The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 12, 2005, 03:48 PM   #26
Peter M. Eick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 3, 1999
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,864
I am going to get it only for the history of Texas. It has a "neat" factor to me and the lever issue is just part of the game.
__________________
10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!
Peter M. Eick is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 04:05 PM   #27
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Improved Walker/Whitneyville Dragoon

You may mean the Whitneyville Dragoon 7 1/2" bbl. That was the First improve version made from Walker frames and parts, then 1848 1st Model, 1850 2nd Model, 1851 3rd Model.
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 04:13 PM   #28
mec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2001
Posts: 1,530
Texas Connections:


The Paterson and the Walker which were both Texas phenomena and (bottom) the dragoon that spread all over the place.

Last edited by mec; August 28, 2010 at 09:22 PM.
mec is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 04:17 PM   #29
Peter M. Eick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 3, 1999
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,864
Mec,

You probably cover this in your book (just ordered it but it wont be here for a week), so could you correct me if I am in error here:

Cabela's Walker (I will call and verify that it is Uberti).
Walker powder flask.
Walker Nipple Wrench
TC Natural Bore Butter
Tedd Cash Capper for pistol.

These are the two I am unsure of:

Hornady Swaged Round Balls .44 cal .451 diameter?
Cabela's vegetable fiber wads 45 caliber, .462 diameter .060 thickness?


Finally, I was going to source powder/caps locally. I know I can get pyrodex P at bass Pro shops, but the caps I am unsure of. What size/brand do you recommend?

Thanks in advance.
__________________
10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!
Peter M. Eick is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 04:36 PM   #30
mec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2001
Posts: 1,530
The ubertis are usable with .451, 454 or .457 balls but sometimes the 451s will walk under recoil.- they work better in the somewhat tighter Pietta chambers. The .454s are the best bet. I use Remington #11 or #10 with 10 usually offering the best fit. CCI #10s can be a bit tight but their #11s are about the same size as a #10 remington. The periperals all sound good. I've found the various cappers more tedious to use than just thumbing them on. The adjustible powder flask I have is supposed to adjust from circa 30 to 50 grains. In actual fact, when set for the maximum charge, it throws charges ranging from 30-34 grains. This is way sort of a full chamber for either bullets or balls in the Walker but will probably work with Lee conicals in the shorter dragoon. Spouts are available for the various powder measure/flasks but I usually use a tube measure 55 grains is a nice full charge with the walker while 60 is do-able if the chamber is clean or you put some lubricant on the ball.

The nipple wrench I use is one of those wooden handled screwdriver types. I have the Walker Combination tool and the nipple wrench functions fine. It is a bit narrow to use as a bonified spring compressor and the screwdriver is overlarge as sent. I may tool it down later.

When I disassemble the Walker for cleaning, I cock the hammer and tie the mainspring to the front grip frame then let down the hammer to take the tension off. I leave it tied that way for re-mounting and clean and lubricate the spring/triggerguard/front strap separately. (The walker has a curved/spring unlike the other colt types)
mec is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 04:37 PM   #31
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Early Colts

Here's my two Early Colts...
1836 Colt Texas Paterson 9"bbl. (Pietta)

1848 3rd generation Signature Model 1st Model Dragoon (came from Colt with serialized oval trigger guard, oval bolt & oval cutout frame,oval cylinder locks)

And a collection I wish I had...
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 04:48 PM   #32
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Early Colts

Pete,that Uberti Walker from cabelas may take at least .454's my Colt like .457's but I'm sure it'll take .454. The Lee mold .452's I made are a bit loose, go in too easy if you follow my meanin'. Maybe check the chambers with a dial capiler before you buy , or just get a box of each. I wouldn't want ya out there with your new Iron and have yur balls fallin out Anyway hope that helps. Most guys I know with Walkers or Dragoons use rhe .454 or .457. Somebody correct me if i am wrong.
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

Last edited by Smokin_Gun; December 12, 2005 at 08:34 PM.
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 04:57 PM   #33
mec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2001
Posts: 1,530
sounds right to me. The 457s are a real swaging job but work. All my uberti .44s measure .450 at the chamber mouths- as close as I can read a caliper- same for balls and bullets I have tapped through. Dixie says they are .449" which may be right. All I know for sure is that whatever the odd ten thousanths, they shoot little bitty groups.
mec is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 05:11 PM   #34
Old Dragoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2005
Location: The Republic of Californi
Posts: 581
Mec,
I just realized that I had talked to you on another forum about the Walker. I was going to buy a Walker Whitneyville Dragoon and convert it....bought the '58 rem.s instead. Still want that Whitneyville though. A walker is a might too heavy for my small hands. "58 Rem better, but none like the '51 Navy.

SG
I have always wanted a Patterson. When we get thoghter to shoot (wow! today would have been a good day, no wind and warm) We need to bring all our artillery..LOL (That'd be my two '58's and all your bp guns.....LOL, ROFLMAO!) I'll bring a can of Elephant BP. 2FG or 3FG?

I really do get a kick out of loading 40 grns in my '58's and having at it. One guy asked me. "Is that some kind of Magnum? I said "Yes 1858 Remington BP 40 grn.s of BP Magnum."
Old Dragoon is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 05:32 PM   #35
Peter M. Eick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 3, 1999
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,864
Thanks guys. I changed my order to 454 in the wish list. I will call my local friendly dealer tomorrow to see if they have one in stock. If not, Cabelas here we come.

I have been wanting to get a Walker for a few years now and also a Henry Iron frame. I looked at a Henry Iron frame (Uberti/Cimarron) today and something did not feel right. I figured I better regroup first and get the Walker in the mean time.
__________________
10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!
Peter M. Eick is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 05:34 PM   #36
Remington kid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2005
Location: South Central West Virginia
Posts: 612
Peter, Please believe me when I say you don't need an Uberti to have a great Walker or any other revolver. The Piettas today are just as good and in some cases they are better. There was a time that Uberti had a better finish and better fit all the way around but that's no longer true. Awhile back Pietta installed all new machinery in there factory and have come a long way in the direction of being equal or better than Uberti.
Remington kid is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 05:51 PM   #37
mec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2001
Posts: 1,530
Is Pietta making a Walker now??? Seems like the only ones are Uberti and Palmetto.

Jack Hays was 5'8" and not very heavy. I bet a walker did look big with him holding it. He was a surveyor by trade and after the War, went to California and laid out the city of San Diego.
During the negotiations over the Whitneyville Walker, Colt and S. Walker got a bit put out with each other and Colt transfered his affections to J.C. Hays. Hays ended up with the first issue of walkers and the bulk of the first 500. There were 180 left over for Walker's C-company.
mec is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 06:11 PM   #38
Steve499
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Central Missouri
Posts: 533
Here I go again with the chamber-land-groove diameter thing. I had intended to get a dragoon (Uberti) from Dixie but decided against it due to the printed dimensions showing the chamber diameter (.449) was smaller than the groove diameter (.456). The lands are shown at .440. The Walker was worse. It's chamber diameter and land diameter was the same as the dragoon's but the groove diameter was shown at .466. I don't know how much the deformation of the .009 the ball is larger than the lands would fill the .007 it's smaller than the grooves (dragoon) or for the Walker, .017. Does it matter? I want to be told it don't. I still want a dragoon but I had a bad experience or two with guns you couldn't get a group at all out of, even when it wasn't me shooting, and want to cover as many bases as possible to have some accuracy. The Pietta Remington showed the same dimensions for chamber and grooves and turned out to be quite accurate.

Steve
Steve499 is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 06:25 PM   #39
Remington kid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2005
Location: South Central West Virginia
Posts: 612
Mec. I'm not sure if they do or not. I was told a while back that they were going too. Just something for Peter to check into. If they do then it will probably be cheaper than Uberti's.
Remington kid is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 08:07 PM   #40
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Screw the Bore Size It's a Walker

Steve if you really want a Walker don't sweat the .010 Walkers are just damn accurate.A Friend of mine reams his chambers and shoots .460 balls, but I don't do it I leave um alone. I believe it would be more accurate probly but I like the way they shoot just like they are. If it bothers you get the Whitneyville or the First model Dragoon...Between the Almost 5 lb. Walker and the 4.1 lb. Dragoon I choose a Dragoon... My 1st model Dragoon is dead accurate...even with .45LC and the R&D, so which ever you want most, diameters or the choice of a Walker and the improved Walker, the Dragoon...it's only preferance. I watch the Numbers too, but a Dragoon ain't my fast draw gun...My 1858's and My 1860 & 1851 are...
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 08:41 PM   #41
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Old Dragoon I normally shoot FFFg Goex...but FFg or Elephant are fine too..I just don't shoot anything but "Holy Black" yes I am a true Darksider a Lord of Darkness. Some call me a Traditionalist, jus' cause I like to do it just how it was done. Haven't Lost any body parts, blown up any Revs, buldged any barrels, or loosened any arbors. So I figure I'll keep doin' what I been doin' for 20 some years.
Oh and I'll bring as many as you want
ifin you help clean what ya shoot...LoL!
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 10:21 PM   #42
mec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2001
Posts: 1,530
Granted that I am only semi-skilled with a caliper but I believe that the measurements Dixie quotes are a bit off. I don't do much bench grouping but when I do....




and even off the bench some times
mec is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 10:23 PM   #43
Old Dragoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2005
Location: The Republic of Californi
Posts: 581
SG,
Y'ALL can believe this or don't I have never fired a BP weapon without real BP.
I 'member back when all the synthethics came about, was offered a pound tin of Pyrodex or some such. turned it down cause I was setting on 50 Lbs of Dupont, 25 each 3f and 2f.

Now I have shot/will shoot smokeless in my '58 conversion, but didn't like the unburnt powder thing. Just shredded the target at 15 yards indoors. I will work on the load. These were purchased loaded with 5 grn.s Unique, no filler. I think that the fact that there was no filler (dacron fiber is my choice) is maybe one reason
for the unburnt powder. I use just enough filler to make sure the powder isconcentrated at the bottom of the case near the primer. Just a wisp.
I load 44 mags the same way.
Old Dragoon is offline  
Old December 13, 2005, 12:05 AM   #44
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
I might one day try a substitute...I tried Pyrodex it gets just as dirty and smells worse tha Holy Black, it's squishy and not as consistant as BP from my tests. Has no flame to speak of I didn't see one, no snap to it. I just like BP better its always worked great and never had trouble with a volumetric load, in accuracy or safety. I won't use Unique or even 777 I am a traditionalits like I told you. And it really ain't safe...Loose a finger or an eye using BP with a Pietta they will probably make it right with you plus a new gun or two, along with your insurance company covering you...Have that happen using anything other than BP in a gun that clearly states "BLACK POWDER ONLY" guess what you may be on your own. Jus' a couple of my reasons and besides I have more fun using Black Powder. I have done more than my share of live cartridge fire, and alot of reloading to include lets say inconspicuos long range objectives.
I can relax pour BP into a brass case press or tap a bullet down an tis ready to go. But Like I said that's just me. I fully undrstand the fun of ballistic science and applaud and read all of it. I just like to shoot alot
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 13, 2005, 01:03 AM   #45
Old Dragoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2005
Location: The Republic of Californi
Posts: 581
SG,
Gotcha on that. That's one reason I wanted to use the "Real" 44 Rem Conv. Load. in preference to the 45LC, Got nothing agin the 45LC I just wanted my conversion to be correct for the first Rem Conversions.(44 CF, 44 RF and 46RF) Rem also loaded this same cartridge for Colts.

The smokeless 44 Rem were purchased. I bought 2 boxes of them. I pulled one box and reloaded with 30 Grn' FFG. I just didn't care for all the unburnt powder. Cleaner? Yes, but there sure is somehting about the same cartridge loaded with BP.

One thing I noticed with the conversion cylinder, is that after 10 or so shots it didn't want to turn...I remembered something someone told me about spit being a good BP cleaner. I popped the cylinder out spit on both ends and the recoil ring, the cylinder pin, reloaded and shot 10 more. Probably should have swabed the bore too but I didn't.

I just got my 44 Rem. reload order from Old West tonight. so I'll be loading up some 44 Rem. this week.
Old Dragoon is offline  
Old December 13, 2005, 01:51 AM   #46
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Old Dragoon...just keep a little contain of oil in your pocket like those you get with an air drill or grinder. I use Bore Butter on the pins mostly, and inside I use olive oil...I don't have any problems...dry i get 1 cyl. and the Pateron starts bindin, bore butter and a wipe off every time it reload...no problem. Rems, I lube pin with BB and use lube pills and can shoot all day and I have 3 cylinder. Pin pulls out fine it don't stick. Colts lube arbor reload 3 times pull the Cyl. wipe off soft fouling (soft from bore butter) thin coat of BB keep shootin...lube lills keep barrel clean/soft, season bbl/lube it. Maintains better/more consistant accuracy. That target I showed the last group over the X . Those were my last shots of the day about 40 rounds C&B and 25 cartridge type. Was still on the money. I swear by T/C Natural Lube 1000 Bore Butter.


I can't wait to see that .44 -40 conversion... load up a bunch ok? LoL!
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old December 13, 2005, 08:45 AM   #47
Old Dragoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2005
Location: The Republic of Californi
Posts: 581
SG,
My conversion is 44 Rem. I can't do 40 grns in 44 mag cases...just 38 grn. but with the .248 grn bullet they stick out the mouth of the chamber. The 44 Colt cases get 30 grns., the 44 S&W spl. case can load 35 grns.
The original 44 Rem load in the 44 Colt case was between 28 and 30 grns., not sure what it was. but the 44 Rem in the colt case is pretty formidable looking and it is big and slow. The only way I can use 44 mag cases is when I convert the BP cylinder to Cartridge the added of that cylinder allows the use of that length case that particular bullet. Old west makes 3 lighter heeled bullets for the 44 Rem. that are shorter. A 165 grn.,210 Grn and a .215 Grn. All are .451 Dia X.429 Dia heel.
When I ordered my 44 Rem. crimp die I had it made to accomodate 44 Colt, 44 spl, and 44 mag cases.

That being said, it is neat to shoot an original load for the 44 Rem conversions (discontinued in 1895) and the 44 Rem 1875 Rem. They look great in the belt of my rig too. I really want to work the load for this cartridge to be as accurate as possible. Heeled bullets are hard to get accuracy with, so more grns may not be the way to go. There was some loading data that came with my order that stated 28 grns. Goex FFG gives 620 FPS

I had Old West print up some of their 44 Rem. labels to go on the Cheyenne cartridge boxes. The 44 WCF boxes are a great fit for the 44 Rem load. I now have Original type labels for the sides, ends and tops for ten cartridge boxes. They look pretty cool too.
Old Dragoon is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 01:41 AM   #48
gmatov
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2005
Posts: 346
Mec,

A couple posts back you said the ASM Walker had, I think, "quite a few " problems. Is this from any particular date, like in 1987 they went to "bottom line" instead of quality control?

Regardless, the Gun Works has all parts in stock. They could, I think, be made good.

What is the value of an ASM Walker in "good" condition? I ask because I have seen a couple for what "might" be reasonable prices. What is "too high" to pay? 200, 250, 300?

Heck, I haven't looked, wasn't that interested, what is the going rate for a "new" Walker?

Haven't got your book. My B&N didn't have it in stock last night (Mon).

The pic where you are shooting APP powder, was it taken after the smoke cleared? My last shoot, APP makes tons of smoke that smells bad, 777 makes less smoke, but it doesn't smell as bad. APP doesn't smell like BP, it just stinks like "What the heck is burning?"

Also, how about an 1863 Rem, by Pietta, 31 cal., brass frame, spur trigger, for some of those who are looking for a "pocket pistol"? What are they worth, "listed" at 215, price is now at 135, 9 units at Dutch style, 6 bucks shipping. Hey, it's a little pistol, weighs less. I know they're brass, don't know if there was an original brass model, but still Pietta, mebbe from before they cleaned up their act, as RK says they did when they went to new machinery.

Questions, questions, questions. If you don't know, ask the man who wrote the book.

Cheers,

George
gmatov is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 09:00 PM   #49
mec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2001
Posts: 1,530
No experience with the small pietta. I also don't know the fulsome history of ASM. They were making some very pretty, lightly sprung Single Action Army clones a few years ago and that is about the time they went broke. the Dragoon Bates has is at least ten years old - he had to do a lot of work to get it shooting. Others have similar complaints to the one''s I outlined,- unfitted parts and peculiar dimensions. I do not keep up with current prices on the guns but I do know that the current Piettas and Ubertis of various types can be had from just over two hundred to a bit under 300 for the walkers and dragoons - from a number of sources.

As to the book. it is a limited interest subject and not a product of the usual industry sources that produce books on the subject. You will not find it in a book store. Your bookstore can order it and it is available online from B&N, Amazon, Hastings and several smaller dealers.

In compiling the book, I made or attempted contacts with a number of sources. I found several reliable sources for Uberti parts and service, far fewer from Pietta and very little in the way of useful or helpful information from the company- though a couple of their guns did perform very well. Palmetto would not even answer correspondence. Some people have had luck fitting Pietta action parts gotten from VTI gunparts to their ASM revolvers. Bates fitted some generic parts to his- no indication of where they came from but very likely Dixie.
mec is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 09:44 PM   #50
Remington kid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2005
Location: South Central West Virginia
Posts: 612
Mec, Cabels sells a replacement parts kit for the guns they sell but they don't advertise it. I found this out when I called them years ago and ask to talk to someone about there BP revolvers. They put me in touch with a guy at Cabelas who was very helpfull at the time and he gave me the order number . A parts kit for a 1858 Remington .44 was about $18.00 and included all the springs , hammer and trigger and all the internal parts . There was no screws with the kit . Anyway. MP1423 just orderd the kit for his Remington the other day from Cabelas with the number I gave him and the price is still just under $18.00.
The hammer alone on some of these parts places cost much more than that.The two Remingtons I bought from them are both Piettas and I have had no problems at all. Just smoothed up the action and a little polishing here and there and they are really great well fitted revolvers.
Remington kid is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13674 seconds with 7 queries