The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 3, 2005, 03:20 PM   #1
filmbeargun
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2005
Posts: 10
12g slugs for stopping Grizzlies and Polar bears

All: I am putting together a bear gun over the winter, so I wonder what the consensus is for 12g slugs from a smooth bore 18-20inch barrel for immobilizing a Grizzly or Polar bear by breaking major bones?

This is for close-range defensive use only, (less than 25M/yds) a very different task than bear hunting from a distance.

Evidently, good preventative measures like smell signature control, bear-proof food containers, perimeter electric fences and alarms and choice/use of terrain, crack flares and bear spray (OC), and using rubber slug to discourage curious yearling bears at 50M/yds, mean that shooting a bear is unlikely, but if I have to, what are the best slugs to use?

I have heard of Brenneke slugs, but I am unsure exactly what this means...

I will be using slugs in a 6 or 8 shot Mossberg 590 or 590A1, with Ghost Ring or red dot sights, as that is what I am shopping for now, second-hand, in Canada.


I am importing a Knoxx SpecOps stock to ease the pain of all this, so shooting 3" slugs may also be an option.

Any cartridges you reccommend would have to be available off-the-shelf locally, as shipping costs are very high here, in North-West Canada, North of 60.

I really need to know what people are using!

filmbeargun
filmbeargun is offline  
Old December 3, 2005, 04:32 PM   #2
mathman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 15, 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,531
Slugs are OK for bears, but rifles are better...they penetrate more and are more accurate. The advatage of a slug gun is the faster follow up shots (which can be very important) and the fact that they cost a lot less (for the guns and the ammo). You definitely want to use 3" mags and the heaviest slug you can get (at least 1 1/4 oz).
__________________
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.
mathman is offline  
Old December 3, 2005, 05:03 PM   #3
psycho nut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 479
For the distance that you specified I think that a 3 inch slug is a good choice, especially with 6/8 shots it would be a very good choice, yes rifles penitrate better but you would have to work the bolt or whatever action you chose and the pump is probably going to be faster and you will have more shots.

nutty's 2¢
__________________
I can't spel.
psycho nut is offline  
Old December 3, 2005, 05:07 PM   #4
DPris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2004
Posts: 4,612
Brenneke slugs are harder (higher antimony content), resist breaking up & flattening, have a much more efficient cookie-cutter nose profile than the rounded Foster style, tend to be pretty accurate, and are among the best shotgun slugs in world.
Just ask your local dealers if they carry the brand, if not, look until you find some.
Denis
DPris is offline  
Old December 3, 2005, 11:27 PM   #5
gordo b.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2002
Location: Peoples republik of Calif.
Posts: 963
Brenneke slugs,in the ORIGINAL type, are the shiznit and 2 3/4 ones are just as good (and more contollable,cheaper ect) as 3" ones!
gordo b. is offline  
Old December 4, 2005, 01:09 AM   #6
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 11,116
I have read that the fish & game people in bear country normally carry 12 ga pumps full of Brennekes. They are light, cheap, and powerful. Might be a little scant on penetration. I have heard good things about Remington Copper Solid slugs but they may call for a rifled barrel, I don't know.

I'd rather a .45-70 with the big loads but they are more expensive and maybe less versatile than a shotgun.
Jim Watson is online now  
Old December 4, 2005, 02:51 AM   #7
expeditionx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2004
Posts: 330
Here is a gov publication for civilians with defense from bear attacks in mind.
Various calibers tested for penetration.
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf
expeditionx is offline  
Old December 4, 2005, 04:22 PM   #8
filmbeargun
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2005
Posts: 10
Thanks all!

While I am no expert, the US Forestry Service, Juneau, Alaska, site listed in the posting above, makes some interesting observations on penetration of various projectiles at 15yd/M into a bear hide simulator made of wet silt and sawdust.

Penetration of 1oz 12g 2 3/4" slugs is listed as 15 inches, right up there with the .458 Magnum rifle round, albeit with much less velocity.

For short range use, I am convinced that 12 g slugs are the way to go!
filmbeargun is offline  
Old December 4, 2005, 06:14 PM   #9
expeditionx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2004
Posts: 330
http://www.westernalaskahunting.com/grizzly_hunts.htm
http://www.adventuresinthewild.com/b...ing-alaska.htm
Just looking at that thing encourages me to buy a .50 bmg rifle.
They have been killed with 45-70 400 grain loads at 1300 fps in the past but when your life is on the line bigger caliber is better. 50 BMG is cheaper since you can buy surplus rounds for 1 to 2 dollars each vs. 2 to 3 dollars for a good 45-70 bear round like buffalo bore or $5 a round for a .458 win magnum
factory round.
50 BMG would be the most effective defense round on a grizzly, brown bear, or polar bear.
Heres a company that sells a quality .50 BMG for only 2100 dollars
http://www.serbu.com/
Barrett rifles are great too but the least expensive single shot is
$3600
http://www.barrettrifles.com/
http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifles/rifles_99.htm

If it was me, I would have the .50 BMG for my primary defense and for a back up a remington 870 marine magnum loaded with breneke 3 inch slugs packing about 600 grains of lead at 1500 fps. These slugs are much denser that other brands and penetrate very well.
http://www.brenneke.de/brenneke_engl/web/start.html
expeditionx is offline  
Old December 4, 2005, 11:09 PM   #10
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Some thoughts

Quote:
Might be a little scant on penetration........
Brenneke's are not scant on penetration. Foster slugs are made of soft lead so the hollow base can expand so they don't rattle down the bore. The hollow base keeps the weight forward for stabilization. Some swear by them for critters the size of black bear or deer.

Brennekes are hard, with either a felt stabilizer secured to the base with a screw, as in their 2 3/4" 1 1/8 oz, or a plastic arrangement used in the 1oz. I'm referring to Rottweil brand Brennekes. The attached stabilizers stay with the slug and go into the target.

A Brenneke may go into a target at .72 cal and come out the same size. If you had heavy bones to go through and you had a shotgun, then Brennekes will give you the penetration you may need. Only the Sabot is capable of deeper penetration. The Rottweils chrono'd at 1375fps for the 1oz, and 1340 for the 1 1/8 load. This from my 18" Scattergun Tech. They are fairly pleasant to shoot--unlike Federal Classics (Foster type), which belt me pretty good and chrono at 1495 fps.

Against something that could eat me for breakfast, I might consider 3" Brennekes and make sure I could shoot them rapidly, though I wouldn't feel underarmed with 2.75".
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old December 5, 2005, 01:58 AM   #11
BobK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2005
Posts: 838
Another vote for the Brenneke. They are very hard and retain most of their weight. They penentrate very well. Shot one against a steel back stop at an indoor range. The slug pancaked but held together.
BobK is offline  
Old December 6, 2005, 09:24 PM   #12
SeekHer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2005
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 295
The brand name of Brenneke is very good, but so are a lot of others...You may use them BUT only as a last resort...and you might want to follow up the second slug with 2 to 4, 00 or 000 or 0000 buckshot loads but don't go any lower in size than 00...this is 2,000+ lbs of enraged muscle and you want all the shock value you can get...buckshot does have the ability to spread its load over a greater area, causing more surface damage but at some penetration loss.

Better check on the legality of that stock in Canada (folding stocks, collapsing stocks some, but not all, of both are illegal)...

Get yourself some "Banger" shells, make that a lot...they shoot out an exploding sound blast which when they go off scare the bears away...they work very, very well...we go through 75 to 125 a season at the lodge...then again we are on a polar bear migratory route...

You had better be almost in the jaws of that bear before you shoot, because if Environment Canada deems that it was not a legal shoot, you're screwed...they will confiscate ALL of your belongings (maybe return them), fine you and possible jail term...
__________________
There is a certain type of mentality that thinks if you make certain inanimate objects illegal their criminal misuse will disappear!

When the human race dies out, it will be because it was brainwashed to be so totally, completely, utterly safe that it no longer dared to keep on living
SeekHer is offline  
Old December 6, 2005, 09:54 PM   #13
SeekHer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2005
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 295
Quote:
Just looking at that thing encourages me to buy a .50 bmg rifle.
They have been killed with 45-70 400 grain loads at 1300 fps in the past but when your life is on the line bigger caliber is better. 50 BMG is cheaper since you can buy surplus rounds for 1 to 2 dollars each vs. 2 to 3 dollars for a good 45-70 bear round like buffalo bore or $5 a round for a .458 win magnum
factory round.
50 BMG would be the most effective defense round on a grizzly, brown bear, or polar bear.
Heres a company that sells a quality .50 BMG for only 2100 dollars
http://www.serbu.com/
Barrett rifles are great too but the least expensive single shot is
$3600
http://www.barrettrifles.com/
http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifles/rifles_99.htm

If it was me, I would have the .50 BMG for my primary defense and for a back up a remington 870 marine magnum loaded with breneke 3 inch slugs packing about 600 grains of lead at 1500 fps. These slugs are much denser that other brands and penetrate very well.
http://www.brenneke.de/brenneke_engl/web/start.html
Good idea, except that it weighs around 35 pounds, twice the length of any "normal" rifle, much harder to manoeuvre, those surplus rounds are FMJ and will go right through a bear without any damage and most importantly, they are illegal in Canada...Oh, and I can buy two to four rifles or shotguns for the cost of one .50 BMG and a box of 25 shotgun shells for the cost of 5 shells...don’t get me wrong, I really like the .50 but not as a carry around hunting rifle…

I'd suggest buying a drilling before a .50 maybe a 9.3x74 with 12G, sorry, those are S/S doubles with a single barrel beneath...can be shotgun over rifle or vice versa...

The best bear caliber is the one that, if with all the extra recoil, you can shoot well...if that is a bolt action .300 Win Mag, .358 Win Mag, .325 WSM, .375 H&H Mag, 9.3 X 62 etc. it don't matter...what matters is the ability to place 1 or 2 or 3 shots into the vitals without the fear of when you pull the trigger excessive recoil scares you and causes flinching...

I carry a .425 Westley Richards bolt gun and one of my partners carries a Z-Hat 1895 Winchester lever rifle in .375 Scoville-Hawk and the other a Marlin lever action in .45/70 Gov. and we don’t feel that under-gunned in any way and these guns are never more than inches away from our hands at all times…and I mean AT ALL times...we also have an electrified perimeter fence with shoot up flares mounted to all the fence posts as an additional warning device and if you're going into polar bear country that is one of the most important items to get and maintain...
__________________
There is a certain type of mentality that thinks if you make certain inanimate objects illegal their criminal misuse will disappear!

When the human race dies out, it will be because it was brainwashed to be so totally, completely, utterly safe that it no longer dared to keep on living
SeekHer is offline  
Old December 9, 2005, 04:41 AM   #14
106RR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2002
Posts: 226
If you can't find Brenneke slugs in Canada you might want to try Remington Buckhammers. I believe Canadian Tire and other discount stores carry Remington Ammo.
There is a write up on the Buckhammers at <www.stoppingpower.net> click on forums - click on Test Bed then search for slugs.
Most authorities use Brenneke, the Buckhammer is new.
106RR is offline  
Old December 11, 2005, 09:10 PM   #15
jdm92584
Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2005
Posts: 52
i dont have any experience with em but those remington buckhammers sound nasty. its a REALLY heavy slug.
__________________
"shoot straight and dont trackem"my dad
my toys
bulgarian makarov in 9x18
mossberg 695 sluggun in 12ga
remington 760 in 30.06
ted williams edition polychoke 12ga pump from sears
yugo sks
remington model 81 semiauto 35
44bp by traditions
54 bp rifle by traditions
nef .410 i got at 12
22 stevens
marlin model 60 22
35 leveraction marlin 336
jdm92584 is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 02:41 PM   #16
bclark1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,531
i don't understand why people like rifles more. it's not like a bear's skin is going to stop a slug. or is someone going to claim it's tougher than ballistic glass? i'd probably bring a 45/70 levergun, .44 mag if i had to be absolutely light, but if weight was no issue and depending on the versatility i needed from a gun in the bush i'd probably go with one of my super-mag chambered shotguns.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot6.htm
bclark1 is offline  
Old December 12, 2005, 11:23 PM   #17
ammunition-man
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2005
Posts: 59
protection from bears

I would not use any slugs smaller than a 12 ga 3-1/2 inch slugs
better safe than sorry
ammunition-man is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 09:54 AM   #18
Dixie Slugs
Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2004
Posts: 24
Well now! There have been some interesting answers posted here, but I wonder how much is based ao actual experience.
The British solved this problem man years ago with the famous Paradox 12 bore (some bigger) firearms. The original blackpowder load was a hard .730"-730 gr solid slug/bullet at a velocity of 1000'/". Later on the smokeless load went to 1200'/"
With today's rifled barrel and modern pump guns we have an ultra bore rifle on a shotgun frame. This becomes the ideal close in setup for dangerous game...if loaded with the proper ammo. Soft slugs is not the answer and even the Brenneke is not quite hard enough. What is needed the a .730"-730 gr hard cast alloy slug/bullet that is heat treated. These can be found at Dixie Slugs.
John Linebaugh/Todd Corder tested the Terminator (1200'/"), the Express (1300'/"), and the Xterminator (1400'/") in the "Bone Box" and got up to 30"+ penetration without blowning up the slug!. These are designed for rifled barrels.
Take a look at Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com) or contact James Gates (jcgates@bellsouth.net) for more details.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg tusker.JPG (44.6 KB, 271 views)
__________________
Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Original Terminator Slug
Dixie Slugs is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 06:47 PM   #19
44magshooter
Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2005
Posts: 19
good choice, myself I would have went with an 8 shot remington 870 or ihaca 37, but thats just me. remington sluggers shoot good. I have heard of alternating slugs and buckshot for charging bear, I'm not sure if your planning on using this as a defense gun or as a primary close range weapon. good luck, and keep us updated.

.44MS

P.S a remington 7600 in 30-06 sprg. would work good aswell.
PSS, if you were using this gun for defense i'd refrain from using a red dot, batteries die at the worst moments, and also, in the adrenaline you may forget to flip on the switch, not that you'd really have time to turn in on anyway.
44magshooter is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 07:39 PM   #20
OneInTheChamber
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2005
Posts: 789
if i had to face down a bear, all i'd need is around a 9mm.

that's cause i'm not shootin the bear...............


---->
__________________
Insert witty, comical, and/or significant quote here.
OneInTheChamber is offline  
Old December 16, 2005, 12:51 AM   #21
roy reali
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2005
Posts: 3,248
45-70 Gov't

The above referenced article on the suitablility and effectiveness of different cartridges on bear was interesting. The text mentioned that the .45-70 would be more effective if better bullets were available.

Wouldn't reloaders have the answer to this?

They have more projectiles available and can crank up the the velocity in a strong rifle.

They left out an important cartridge too.

The .17HMR. That round could really teach a bear a lesson.
roy reali is offline  
Old December 16, 2005, 12:56 AM   #22
mathman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 15, 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,531
Quote:
The .17HMR. That round could really teach a bear a lesson.
Huh?
__________________
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.
mathman is offline  
Old December 16, 2005, 02:20 AM   #23
expeditionx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2004
Posts: 330
If all you had was a 17 HMR your only chance might be to shoot both bear eyes out. The 17 HMR into a bears eye would destroy eye tissue pretty bad its actually perfect for that tactic. Buck shot might be good for such a thing too. If you can hit clays with a shotgun a bears eye is smaller.
Whatever it takes to keep you alive i guess.
The you can get a real bear caliber and end the bear misery.
expeditionx is offline  
Old December 16, 2005, 07:00 PM   #24
OneInTheChamber
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2005
Posts: 789
honestly, i'd get the biggest, heaviest, fastest slug i could. A shorty shotgun will be easier to take with you (cause the big .50 bmg you left in the truck does squat when a bear is after you) and you can but quite a few rounds in one with an extended tube.


Just remember, you don't have to outrun the bear, just the slowest person your with.
__________________
Insert witty, comical, and/or significant quote here.
OneInTheChamber is offline  
Old December 16, 2005, 07:00 PM   #25
OneInTheChamber
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2005
Posts: 789
how about the .416 rubgy round. I saw one at the range.... it's around 400 grains.
__________________
Insert witty, comical, and/or significant quote here.

Last edited by OneInTheChamber; December 16, 2005 at 09:56 PM.
OneInTheChamber is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13194 seconds with 8 queries