your eyes. Basically they are trained to shoot between the eyes. This supposedly drops the bad guy like a sack of potatoes and does not even give them time to pull the trigger or detonate a bomb.

By the way, for all those who knock Glocks, that is now the standard issue weapon for all FBI agents. The FBI SWAT guys usually carry 1911's in .45 acp though. I guess that is saying a lot for the venerable 1911 and the .45 acp if FBI SWAT uses it.
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Old December 9, 2005, 05:26 PM   #56
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I'm going to be the devil's advocate, though admittedly I haven't heard....

all the reports, so I may be off base here. But at first glance, I can't believe you all are just blindly swallowing the leo's story, hook line and sinker.

So we're supposed to believe this guy:

1. said he had a bomb, and
2. reached into a bag?

Uh-huh, just like the UK cops said Mr. DeMenezes:

1. had on a thick coat
2. was acting suspiciously
3. ran from them

which all turned out to be complete lies, made up to cover their butts. You guys actually trust a gummint agent to tell the truth? He may or may not have, but who knows.....

The shoot to wound thing is ludicrous - you don't do that - either he is a threat or isn't. But people in the gov't, including LEOs, LIE all the time. Not all of them, but many of them. They're very good at it, having had lots of practice.
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Old December 9, 2005, 05:27 PM   #57
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Quote:
In the ensuing events, many of the passengers began crying in fear, he recalls. "They were pointing the guns directly at us instead of pointing them to the ground," he says "One little girl was crying. There was a lady crying all the way to the hotel."

McAlhany said he saw Alpizar before the flight and is absolutely stunned by what unfolded on the airplane. He says he saw Alpizar eating a sandwich in the boarding area before getting on the plane. He looked normal at that time, McAlhany says. He thinks the whole thing was a mistake: "I don't believe he should be dead right now."
yeah, they were definitely traumatized by the air marshalls guns, not by the deranged person not complying with orders from authorities who forced them to use deadly force!
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Old December 9, 2005, 05:30 PM   #58
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You guys actually trust a gummint agent to tell the truth?
are we supposed tp believe they picked this guy out of a crowd and shot him for no reason?
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Old December 9, 2005, 05:32 PM   #59
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I don't really see why a jack-booted storm team needs to board a plane with 200 people sitting in close proximity with one another...

They didn't have any leads that anyone else was a BG.

They pointed loaded weapons at a lot of people who didn't have anything to do with the crazy guy.
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Old December 9, 2005, 05:38 PM   #60
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are we supposed tp believe they picked this guy out of a crowd and shot him for no reason?
Of course you'd be WISE to believe that, since that's precisely what happened to Mr. DeMenezes in this post-9/11 trigger happy hysteria. LEOs make mistakes all the time, such as serving warrants at the wrong house with no-knocks before dawn, then shooting the occupants who don't know what the hell is going on, and come to investigate. I certainly wouldn't put it past some cops to shoot for 'contempt of cop', then try to cover it up with a lie. I'm just looking for evidence here, and an LEOs word is not good evidence IMO. It is SOME evidence, but not GOOD evidence.
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Old December 9, 2005, 05:43 PM   #61
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They pointed loaded weapons at a lot of people who didn't have anything to do with the crazy guy.
they must have had their telepathic mind readers turned off and were unable to determine beyond any doubt that the threat was stopped.
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Old December 9, 2005, 05:49 PM   #62
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what "threat"? He's agitated - that alone is not a threat.

Quote:
He threatened that he had a bomb in his backpack,” said Brian Doyle, spokesman for the U.S. Homeland Security Department
Quote:
at some point, he uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb," James T. Bauer, the Federal Air Marshal Service's agent in charge in Miami.
Hmmm, interesting - a lot of people that *weren't there* and have a strong interest in covering up the story know all about this alleged threat.

Show me a WITNESS, other than the air marshall himself, who says he heard that there's a bomb? Can they come up with even ONE witness on board this very CROWDED plane who heard the deceased say the word "bomb"?

I just can't believe these news media outlets are actually running the the bomb threat thing as a 'fact' in their lead paragraphs, rather than attributing it solely as a quote to the fed air marshall spokesman, without one witness who says so. The media are misleading us all right - in favor of the government, not the other way around.

Quote:
"At that point, he appeared to be reaching into his carry-on bag
Appeared to be... uh-huh. Where have I *amadou diallo & about a hundred other wrongful shootings* heard that before? And do they mean the SAME BAG that was thoroughly screened for explosives minutes before at the TSA checkpoint? Or are we now admitting that our screeners are wholly ineffective at protecting us from bomb-wielders - which is it?

Guys, if we don't fear & distrust our government after Waco, Ruby Ridge, Patriot Act, Jose Padillo, & DeMenezes, there's something SERIOUSLY gone awry here.
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Old December 9, 2005, 06:06 PM   #63
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will that even satisfy you though? or will you then want to see documented evidence that the suspect SCREAMED he had a bomb?

law enforcement deals with this type of situation often. furtive movements to what could be a weapon will prompt a quick lead infusion. if you have a problem with that, then dont make furtive movements.

and why is it that you want to hear another passenger corroborate the word of the marshalls?

why do i get the feeling that if the deranged and now dead suspect was of middle eastern descent we wouldnt be having this conversation? post 9/11 everyone in the pro-gun firearm community online wanted armed air marshalls on board each and every flight to handle just this type of situation. whats changed since then?
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Old December 9, 2005, 06:18 PM   #64
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Incredible, some of you people. Already, the anti-leos and govmint agent types are all over this (as TFL has a larger than most gathering of these sorts).
1) Just b/c some passenger (Edit: sorry type-O) says I didn't hear it, doesn't mean it wasn't said. You can't fit 130 people on a jetway.
2) If someone says I have a bomb, you tell him to stop, and he reaches into his backpack, do you wait to see what he does? That is not what you are trained to do, nor what you are expected to do. If there had been a bomb, it could've killed a lot pf people. Whether he had one or not really doesn't matter. At that time, at that place, he was a threat.
3) All these people said the guy was acting crazy when he was at the ticket lines. His wife knew he was in a manic state before getting on the plane. WHO IS AT FAULT here, people? If one or two people had spoken up about that guy instead of just minding their own business, maybe he would've been told not to board.
His wife. Why the hell would you bring a man in a manic state onto a plane with 200 other people flying at 25k feet??!!
Now he goes crazy. Crazy people hurt other people. That's why they are on medication!
Let the investigation take its course, and review the results.
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Old December 9, 2005, 06:22 PM   #65
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I have no earthly idea what descent he is of as of this moment, nor do I care, so you're waaay off base there. What's that got to do with it. This is about an American citizen, just like you or me that was KILLED because he (a) wanted to get off of a plane, and (b) was guilty of 'contempt of cop' - failing to stop when the marshall said stop.

Of course it would satisfy me if he had said bomb. Then there'd be EVIDENCE of a potential THREAT!

Looks look, shall we?

Quote:
“I heard him saying to his wife, ‘I’ve got to get off the plane,’” McAlhany said. “He bumped me, bumped a couple of stewardesses. He just wanted to get off the plane.”

Alpizar ran up the aisle into the first-class cabin, where marshals chased him onto the jetway, McAlhany said.

McAlhany said he “absolutely never heard the word ‘bomb’ at all.” . . .
ACTUAL WITNESS ===> He never said bomb.

Quote:
—"Miami-Dade police Lt. Veronica Ferguson issued a statement saying early indications point to Alpizar running frantically from the airplane “with a backpack strapped to his chest, yelling that he had a bomb.”
NOT EVEN THERE ====> Said that he said the word bomb.

Very odd, don't you think, that in story after story, every single person who said that the guy said the word bomb either (a) wasn't there, or (b) is an air marshall themselves. Yet, OTOH, out of ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTEEN people on the plane, they can't come up with one, uno, who heard that, and in fact some that were very close and are actually testifying that he NEVER said the word bomb. Y'alls BS meters are seriously miscalibrated, I might suggest.

So far there's at least THREE government agents who they have trotted out to claim that the guy said the word bomb. And none of them were there. Nor can they identify the name of a person upon whom they are relying for that allegation, other than the Leos themselves. Maybe everyone except the leos had earplugs in? Is that a new requirement of the TSA?

Quote:
WHO IS AT FAULT here, people?
Umm, easy one there...the air marshall who carried out the death sentence without trial for contempt of cop.

Oh, and I LOVE how the backpack is now 'strapped to his chest'. That's a cute little demonizing bit of wordplay that wasn't present before. I guess you guys believed Janet Reno too, that David Koresh was a threat to our society.
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Old December 9, 2005, 06:38 PM   #66
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1stF, I finally figured out what boiled you over in the 1st couple of sentences. It was a type-O on my part, not a slander.
Secondly, you put ACTUAL WITNESS. What about the air marshalls. Are they not ACTUALL WITNESSES in the same vein as your witness? Unless of course your witnesses didin't hear it because they were not in the same earshot as the marshalls.
Again, he didin't get shot b/c he didn't freeze.
This really boils down to individuals who understand crisis situations and the thought processes and tactics that are involved in them, and those that do not. Those that MMQ and wait to get all the details before making a decision. That is why the MMQs are not in jobs such as these. But where they are, they usually get people killed through lack of action as much as those that kill through action. And in this case, a lack of action theoretically could've been 130 dead instead of 1.
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Old December 9, 2005, 06:40 PM   #67
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*snip* This is about an American citizen, just like you or me that was KILLED because he (a) wanted to get off of a plane, and (b) was guilty of 'contempt of cop' - failing to stop when the marshall said stop. *snip*
Drawn conclusions here are being presented as fact. Before fingerpointing, I strongly suggest that we wait to see if there is indeed someone or something to point a finger at.

This thread is deteriorating at an alarming rate. Its future will depend on how fast and how much the temperature drops here gentlemen.
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Old December 9, 2005, 06:42 PM   #68
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McAlhany said he “absolutely never heard the word ‘bomb’ at all.”
please go back and re-read the entire article from the time website.
you will notice that the suspect was at the rear of the plane, and this so-called 'eyewitness' claims to have been in 24c, about the middle of the plane. Could he have heard every thing the suspect said as he came down the aisle, and went to the front of the plane?

again, there is only ONE supposed eyewitness that has come forward and said 'i didnt hear him screaming at the top of his lungs that he had a bomb, nor did he pass out cards with the message printed in braille to the blind, nor did he have an American Sign Language translator signing his words to the hearing impaired, so obviously he never said it!

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Old December 9, 2005, 06:43 PM   #69
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This is what really happened:

The guy probably got sick. He ran.

They asked, "Why are you getting off the plane?"

He says, "I'm gonna vomit!" They hear, "I'm gonna bomb it!"

They yell, "STOP!"

He says, "I gotta go!" They hear, "It's gonna blow!"

Just kidding. Sorry. The subject is so heavy I had to lighten up a bit.

Personally, if someone demands money with his hand under his coat and starts to whip his arm out, I'm not waiting to find out if it's really a gun or just a stick. I'm going to act. Run, hide, shoot, or comply? Whether he tells me he has a gun or not, it would be justifiable to shoot.

If a man acts like a bomber, and has a backpack and reaches inside, you're in pretty much the same situation. Sure there were a hundred people on the plane and they all heard or saw something totally different. Let's not rush to any wild conclusions and judge the men who are protecting us, based solely on what the news is feeding us about the situation.

It's a tragic death to be sure. But trying these guys in the press isn't going to fix it.

"Yet, OTOH, out of ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTEEN people on the plane, they can't come up with one, uno, who heard that..."

Why would the press want one? That wouldn't be controversial. how would they sell newspapers?
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Old December 9, 2005, 07:07 PM   #70
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What I find most interseting is that most of the comments here are based on MEDIA reports. This is the same media that hate anyone with a gun. This is the SAME media that stated that the "Assault Weapons ban" passed the House in a landslide... It passed by ONE vote after it had failed and the Dems held the vote opened for another 20 minutes to arm-twist. This is the SAME media that calls a Ruger 10/22 an (gasp!) ASSAULT RIFLE... This is the SAME media that calls a brick of .22lr's and two .22 pistols an arsenal... This is the SAME media which calls Hillary Clinton a "Hawk" and a "Moderate"... :barf:

I fly a 737 (for a different airline) and I have had many dealings with the FAM's. These are very professional people. They train extensively in evaluating behavior of people behaving in a different or unusual manner. To fire a weapon is the last thing that they are looking to do. They are very good at it, but they want to resolve non-violently. Having a person state that "I have a bomb" (I have heard this from non-media types) and run off of the plane would probably resulted in an emergency evacuation if the FAM's hadn't been there. The comment and the action indicates a serious threat to all. Imagine if the guy really had a bomb and detonated it by the forward entry door... or in the crowded terminal.

Yes, I am sorry for the family, the gentelman, the passengers and THE FAM's. No one wants this sort of thing to happen... but many of the posters here talk about how they will react if threatened. You must make a split second decision as to the intent and ability of the person. What would YOU do if you were in, say a restauraunt with no way out except past someone claiming "I have a bomb, and I'm gonna blow your @@$#@%'s straight to Hell" and reaches into the bag? Draw and shoot? What if it's just his laundry? Not shoot? What if he's telling the truth? What if he draws a pistol and starts aiming at your table? Shoot? What if it's a Air-Soft and you just killed an "unarmed man"? Not shoot? One of your family is wounded or killed? It is sooo easy to sit and spend 30 minutes, or 30 days, deciding whether the shoot as legit when the FAM's (or anyone involved in a shooting situation) reacted with much less information in a very limited amount of time.

For me, I'll wait for the investigation by the PROFESSIONALS, not the media, to be complete. In the meantime I will support the FAM's and the professional job which the do every day.

Rant complete!
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Old December 10, 2005, 09:27 AM   #71
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As the son of a Bi-Polar man, I know what it is like when bi-polars go off thier meds. There is NO reasoning with them. My own Father was Baker Acted a few years ago, he was about to start a fire. The police officer wrestled him to the ground. Would you believe my Dad still won't admit to anything! It is tragic what happened, but no LEO wants to be the one who let the bad guy win. If the guy did have a bomb, those two marshalls would be getting medals from the President right now.
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Old December 10, 2005, 09:46 AM   #72
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Bet there's not many passengers on the plane that would say no he wasn't justified.
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Old December 10, 2005, 09:47 AM   #73
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Quote:
What I find most interseting is that most of the comments here are based on MEDIA reports. This is the same media that hate anyone with a gun. This is the SAME media that stated that the "Assault Weapons ban" passed the House in a landslide... It passed by ONE vote after it had failed and the Dems held the vote opened for another 20 minutes to arm-twist. This is the SAME media that calls a Ruger 10/22 an (gasp!) ASSAULT RIFLE... This is the SAME media that calls a brick of .22lr's and two .22 pistols an arsenal... This is the SAME media which calls Hillary Clinton a "Hawk" and a "Moderate"...
Amen.

Spaceman, you may be right about that one witness, but why can't they find ONE of the 113 who WAS close to the guy that heard 'bomb'? ONE? It's extraordinarily fishy to me. We'll see. I think we can all agree (as per usual) that it's pretty futile to argue until an investigation ensues. So let's not jump the gun in either direction (as I may have done).
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Old December 10, 2005, 09:59 AM   #74
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I think you people need to understand with the Homeland Security Agency (or group of agencies), when there is a threat, they shoot to kill. They don't play around and do "what if's?" during an incident. They follow their training as best they can. The air marshalls did what they were trained to do! Done deal. Expect more of this at sensitive facilities if the terrorist issue heats up here in the US.

As was said, if the air marshalls did nothing and the guy ran into the terminal and blew himself up killing many at the gate, who do you think the news people would be pointing a finger at? With most of the media, it is a no win situation for sane people. They have so much time to fill up on the 24 hr news channels that they continually do the what ifs and whys and analyze something to death without even having many facts. I will say that the initial news reports were favorable toward the air marshalls. They did their job.
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Old December 10, 2005, 11:39 AM   #75
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First Freedom,

I understand that there have to be checks and balances rather than simply accepting what the government has to say as hard facts. Those checks and balances are the freedom of speech and the right to bear arms in case all else goes to hell.

I give the Air Marshalls the benefit of doubt simply due to the fact that they are carrying out their actions in front of a whole mess of impartial witnesses. Are there dirty cops who would put a bullet in someone and then plant a weapon on them? Of course there are, but they wouldn't do it in front a bunch of witnesses. I'm also sure air marshalls hate to blow their cover. I'm not sure what the regulations are but over 100 people now know what they look like. Air Marshalls are supposed to be under cover. Simply saying that it was a case of "contempt of cop" is unfounded.

The fact that he was an American citizen means nothing. Are you so naive as to believe that there aren't sleeper cells of terrorists that are fully legal to be in the US, including some with citizenships? What about citizens who have been converted to Islamic extremists? Don't you remember that guy who threw grenades in the mess hall in Iraq? What about the Washington D.C. Sniper? How about all of the hoodlums in New Orleans that were murdering, raping, and looting? Weren't most of them Americans?

It has already been mentioned many times, but failure to act carried a tremendous amount of risk for all of the people on board. It is a tragic event but if what the air marshalls said is true, they really had no choice but to terminate the threat. As for the witnesses, I'm sure some of the passengers heard what Alpizar said. I'm sure most of them just want to forget about the whole incident rather than reliving what must hve been a terrifying experience. I'm sure most of them would have wanted the air marshalls to shoot Alpizar if there was even a remote chance he had a bomb. Unfortuately hind sight is always 20/20. The air marshalls had to make a decision based on the information they had at the time and follow the proper protocol. I'm sure there will be inquiries and no air marshall in their right mind will blow someone away in front of a mess of witnesses for "contempt of cop" as you call it.
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