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Old December 5, 2005, 01:59 PM   #1
Remington kid
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How to load. 40g fffg in a .44 Remington

There is a rumor going around that you "can't load 40g of fffg" in your Remington .44. Well, its not true and in fact you can do it useing a 1/8" wad over the powder and still have room left for a gob of grease over the ball if wanted.I have been doing this for a while and use this load when hunting Deer and it will knock a Deer on it's butt. It also has had no ill effects to my Remingtons either for the gun or the accuracy.Here is my loading method with Goex powder and a home made dry wool wad.

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Old December 5, 2005, 02:29 PM   #2
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You got me to thinking now, uh-oh, that usually costs me money.
Anyway, I tried to load 40 grains of fffg goex a couple of weeks back and couldn't get the ball seated below the mouth in a couple of chambers. The way I pour my powder may have something to do with that. I use a brass pistol measure and a funnel to pour into the measure slowly through the funnel. Could that be letting the powder settle too tightly in the measure so that I actually may be measuring more than 40 grains?
The part that costs me money is that I'm thinking of getting a scale after Christmas to weigh my big charges that I leave loaded for a couple of weeks at a time.
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Old December 5, 2005, 02:52 PM   #3
mec
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This is a good post! I suspect that grease on top of the wad is the key to getting the ball fully seated.

I've found full charges with a number of revolvers either hard or impossible unless the chambers are clean and/or the ball is at least slightly greased.
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Old December 5, 2005, 03:34 PM   #4
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Low Key, 40 g. should be .40g no matter what measurer your useing, atleast that's my way of thinking. When I place the powder in the cylinder chamber it looks like it has enough room for the ball and that's all. Then I place the wad over the powder and shove it down on the powder with a doll rod so that it's tight and nice an even. Nowit looks like I can only get a half a ball on top of that but you can load a ball over the wad with ease. You need to apply presure with the ram and seat it untel it will not go any more. That should leave you some space on top of the ball as you see in the picture.
When you place the powder in your cylinder just lightly tap the side of the chamber to settle the powder a little if you want. There is no reason for 40g to fit in one chamber but not in another . I have two cylinders for each of my .44 Remingtons and they all hold the same amount of powder.
If I were to leave out the wad I could get 45g in the Remington but I see no need to go that high. It may be that your not compressing the ball down as hard as you should. The rams can take much more preasure than you think.Just give it a try and see how it goes. Make sure you are measuring out 40 g before doing anything.
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Old December 5, 2005, 03:37 PM   #5
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Mec, The grease helps I have no doubt but I just started useing the grease over the ball a short time ago to see if it would give me a better lube or cleaner barrel and it sure does. I don't like lubed wads because they contaminate the powder for me so I tried the lube over the dry wad and it works great!
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Old December 5, 2005, 03:41 PM   #6
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It one of the pictures above it states that I'm loading 40g of ffg and that's wrong. I use 40g of Goex fffg. Sorry for the mistake or if I confused anyone
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Old December 5, 2005, 10:34 PM   #7
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Mike Is Right About The 40gr.i Load Mine W/4o Gr Of Ffg 777 And No Problems.
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Old December 5, 2005, 10:42 PM   #8
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I can get 40 Grn. 2 FG of Elephant BP under the ball in my '58's. I have not tried the lube under the ball or...the wad. I do know you can really haul down on the rammer to seat the balls. First time I loaded one I neglected to get the ball far enough down to pass the forcing cone...then wondered why the heck I couldn't
get the cylinder to rotate to the next chamber.....until I looked on the left side of the pistol and saw the problemo.
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Old December 5, 2005, 11:29 PM   #9
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I might get some grief for this, but when we say 40 gr by VOLUME, we are saying 40 gr by VOLUME of REAL BLACK POWDER.

Numerous writers and authorities have taken REAL BP, GOEX, today, and weighed 100 gr and all 4 grades are within 2 grains, even 4F.

IF you have a scale, set it to your charge, fill it, and weigh it, if you don't have one, see if one of your smokeless shooting friends has one, and weigh it at his bench. Set your measure for a higher charge and pour it in, and raise the thimble till it is flush. Check to see what it reads.

I bought a Traditions measure, filled a 38 case, supposed to be 24 gr BP, weighed it, it was 24.3 gr, filled the measure set at 20 gr, and it was over 1/16 low.

Now, at 5/8 inch deep, that measure would be throwing charges of at least 30 grs when set to 20 grs. 50 % high. Difference would be lower at higher charge setting because the thimble in the center of it is smaller in diameter than the brass tube enclosing it.

BP weighs 100 grs per 100 grs volume, or as near as dammit. You WEIGH BP to get BP equivalent by VOLUME. The other powders you go strictly by VOLUME equivalent, unless you know the specific gravity of them.

Them of you who cannot get a ball to seat on a given VOLUME charge may be way overloading your pistol.

Can't anybody believe that just because they scribe some marks on a thimble, or mold them in to it, that they might just not be accurate?

Weigh your BP, or if you use strictly subs, go to the site, find out what the equivalent weight is, and set your measure to that.

BP weighs 100 grains per 100 grains VOLUME, the upper limit is 2 grains over, and that could be a leveling error, no matter what the fineness of the powder. Too many "experts" have said that for you guys to disagree.

Cheers,

George

RK, if you were loading 2F insted of 3F, samey same, would still be the same rammed pic. The volume is the same.
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Old December 6, 2005, 12:05 AM   #10
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Gmatov,
I Understand That Bp Is Weighed In Volume,myself And Mike Was Talking About That Sometime Back.i Do Use The Ffg Which Is In 777.i Use A Wad Ontop Of The Powder And Then Either A .451 Ball Or My Own Cast Conicals.im Not Over Loading My Gun Or If I Have I Have Been Doing So For About 12 Yrs Now!i Like This Charge For Hunting And If I Was Just Plinking Around I'd Use The 30 Gr Charge W/.451 Ball And A Wad.i Like The 777 Myself.i Have Used Goex And Other Subs But 777 Is My Pick.to Each His Own.
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Old December 6, 2005, 01:21 AM   #11
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I check my measures to see how close they come to the stated values. Like the one I've been usuing lately when set on "40" actually does hold forty grains of swiss fffg. When you load a substitute powder from the same forty grain measure setting, the volume is the same as with black powder- it takes up the same amount of space but the weight is considerably lighter.

So, 40 grains of black powder and 40 grains by volume of black powder are the same thing. When I write up the volumetric equivalent of a black powder load using pyrodex, I use the expression 40grains/Volume or 40 gr/vol just to show that while the charge takes up the same amount of space as black powder, it does not actually weigh the same.

It is likely that the slight variations that might take place from one brand of black powder to another or from one lot to the next of the same black powder or even a bit of inconsistency in pouring the powder would have very little effect on the load.
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Old December 6, 2005, 02:32 AM   #12
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Right.

BP is 75-25-10, charcoal, K, S. Any make will weigh the same, no matter the granulation.

100 grs per 100 gr by VOLUME, as that is what the VOLUME is measured against, BP.

What I am trying to tell others is that if they are trying to load 40 gr and they can't, and you guys are saying, Hey, I got no problem, just mebbe they are using a bad measure, trying to load 50 grs. or more.

Some of you, with bad measures, would be better off with a set of Lee dippers. They are true as to CC, but you have to go to the conversion tables to see what Xcc of BP is

Mine is a bad measure. Way off. I am better off with an empty cartidge case than with this piece of crap. Weigh a 357 throw, tomorrow, see if it hits 30 grs or so.

Cheers,

George
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Old December 6, 2005, 05:59 AM   #13
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George, You got a lot more specific than me but basically that was what I was wondering about my charges. Maybe the powder measure I use is measuring more that what it should be. I found a scale in Cabelas to get after Christmas, and I'll start using that for my big charges (35-40gr) and I'll also check my powder measure and see how close it is actually measuring to what it reads. I'll do my checks with real bp.
There is some great info in this thread! Thanks all!
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Old December 6, 2005, 08:28 AM   #14
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All good info above ! That's what I like about this site. We have people on here with years of knowledge and they are willing to share it with anyone who wants to listen.
First off , my reason for stateing that I was useing 3 f and not 2 f was not because I thought there would be a volume difference but because 3 f of Goex gives me the best hunting accuracy and I thought it may help others if they wanted to try it in there Remington.
Weight can be different than volume and if anyone has ever reloaded you will know that's true, that's why most serious reloaders have trickle chargers. Every grain can make a difference and you can be several grains off with a dipper or measurer of any kind. Would a couple of granuals make a difference to most of us ? No way! If it does then you are a better shot than any man alive. In my reloading days my 22-250 and 243 Groundhog dispatchers were loaded as perfect as I could make them. I even weighed each bullet before loading but we were taking 300-400 yard shots at Groundhogs. The reason for loading with the most accurate and consistent loads we can is because we want all the help we can get to improve our accuracy and the get consistent FPS from our loads.
I don't have a set of scales anymore so I can't tell you if Im over , under or right on 40g of fff but I can tell you that the loads are consistent.
My loader is the kind that you dump in your powder a little higher than the top and then you slide the top (spout) over the top and it levels off the powder. Works great for me! A good set of digital scales may surprise several of us but Im not ready to get that serious again.
As my Pappy always said ....Son , ifin it aint broke leave it alone!
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Old December 6, 2005, 10:31 PM   #15
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Mike,

I didn't think you were trying to say it held 40 grs of 3f, mebbe not 40 of 2f, just that you shoot 3f accurately, mebbe 2fwon't shoot as straight.

My measure is not worth a damn. I'd like to find a flask with interchangeable spouts up to 40 grs., and a better measure, kinda like the one you show up above, with the sweeping funnel. Till then, gotta go to the next size cartridge case, charge weigh and mark.

What kind of capper is that in the pic? My own brasser with the spring fingers holds 27 caps, fingers are a little in the way, need filed for the Colt, won't even start in the tapered nutches in the Rem's nipple holes, gotta thumb them on and my fingers must be not as nimble as they once were. Angled nipples help, but would like to get one that fits the Rem.

Since reading the guy who blew a slot in his thumb seating them, then the guy from The Hobby Gunsmith who got in a big fight with the Territorial Governors of SASS or somebody when they outlawed hammer seating, and seeing his side of the argument, I think it makes sense to hold the muzzle downrange and hammer seat. If it DO go off, hey, it's in the direction it was supposed to go, anyhow, not in your neighbor's direction.

Cheers,

George
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Old December 6, 2005, 11:22 PM   #16
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George,
I bought (a CVA I think) inline capper it didn't fit either.
I took my inline capper apart and reworked the brass dispensing end with a file to the shape of the notches in the cylinder at the nipples. Then I pinched in the spring to approximate the ends. it works pretty well now.
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Old December 7, 2005, 02:23 AM   #17
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I see how it is...

Damn George, why couldn't you agree with us like you did here? We told you just like Rem Kid said. Measure by volume, weight dont' matter, consistancey and a load that works is all you need. Never mind George I'll leave it alone. At least I know that you know now, and you know I know.......HeHe!
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Old December 7, 2005, 03:18 AM   #18
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Ah, shoot, Smoke, you tracked me down.

I'm sayin' the same thing here. Load your measure to 40 gr BP, dump it in the scale, see if it is 40 gr. If it says 50 gr, you got a problem with your meaure, and you're saying, Man, 40 gr really lets out a bellow and a kick.

If it's 30 gr, you got a problem with your measure, and you say, Man, 40 gr is the pleasantest load in the 58 Rem, no kick, shoots to POA-POI.

All BP is measured by weight, then the weight converted to a volume for field reloading. We're shooting BP, here, another grain or 10 isn't gonna blow up a gun. A grain or 2 WILL blow up a centerfire cartridge gun. Go to the 44 Mag loads with Red Dot. I used to shoot a lot of shotgun, have a coffecan full left, been loading 44 Mag with it. Like 9.6 gr. 10 grs, possible catastrophy. It ain't the same stuff.

After you weigh out that 40 gr BP and set your VOLUME measure to hold just that much, then go ahead and fill it with Pyrodex, a VOLUME equivalent, it's OK, won't break your gun nor your head nor hands.

I'm gettin' tired of trying to explain this. It seems so reasonable and apparent.

A cubic inch weighs this much of this, and a cubic inch of something with the same destructive capacity will do the same, but a cubic inch of something more volatile has to be adjusted downward.

I give up,

Cheers,

George
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Old December 7, 2005, 03:36 AM   #19
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Mike,

Like you said above, weight can be different from volume. That ain't so. There ain't no scale that measures volume. It measures weight, then the weight is converted to a volume.

Smoke got me started on this, again. A teaspoon as used in cooking is a given volume. A tablespoon, another. Would you charge your Rem with a teaspoon of powder, without knowing how much it weighed, in BP terms?

You gots to weigh your thrown charge to see what it is. A given volume of BP weighs so much, and if your charge is over or under that, as measured, then you are at a disadvantage. An 1860 shooter weighs 30 gr and makes a measure drop that, and you shoot your 40 gr, and he shoots thru a 6 inch log, and you can't, what is the problem? Damn, them 60s shoot hard, why don't they fall apart? I gots a topstrap..

A balance scale is not that expensive, at least I don't think it is. Mine's 40 years old, a Lyman Ohaus. Still works perfectly. That's one thing about strictly mechanical balances. They always work the same way.

Gone to bed now, had more than enough of this for one night.

Cheers,

George
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Old December 7, 2005, 04:56 AM   #20
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Your a good friend a mine George, but you still ain't gettin it...a volumertic measure is used so you don't have to weigh it. You can use a hollowed out Antler Horn Tip if you want. The load that works is poured by volume not a weighing scale, why can't you follow that. Whatever shoots best in your Rev weight don't mean ****. In the 17th, 18th, & 19th centuries they used a hangin Liberty type scale..measure a kegs weight filled it weighed it, the volume of it full then fill all the kegs. It was then divided into 1lb or 7000gr by volume Horns and handed out....Ok George are you getting the idea? LoL!

SG
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Old December 7, 2005, 06:08 AM   #21
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I decided to give this another try last night just to see if I came up with the same results. 40grains fffg goex loaded no problems. My powder measure is not marked with the number of grains you are loading, the lowest setting is 20 grains and you have to count clicks in five grain increments. I must have clicked one time too many the first time I tried this and was probably loading 45 grains instead of 40. It's not one of those twist and click measures, you have to pull one tube out from the main tube to adjust it and it takes a bit of pressure to do it. Sometimes I'm too cheap for my own good.
If I was loading 45 grains before, at least I know that the gun will shoot that much with no problems and I'm glad that BP allows you some tolerance for errors. That's exactly why I don't reload anything smokeless, I'm my own worst enemy sometimes...
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Old December 7, 2005, 09:08 AM   #22
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I think you guys are saying the same thing, George and Smoke. If I want a 30 grain charge, I weigh 30 grains on my scale and then make a measure which only holds that much. Then I load by the volume held in that measure from then on.
If I had no scale I would start with a pre-sized flask spout or a measure with incremental marks and load by the volume they say is 30 grains. That volume may or may not be actually 30 grains in weight depending on what granulation of powder I'm using but since black powder and it's substitutes are interchangable by volume, it doesn't matter what the weight really is.

In the old days, a man would load with enough powder to cover the ball held in his cupped hand. Then he'd make a measure to hold that much powder to speed up the loading process. I believe that's where we got the whole "dram" thing. Volume was broken down into increments so there was a standard that could be expressed. There was no need to weigh how much a dram was because you had measured it by volume. We don't use drams today in our discussions, we use weight, necessitated by the very different properties of different modern smokeless powders. I can't tell a friend who is loading a 30-06 to put two drams of powder in his cartridge unless I also know what kind of powder he's using and have weighed that volume of it to know two drams is a safe charge. I can tell him to load his muzzle-loader with two drams of powder because that volume has the same properties within the black powder/black powder substitute community.

Steve
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Old December 7, 2005, 09:38 AM   #23
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George, No arguement from me on what you said above and that's what I have been saying all along but maybe I need to clear up a couple of things.
Weighing powder will always give you a more consistent load for load , we all know that. The problem comes in when you have a measurer that say's you are loading 40g but you may not because it could be off a little. The best way to check that is to fill your measurer and then weigh it to see what the results are. If it weighs out to 40g then you are all set and you know that powder measure is right on for 40g and you can use that for fairly consistent loads.
No measurer will ever be as consistent as a set of scales and a trickle charger and here is why..... If you use a spout from a flask you place your finger over the end of the spout and turn it upside down and open the latch to let the powder fill the spout and your finger keeps the powder from falling out . The problem is that the spout may hold 40g when in a upright possition but when you place your finger over the spout the skin or tissue of your finger is pushed into the spout taking up just a little room in the end of the spout. When you turn the flask up straight and take off your finger you will see that the spout is not all the way full so you may have 38g instead of the 40g you wanted.
Now none of this is a problem for most people because there gun shoots great with this charge and it will be real close every time for them.
If your useing a dipper you need to level off the the top and some people shake it a little or they may just scrape it off with a finger. No way will you get the same load every time. The same thing happens with my powder measuerer , when I slide the spout over to level off the powder it still may not take off the same powder right down to the last grain . It will not be perfect every time.
If I use a set of scales and use a dipper to place powder in the scales pan I may need to ad or remove some or a few grains to get it perfect. I always usd a light amount with the dipper and then used a trickle charger to drop one grain at a time in the scales pan to reach my perfect load.
In the old days no one worried all this much about it and some just dumped the amount of powder that looked right to them in the crease of there hand and that was close enough for them and it must have worked.
As someone mentioned above many used a horn measurer and that's the way my .32 and 45 muzzle loaders are set up. The cap on my powder horns are hollwed out to hold just the right amount of powder for each load. No need to cary a measurer in the woods.
Hope this helps and I think we were on the same page anyway The way I explain things somtimes is not all that great and I'm sorry for any confusion I may be causeing here.
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Old December 7, 2005, 09:41 AM   #24
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Low Key! WOW It's a good thing you double checked that measurer
We don't need no accidents from the good folks on here. Mike
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Old December 7, 2005, 09:50 AM   #25
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George, hat's just an inline capper and I've had it so long I can't remember who made this one. I took off the little spring useing a set of the small scre drivers you use for working on glasses. Then I used a file and sand papper to round off the edge and the end so it would fit over the nipple. Works good but my fingers are big and loading can be a pain in the butt. I still load with my fingers most of the time but I seat the cap all the way down useing a 3/8" doll rod with leather over the end. Never had one blow yet and I have done it that way for years.
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