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Old August 28, 1999, 11:02 PM   #1
Teppo
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Join Date: August 27, 1999
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Guys, I need your advice:

I bought a Beretta 92 FS a month ago. It is a beautiful stainless gun, and the heavy trigger didn't bother me. However, I was horrified when I started shooting it --- the accuracy was nothing close to the P7, sig 226, 1911, ruger 22, and glocks 23/34 that I own. I knew it was a combat gun, and not great for target shooting out the box, but I can't believe we supply our troops with a gun that can't even "hit the paper" that the target is printed on at 25 yards! The sites are off by several inches and the groups are several inches as well.

As I understand it, the problem is in the allowed tolerance of the barrel lock-up area, and the play between the barrel and the end of the slide. I can grab the barrel tip and wiggle it around a few millimeters in each direction.

Customer service was condescending, and I have been told that sending the gun back to Beretta probably won't help.

Does anyone have any preference in a match grade aftermarket barrel? I don't want to alter the slide (in case I dump the gun) so the Weigand nosepiece and the Jarvis barrel are out. The choices seem to be the popular Federal Arms barrel ($75) vs. Olymic Arms barrel ($120) vs KKM ($180) vs. Beretta competition conversion kit ($250)

Which barrel do you recommend? Or should I try to return the gun to Beretta for repair?

Please share your knowledge. I know I'm not the only dismayed Beretta owner out there.


[This message has been edited by Teppo (edited August 29, 1999).]
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Old August 29, 1999, 06:22 AM   #2
George Stringer
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Teppo, before going to the expense of a new match barrel, I'd try the Weigand Nose Piece. It's like adding a bushing. I haven't used this particular item yet but I have sleeved Beretta and Tauras slides to tighten the barrel fit. There is always a big improvement in accuracy. The Weigand add on would be less expensive and I plan to try it on the next 92 that comes in for accurizing. George
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Old September 2, 1999, 03:38 PM   #3
ATTICUS
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Teppo: Is this pistol new? My FS was a tack driver straight out of the box.
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Old September 3, 1999, 09:44 PM   #4
stinx
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Teppo If I was you i would sned the gun back to the factory. I have Beretta 92 and aTaurus pt92. Both guns are accurate and have no problem staying on paper at twenty five yards.
Our Dept is in the process of swithing to Beretta 96 4o calibers. During our testing we allowed multiple officers to fire the pistols. Once the officers got used to the guns all could put their rounds in the blck at twenty five yards.
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Old September 5, 1999, 05:07 PM   #5
Teppo
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Guys,

Thanks for the replies. The gun was purchased new, and I have sent it back to the factory before committing to make any modifications on the gun.

I found a source of information on the web, http://www.greent.com/beretta/ where the largest collection of Beretta fanatics hang out. Part of the problem was that the groups centered low and to the left --- apparently a common problem to many Beretta shooters. The Beretta line is that this occurs if the trigger is not pulled back slowly directly back, more consciously that with my Glock, Sig or HK. I find this a little hard to believe, especially given the number of people who have this "low left" problem, but I will give it a try if the gun checks out at the Factory.

The other thing that I learned is that the trigger idiosyncrasy is exacerbated by the heavy trigger. This can be easily overcome by replacement by replacing the trigger spring with a lighter spring. The Cougar D spring drops the pull to 9#DA/4#SA and the Cougar F spring even below that.

There is an unbelievable amount of slop in the barrel. You can grab it by the end and shake it a millimeter in every direction. As a matter of fact, between shots, the barrel is clearly in a different position with each shot. I have been told that the barrel returns to some set position just as the gun fires. I also find this a little hard to believe, especially since bushings like the Weigand nosepiece or compensators with a wedge that drive itself between the slide and the barrel are able to improve acuracy.

If all else fails, I have heard good things about the Federal Arms Barrel (supposedly drop in), and the Olymic Arms Barrel. Jarvis, as always, is excellent, but requires work and reaming of the slide.

I will report back as the gun gets accurized. Any other Beretta tricks would be appreciated.
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Old September 6, 1999, 01:55 PM   #6
OTIS
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I had a similar problem with a new 92 stainless. Couldn't hit paper at 25 yds. I sent it back to Beretta and had it back in no time. They sent a before and after test target. Apparently they replaced the rear site. It now shoots fine. I just need some more practice.
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Old September 10, 1999, 05:02 AM   #7
Tom B
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I had Jarvis fit his barrel on a 92 without altering the slide. Costs about $200. Much improvement.
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Old October 11, 1999, 11:20 AM   #8
Teppo
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So, here is some follow-up for interested parties:

I received my gun back from Beretta after a couple of weeks. It was returned with a target, shot with 115 gr. Black Hills ammo, presumably a Ranson test. The group measured 4 1/2 inches accross, about five inches below a large black circle imprinted on the target, which I think must be the point of aim. My handheld groups continued to be much larger on the range.

This just doesn't do it for me, so I fabricate in my shop a Weigand nosepiece-like bushing and glued it to the front of my slide (I didn't want to drill into the front of the slide, since that would void the warranty and decrease the gun's resale value). That helped the group size, but still shot low before the modification blew off after twenty rounds.

In the meantime, I picked up a fairly inexpensive Federal Arms compensated barrel. Compared to the factory barrel, the REAR lock-up was much tighter, but still dropped in without modification. The hand-held groups were much tighter, and the barrel would return more or less to the same place between shots. The gun still shot low.

It is possible that there is some operator error (i.e. I am not holding the gun quite right), but I have heard others have this problem. The Beretta rear sights are apparently very difficult to push out, so I decided to just mount a $59 Tasco Propoint
3 red-dot sight to a $40 B-square scope mount.

I also replaced the spring with a Wolff 1911 20#, and applied some Brownell action lube plus on to the sear and hammer. Now the trigger feels very smooth in both SA and DA.

I tested the gun yesterday, now it shoots centered, 3-4 inch handheld groups at 25 yards --- something I can live with it. Well, the gun it now totally useless for carry, but it looks cool. The stock gun definitely has it merits in reliabilty and beauty, but I wouldn't call myself a Beretta fan.
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Old October 16, 1999, 07:57 AM   #9
Will Beararms
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Teppo: It sounds like you have the
where-with-all to procure any weapon that strikes your fancy and that's a good thing. I recently acquired a stock, out-of-the-box Beretta 92 FS with the Blue Finish. I must admit that I have hated Berettas for a long time and quite frankly, if the first name wasn't Sig and the last name wasn't Sauer, I didn't want any part of it. I got the Beretta for an of-the-wall reason: gun control. My thoughts are if Clinton were to sign an executive order tommorow banning all handguns, I would own at least one that would have an abundance of spare parts, ammo, and magazines available at all times. Anyway, I took the thing out to the range and found that I shoot it more accurately than anything I have ever used or owned. The thing that I still can't figure out is I hit the bull's eye consistently at 15 yards even when the first shot is in Double action mode!From hearing about your ordeal, I am thinking that the Maryland Plant is under such scrutiny that they won't dare let a Beretta U.S.A. product out unless it is in spec. Your Inox was made in Italy and normally that would be preferred. In any event am sorry that you have had problems but I wanted to fill you in on what happened to me. My plans are to moth ball the pistol for a rainy day.

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Old October 16, 1999, 11:11 AM   #10
Rob B
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I have the same design in the stainless taurus format. For accurate shooting a barrel bushing is a must. Since the barrel is free to wobble in the reloading phase, it may not return exactly to center every time.
The trigger spring was a good move, they take the slop out.
I shoot thousands of rounds a year out of pistols, that's just my thing. Mine will group inside of 5" with 15 at 50 yards(off hand). It is by no means a racegun, or any other type of accurized gun. It is basically stock with the exception of slide springs for changing loads, the trigger spring, the barrel bushing and a new barrel every 4000-5000 rounds.
Honestly with all the name hoopla out there the most accurate semi 9mm I have owned has to be a Browning Hi-power in the Inglis configuration, bone stock it will group 4.25" at 100 yards resting the clip on the bench(13 shots). The next best is the Walther P99 giving me a 5" 100 yard group(10 shots). I have Sigs, custom 1911s, Smiths and retired service pistols. I'm no expert, but I do shoot quite a bit and whip the local policemen in competitions.
I have heard conflicting statements by many of the Berreta's acurassy. This leads me to beleive at one time or another they have had bad quality control. Some very respectable pistol shooters say they are terrible, others say they are great. My conclusion is to save $200 and get the Taurus design with a lifetime waranty. Taurus has stepped up their QC and it's hard these days to get a bad shooter. I have a lot of their smith revolver copies, a lot of times they will put a Smith to shame on the range.
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Old October 17, 1999, 08:26 AM   #11
Nakano
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Teppo: if you can group 3- 4 " at 25 as you' ve stated and your ammo is reliable and providing you can do your part, the 92 is more than capable a carry gun. Believe it.

L8r,
Nakano

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[This message has been edited by Nakano (edited October 17, 1999).]
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Old September 30, 2005, 09:25 PM   #12
parkers
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I bought a Beretta Brigadier Elite II 92G 3 years ago. It does indeed shoot 9 inches low and to the left at 25 yards. I have gone to an adjustable rear sight to lift up the point impact.

In playing with the pistol lately, I found that shimming the lower half the of the barell hole on the front of the slide with metal furnace tape did two things:
1) did not last very long, as I suspected.
2) while it lasted, it partially lifted up the point of impact and also turned the pistol into a tack driver.

I built a better shim using a chunk of aluminum, it runs the length of the barrel hole, with ends partially hinged over and covers slightly less than half the diameter of the hole. I've glued it in place with place with automotive goop. It looks like it might stay, I'll find out. The play is gone out of the end of the barrel and I suspect will now drive tacks.

I don't expect my chunck of aluminum to last, however you now can get a barrel bushing from Brownells for the Beretta, and I believe the new Barretta's are shipping with barrel bushings in place.

Without a fix there is a lot of play in the end of the barrel with the slide off the frame and spring in place. With the slide on the frame, the barrel itself fits into a separate slide on the frame, and the resulting barrel play is a little less. It is that last bit of barrel play with the pistol fully assembled that I think you need to get rid of.

When I get to it I am going to order another adjustable rear sight. The one I have is a low profile LPA sight which does not give quite enough lift. There is another LPA(PSI) sight on the Brownells site I would like to try, is stock number 625-102-192 or link: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...EAR+SIGHT+SETS

I think the barrel bushing will do the trick as well, however I suspect that the gun will become a little finicky as it was designed for combat, and as such can be dropped in sand and still work. Thus if I guy can just shim the bottom of the front slide hole, I think that would be best.

The journey is the adventure.

Have fun,

Parker
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Old October 4, 2005, 05:51 AM   #13
Radagast
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The fixed rear sight suplied with the Beretta EII has an incorrect height, Novaks make replacement sights to fix the problem.

There have been a few discussions of this over at www.berettaforum.net
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Old October 13, 2005, 10:06 PM   #14
parkers
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Thanks for the reply, I checked the Beretta Forum and found some valuable info.

Thanks again,

Parker
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