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Old December 7, 2005, 11:02 AM   #26
Smokin_Gun
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Kid, a scale merely will give you a more accurate amount in weight . Concistancy means the same throw of a load each time you pour it into your barrel. That mean volume, I doubt if you carry a a scale and trickler with you in the field to load a BP c&b revolver...that is my point. A 30gr spout on a flask for me, I know throws 27/28gr of BP, if thats not accurate enough for a non-cartidge gun i don't know what is. Conistancy can be a horn tip or a hollowed piece of wood. I have found that most people who think a powder scale is needed are mostly modern cartridge gun shooters with out the foundation of how it used to be done traditionally and is still done today. My friend George is saying volume measuring is not right, and I say it is and a scale is not needed. But one can be used is one wants to complicate a simple task such as loading a BP Gun. It's really not Rocket Science. What ever shoots best and gets most consistant tight groups is what is correct...doesn't matter what it weighs. Try weighing FFFg and check it's volume the weigh FFg and check it's volume...they will not be the same.

Last edited by Smokin_Gun; December 7, 2005 at 08:08 PM.
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Old December 7, 2005, 11:18 AM   #27
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Smoken Gun, I have been at this for many, many years and it seems that you didn't read what I wrote or you would see that I agree with you and George and it's just what I have been saying all along.
I don't know how to say it any simpler so I'll just let it drope. Sorry for the confusion folks.
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Old December 7, 2005, 12:14 PM   #28
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Mike,
You’re right, I’m glad I readjusted my measure to re-check the 40gr load. I usually leave the measure set at 30gr for my target shooting and it has a pretty stiff “click” to it when you re-adjust it to another setting, so I must have gotten two clicks for the price of one on that first try and ended up measuring 45gr instead.
So I have probably fired 6 shots with 45gr of fffg goex, and no problems from the gun at all, actually it grouped pretty well and had a pretty good kick to it ( but not uncontrollable) and a nice big blast! (Folks, don’t try this with substitute powders since they have higher pressures than real bp). I’ll most likely keep my max powder charge to 40gr from now on though.
Here’s what I learned, double check my measure before I load big charges and I personally have no business reloading anything that uses smokeless powder. Black powder has plenty of idiot tolerance but smokeless doesn’t and a little mistake like mine could kill someone.
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Old December 7, 2005, 12:24 PM   #29
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Low Key, Good lesson learned and good info and advice One thing about these C&B revolvers.... They sure is fun!!!!
The other night I stripped mine down and cleaned it spotless and checked every part under a glass and got rid of any tiny burs and placed a tiny bit of grease on each part and put back togeather. That's going just a little over board but that's alright...I may be crazy but it keeps me from going insane
Got to go hang some Christmas lights so Santa can find my house out here in the boonies, Later, Mike
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Old December 7, 2005, 01:40 PM   #30
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Hell Mike,st.nick Has To Catch A Train To Get To My House!lol.you Know All Of This Powder Measuring Info Is Cool And Interesting But Man,it Is Just A Little Much Dont Ya Think?take Your Measurer,what Ever It May Be,load Up The Chambers W/a Safe Charge And Have Fun.thats Why I Love Bp So Much Is Because Its Not As Intense As Modern Reloading,which I Do Also.bp Is Just Plain Fun And It Doesnt Have To Be That Deep.as Far As Tinkering With The Workings Of These Guns ,now Thats One Thing,because Its Fun But To Get So Wrapped Up With The Loadings Is Just Too Much For Me.i Shoot Between 25-40 Gr Of 777 Or Goex,yes Mike I Do Have Some From The Older Days,lol.now Im Not Calling Anyone Out Here Im Just Saying We All Are Here To Have Fun And Learn But Going Over Bp101 Or Bp102 Is Just Too Much For Me Cause Then It Becomes Too Intense.so,lets Just Go To The Range And Shoot The Hell Out Of These 58's,60's,51's,49's,or What Ever Your Pleasure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old December 7, 2005, 02:06 PM   #31
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Kevin, YOU have GOEX!!!???? I don't believe it! Maybe there's hope for you after all. I agree and that was my point to begin with. Once you find what works for you , go for it . I haven't shot 25g of anything in many years,lol.
It don't make enough smoke or sound right. Now when I get my .36 I guess I will have to get used to that.
Got the lights up around the spouting. Sure glad I live in a ranch style house. Now Santa and UPS can find me!
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Old December 7, 2005, 02:28 PM   #32
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Yep,i've Got Some.its Ffg.i Used It In My Cva Frontier Under A Greatplains 385 Gr .50 Cal Lead Conical.what A Deer Killer That Is! It Was Good To 100 Ydrs Too.that Gun Started Givin Me Issues Some Yrs Ago And So I Put Up.it Wont Go Off Sometimes.i Even Went To Musket Caps And Still Would'nt Go Off.sometimes I'd Have To Shoot 10-20 Caps To Get It To Go Off.i'd Clean It Really Well Even Thru The Flash Hole.im Not Sure What Happened,ant Ideas?its A Great Little Gun,hell I'd Still Shoot It If I Could Count On It.bought Me A 12ga Double Barrel Coach Gun Last Night.had To Have One.it Shoots Like A Dream And Hold One Hell Of A Pattern.it Also Has 4 Screw In Chokes.i Have The Cyl And Imp Cyl In Now.now I Just Need A .45 Colt Lever And I'll Be Set.lol.im Still Getting My 1849 Though Unless Something Comes Up.it Made By Palmetto/italy.im Not Sure About The Quality But For 129.00 How Can You Go Wrong For Just A Shooter.i Dont Care If It Has Tool Marks Or Not,im Not Entering It A Show I Want To Shoot It.lol.take Care Mike.
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Old December 7, 2005, 02:56 PM   #33
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RK This is what threw me and was the reason for my reply.

"No measurer will ever be as consistent as a set of scales and a trickle charger and here is why..... If you use a spout from a flask you place your finger over the end of the spout and turn it upside down and open the latch to let the powder fill the spout and your finger keeps the powder from falling out . The problem is that the spout may hold 40g when in a upright possition but when you place your finger over the spout the skin or tissue of your finger is pushed into the spout taking up just a little room in the end of the spout. When you turn the flask up straight and take off your finger you will see that the spout is not all the way full so you may have 38g instead of the 40g you wanted."

What I'm saying is what ever the measurer holds will be consistant to how ever you have it adjusted. 38gr would be 38gr each time , thats consistiancy right...anyway that's how I've been doing it for over 20 years...
Sorry if i misunderstood you RK.

SG

Last edited by Smokin_Gun; December 7, 2005 at 08:10 PM.
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Old December 7, 2005, 05:32 PM   #34
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Kevin,That's kind of strange that even after you replaced the caps it's still not going off. Without seeing I have no idea what would cause that.
Have you tried the hotter Remington caps that are out now? Don't know why it would just stop going off because fire on powder is fire on powder unless somthing is blocked or the flame is being kept a way by some built up crud or or something. Let me know what you find out.
That shotgun sounds like a good turkey gun! Mike
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:22 AM   #35
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mike,
man,i have tried all kinds of caps even the hot ones but im not sure about the new rem's. i'll have to give them a try and see what happens.i just dont get it!when i clean the dern thing it sends a nice stream of hot water right out the flash hole so i know its clear but it just hangs up sometimes and when it does it wont hardly go off.i've taken many deer with this gun though and it was my 1st bp gun so it aint going anywhere.lol.
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:49 AM   #36
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This is my last post on the subject, here or there.

I did NOT say weigh ALL your charges, at least for one calibre. I said weigh what your MEASURE throws, and adjust the measure to suit. If it says 30 and it weighs 40, make a note and adjust the setting of the measure to THROW 30 grs. Ain't hard to do, unless you gotta wear glasses, like I do, set the damned thing to the actual weight/volume, and scratch a line. This is your actual throw at that weight, as VOLUME.

From here on in, go strictly by the VOLUME throw of the now calibrated MEASURE. That wil be within a gr or 2 and, unless you are at a Sheutzenfest, great. This is supposed to be fun shooting, still trying to get 'em all inside a quarter at 25 yds, but fun.

I AIN"T sayin' to take your scales to the range and weigh all your charges unless you ARE at a Sheutzenfest, and really serious about your shootin' and you wouldn't be shooting at 25 yards anyhow, would you? Well, mebbe you would, I forget what range they shoot at. But still.....

If you are off a skosh at 35 gr, mebbe just push up or down the inner thing a hair, you'll be close enough. If you are off 7 gr in 20, like with mine, you are way out in left field. That is 35%. Again, if I believed the MEASURE at 20 gr, and loaded 20 gr 777 in my 36, by VOLUME, per my MEASURE, without reducing 15%, I would be loading 27 gr by VOLUME. That is supposed to be enough to break your 36 brass framed gun. Mebbe your hands, too.

Can you see where I am coming from?

Cheers,

George
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:50 AM   #37
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MPP do you use a lubricant such as bore butter on your patches, or mooses milk a liquid? I have had that happen to me. Either a lube or fouling can get hung up before the breechplug to the ramp/channel from the barrel to the touch hole. Allowing water to go through but not enough spark to hit the charge. Just a hunch on my part. But thought it worth mentioning.

SG
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Old December 8, 2005, 07:54 AM   #38
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Measuring

Smokin, George, You all sound just like you do at home.
Watcher
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Old December 8, 2005, 08:16 AM   #39
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MPP1423,
Have you taken the drum off and maybe the nipple off the drum, I'm wondering is there might be a metal shaving up inside the drum. I checked the cylinder on my new '58 and sure enough there was a metal shaving in the nipple recess.
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Old December 8, 2005, 11:11 AM   #40
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dragoon,
i have check the best i could but it seems to be clear,the best i can tell.i think ill try the new caps mike told me about by rem and see if they work.i love this gun and it has history with me too.i've killed many deer with this baby.lol.
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Old December 8, 2005, 11:56 AM   #41
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Kevin, you probably have already done this but I used to have some similar problems. Not as bad as yours I don't think so maybe this isn't it at all. Anyway, I was using wd-40 down my barrel after I cleaned it to stop rust. I would spray enough in there to run a stream out the nipple. When I would use the rifle, I would run several dry patches down the bore and snap a few caps on the nipple before I loaded up. If I shot it pretty soon It mostly worked but it seemed the longer it was loaded, the more likely it was to misfire or hang fire. Once I got it to shoot a couple of times, the problem would be over with for that session. This was in my .32 squirrel rifle which would get fired several times, generally, every time it was out. If it had been used for deer, you know, load it up and wait..and wait.. and then do it some more, I imagine I would have had a bigger problem with it.

What I decided was that I was having the wd-40 stay down on the face of the breechplug or somewhere and not being removed by the method I was using before I loaded. I don't think it takes much of that stuff to kill the powder. I stopped using any petroleum based lubricant and my problem stopped. After I clean now, I heat the barrel and lubricate it with the same stuff I use for patch lube. A couple of days later I run a patch or two to check for rust and re-apply if there is any. I keep checking every other day or so until the patches stay white. I grease the nipple threads with it, too. If there's some pitting in your chamber or gouges on the face of the breechplug there may be enough oil staying in there to cause your problem.

Steve
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Old December 8, 2005, 12:06 PM   #42
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LoL Lee, your right we do don't we... well I guess if you lead a horse to water too many times you could drown um...but it ain't workin here...HeHe! Just kiddin' George ... I do believe you are S.C.U.B.A. Qualified...

SG
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Old December 8, 2005, 01:06 PM   #43
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thanks steve,
i didnt use wd but when i'd put it up i'd put rem oil on a patch and swab the barrel but after these problems started i stopped that and started using bore butter on a patch.maybe i put too much bore butter on the patch?im just not sure?if the flash hole seems to be clear then it should go off but i see what you say about the oil or lube hanging out it those areas.i'll try it all again with less lube and see how that goes.i went to musket caps but i think im going back to # 11 with the rem caps like mike said and give that a try.i've had this gun too long not to have it working right.me and that gun have some history.lol.
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:22 PM   #44
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Well, I figured it was a long shot. I think bore butter is more or less composed of the same stuff I make and I don't think it would be responsible for your problem. It would be enough to make you cuss if you knew how, huh?

Steve
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:54 PM   #45
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Steve,
Man I Dont Have A Clue!hell,i Dont See What Else It Could Be.i'll Keep Playing With It Though.thanks
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Old December 8, 2005, 03:18 PM   #46
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I don't know what this rifle is. Is it flint or percussion? If it is percussion clean it the way you usually dor then back out the drum and check for goo. If it is flint and there is a screw slot in the touch hole...back that out and check for goo. You could go so far as to pull the breechplug and check out the innards down there.
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Old December 8, 2005, 03:37 PM   #47
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Thanks Dragoon,
I May Just Have To Do That.its A Percussion.its A Cva Frontier Carbine.great Shooter When It Works.lol.its Older Than Dirt But I Refinished The Wood And Steel Wooled The Barrel When I Got It About 15-18 Yrs Ago.i Bought It At A Pawn Shop For 75.00 Thought That Was A Deal Even Then.lol
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Old December 8, 2005, 03:46 PM   #48
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I know it's a hassle to pull the breechplug, but sometoimes that is the only way ti really see in that end. A hint before you pull the plug. Take a cold chisel and mark on the underside of the plugand the bbl near the center of the flat if there is room. This will help you get it back into the same place it was. Unscrew the plug check things out screw in the plug and line up the marks and you're done.
I just thought of someting else. there may be a screw thread or two beyond tight which can catch goo also. If it were mine I'd take the drum off first shine a bore light in there and look around...then take the plug out.

Hope this helps.
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Old December 8, 2005, 04:03 PM   #49
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one of these cold winter days i'll do that.sounds like a good idea if i dont mess it up.lol.thanks again.
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Old December 8, 2005, 05:03 PM   #50
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Kevin, If that breech plug has never been out it can be a real bear!! That's why I never suggested it. If you have a safe place, buy yourself a couple gallons of diesel fuel or Karosen and let it soak in that for about a week.
That will help a little in most cases. Make sure you have a good vice mounted to a super sturdy bench or table and a the last time I took one out i had to use a pipe wrench with no teeth. They are used for drain plugs. I'm talking about a 2' long handle on that wrench.You may need to heat it real right at the joint .
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