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Old December 8, 2005, 03:33 PM   #26
Brasso
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A bullet hole will not de-pressurize an airplane. Several bullets holes won't do it. A door or window missing? Probably. As usual of course, reality doesn't make very good hollywood movies.
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Old December 8, 2005, 03:35 PM   #27
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Sad but True

It's unfortunate but the Fed Air Cop did what he was supposed to do as per his training. Like someone else said, what was he suppose to do? wait until the perp blew up the bag and then shot? On the other hand the person had to get screened before coming on the plane up to the point of taking his shoes off and everything. There was a good chance that he had no bomb. But U don't have time to think of all that in situations like this. That is why U have to rely on Training. Speaking of training, I hope everyone on The Firing Line goes to the Shooting Range at least once a week.
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Old December 8, 2005, 03:40 PM   #28
Don H
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Prayers and thoughts to the victim and his family.
I don't think I would describe the dead man as a "victim".
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Old December 8, 2005, 03:56 PM   #29
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If the man was truly mentally ill and not cognizant of the consequences of his actions, then his death is regretable. One can feel sorrow over it.

That is different from not thinking this was a reasonable shoot if the facts are correctly presented so far.

One does not have to think is was a glorious thing to shoot him. It was a sad necessity.
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Old December 8, 2005, 03:59 PM   #30
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"FREEZE!...Ok, now tell me about your medical history..."


Nah, doesn't sound right


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Old December 8, 2005, 04:01 PM   #31
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A bullet hole will not de-pressurize an airplane. Several bullets holes won't do it. A door or window missing? Probably. As usual of course, reality doesn't make very good hollywood movies.
+1

Now its sad that he got shot but if I was a Air Marshal I would have done the same as they did. They did what they are trained and told what to do instead of trying to discredit them someone should be giving them accomadations or something for staying claim and doing what they were trained/told to do.

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Old December 8, 2005, 04:02 PM   #32
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air marshall shooting

I wish they (the news) would shut-up about it for just 10 seconds, my god talk about over-analizing something! They should say ''nut gets shot by auth. at airport'' and let it go away for christ sake. see ya
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Old December 8, 2005, 04:16 PM   #33
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+1 for the good guys.

I agree with others who say, "What if it was a legit threat" and nothing was done? Who's ass then?

Think about it!
You do not have the right to threaten others with lethal force of a bomb.
That is the definition of a terroristic act, even muttered.

Stems off of the yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theatre.
Not cool.

The responsibility should lie on his wife and family.
His mother is claiming he wasn't right in the head, but the brother in law said he was normal!?

Need to find out there what is going on, but it was a good shoot.
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Old December 8, 2005, 04:21 PM   #34
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Re Air Marshalls

Hi
It is a sad situation that a person who is supposed to be on psychotropic meds and is not was even in this situation, i.e. flying without the meds in his system. The air marshal had NO CHOICE, I mean running and screaming that he has a bomb and refusing to show his hands. Who is willing to take a chance after 9/11? The man's wife is now a widow and that is sad. As far as the "media" questioning the marshal's decision to shoot...are we really surprised by this? The "news" we are allowed to see is a highly sanitized unilateral product clearly reflecting the bias of the "media elite". :barf:
When was the last time you saw a news story on the "big three" that showed a firearm being used in lawful self defense or the prevention of a crime? Anyway, the marshal did the right thing.
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Old December 8, 2005, 05:09 PM   #35
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guys even if a plane decompressed it would only last for a moment and would not suck everybody out of the hole. that's hollywood bs. if some guy was standing right next to a door that opened, yea likely. but all that bs about people flying around and papers and luggage is just that, bs. the aircraft would equalize very quickly.
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Old December 8, 2005, 05:27 PM   #36
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Bomb??

This all may well end up similiar to the "terrorist" shot six times in the head in London. All's well that ends well eh?
The London electrician was murdered by brit LEO and evidence was altered including the film shown on our Orwellian Box (that's a TV kiddies!)
Why oh why do so many folks claiming to be non PC follow lock step everything fed to them on the boob tube?
This morning BTW, witnesses from the plane don't recall anyone saying BOMB except for the cops in the later interviews.
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Old December 8, 2005, 05:27 PM   #37
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I don't think I would describe the dead man as a "victim".

+1 - There is no way we should call this man a victim - he was more of a perpetrator to me. If he had not been killed, say he was just wounded, he would definitely have been tried - and hopefully convicted - of multiple crimes. So, unless you are going to call the drunk wandering into your house and saying he has a gun while trying to grab your wife a victim when you shoot him dead, we should stop calling this guy a victim. It's almost as bad as calling the Iraqi terrorists insurgents, but enough already.

There are a few good things we can take from this episode:
1) The Air Marshalls are effective.
2) The government is protecting us in the air.
3) Every terrorist in the world should see this as a deterrent to any future attacks - because they can see we are serious.

Now I only hope the government does NOT apologize for the actions of the air marshalls or say they are going to review their actions and change their policies. If anything, they should say that this incident shows their plan is working and that we are sticking with it. Better yet, they should say nothing and let things remain as they are. Do I feel compassion towards the man's family - of course. But it is better to do the right thing and be wrong than to do nothing and be wrong. If they hadn't taken him out, and hundreds of people on the plane or in the airport had died, this would be a much different discussion.
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Old December 8, 2005, 05:54 PM   #38
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they did what they were trained to do. save people. they did the right thing.I'm glad I'm not writing about 200 dead Americans. even if he did not have a bomb. who new. I do feel bad for them taking a life is not mentally easy.
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Old December 8, 2005, 06:11 PM   #39
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From what little I know about Bi-polar, this sounds more like Depression caused suicide by Air Marshall. I thought they used to be Sky Marshalls?

Geoff
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Old December 8, 2005, 06:17 PM   #40
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the more i think about it i am flat out proud of the marshalls. they have proven they can do the job.

sorry about the guy off of his meds though. i guess his wife wishes she could turn back the clock and gets his meds prior to the flight.
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Old December 8, 2005, 06:53 PM   #41
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There are a few good things we can take from this episode:
1) The Air Marshalls are effective.
2) The government is protecting us in the air.
3) Every terrorist in the world should see this as a deterrent to any future attacks - because they can see we are serious.
On the contrary. This episode only proves that Air Marshalls can reliably take out a obvious potential threat.

Every terrorist in the world can take from this one lesson, that they could probably already figure out on thier own: Don't act like a loon on a plane.
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Old December 8, 2005, 07:02 PM   #42
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Some feel that the Darwin Award winner did not deserve to die. Well, deserve or not, he did. Actions always have consequences. Bi Polar indeed. I have always though that was just another manufactured 'mental illness'.
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Old December 8, 2005, 08:24 PM   #43
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Putting aside this particular episode,
let's be wary of saying we're so very proud of the air marshalls.

This is a program that, from what I've read, has been beset by problems, with experienced tactical people leaving it in disgust because of lowered standards and recruitment issues.

I always got the impression that people who know are disgusted with it because they've allowed people to graduate from the program even despite not meeting standards that should be met, and that the program itself was shambling along on wobbly legs.

And still no word about how many marshalls there actually are; the best info we get still seems to indicate that they are present on SINGLE-DIGIT PERCENTAGES of flights, and if I recally correctly, they are simply not placed on domestic-to-domestic flights, or something like that.


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Old December 8, 2005, 08:54 PM   #44
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If all happened as reported, they did exactly as we employ them to. News @$$es who don't know what they are talking about should keep their mouths shut.

Buy them each a medal and a bottle, a week off with pay and leave them be.

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Old December 8, 2005, 09:00 PM   #45
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Bi Polar indeed. I have always though that was just another manufactured 'mental illness'.
Then you've never truly known anyone with a mental illness.

There's nothing "manufactured" about it.
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Old December 8, 2005, 09:08 PM   #46
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What exactly are the "News @$$es" saying about this? All I've heard from the news is the developing story. Very little speculation and no editorializing.
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Old December 8, 2005, 09:14 PM   #47
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let's be wary of saying we're so very proud of the air marshalls
what garbage. they did exactly what they were supposed to do. if not now, when should we be proud?
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Old December 8, 2005, 09:34 PM   #48
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Bi-Polar

The problem with bi-polar patients is they think they don't need their meds anymore. They stop taking them and they go UP!
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Old December 8, 2005, 09:43 PM   #49
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Ultima-Ratio,

Just curious, what would you have done?

Given what information that we have, I think that the Air Marshalls did correct.

If you say, "Well, his wife was yelling that he was bipolar". What if the Air Marshall hadn't fired, and it was a terrorist plot, the women being the distracter and the "terrorist" was able to detonate?

Not to be mean or rude but I figure that you and others would be the first to demonize the Air Marshalls, but then again, the same people are demonizing them now. Double standards? A secret wish that another terrorist plot goes through and more Americans die?

I don't know, I won't spectulate, and I won't go out and spread it as the truth, it's just an opinion.

As for bi-polar being "manufactured" or any other mental illness, I say that it's not, there are people that have mental problems and most, 99% I would guess, stay on their meds and are as "normal" as yourself and most of the members here. The brain is still one of the things that doctors and scientist still really don't have a clue about. If they did then everyone would/could be "cured" (but most likely would just become a mass zombie civilization IMHO).

As for the use of terms, victim, etc.., I would venture to say that everyone involved is a victim in some way. This was something that could have been avoided, by the husband first by taking his meds, the wife second who knew that he hadn't (and either called his doctor or put her foot down).

The Air/Sky Marshal that had to take the shot that killed this person will have to live with this fact, but from what I've read and from what I sat here in my living room and watched live on September 11, 2001, it was something that couldn't be second guessed.

Wayne
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Old December 8, 2005, 09:50 PM   #50
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what garbage. they did exactly what they were supposed to do. if not now, when should we be proud?
When they kill someone who is actually a danger? I dunno, that's just me...

There seems no doubt they did what they're supposed to do. Even so, this was clearly a unintentional consequence. I'm sure the Marshall himself would probably sleep a bit easier if the guy really did have a bomb on his person, knowing for certain that he did not only what he was trained to do, but what was right.
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